Tuesday, August 04, 2009

"No Loaded Guns"

In the comments section at Unc's, I wrote:
At most gun shops I’ve been in, a “No Loaded Guns” sign is purely a CYA measure, so that if Lurleen brings her Mossberg in to be fixed and accidentally lets fly some buckshot through the wainscoting, there’s a sign to point at during any subsequent insurance wrangling or legal contretemps.
The Pawnbroker brought up something similar in comments here:
fla was early to the concealed-carry dance, but even predating that, and much more so since, on the front door of pretty much every licensed premises (ffl) you'll see a bold-lettered sign "no loaded firearms".

now in the pre-permit days it was fairly easy to defend such as a simple reminder to unload weapons being brought in to sell, pawn, trade, etc...
But he also went on to explain the flip side to this CYA policy:
..it brings into focus just how often the need for permit holders to unload -or offload- their weapon in the car before they can enter these premises unnecessarily endangers everyone in the vicinity, as manipulating mags, slides, and cylinders requires much touching. and though some anti's would have you believe the very presence of guns can cause random carnage even when they're safely in their holsters, it's all that touching that can result in an n.d.

30 comments:

Bgg said...

Tam -

I always thought it had something to do with the odd "sideways" glances the Sturmtruppen employees give as I belly up with my targets and backers and fish for my ID cards. I percieve that they always deem EVERYTHING a potential threat - all employees open carry in the store and look to ventilate any ne'er do well thief or crackhead that might happen by.

Anonymous said...

"it's all that touching that can result in an n.d."

Or AD. Everytime, every single time you load a self-loading pistol (or other weapons with inertia firing pins) there is a chance of an accidential discharge. Mine was with an 870 shotgun.

It does not matter if everyone who attends Eagle Creek has 600+ hours of gun school, by having people jack with their guns, the chance of discharges that you do not intend is present.

Shootin' Buddy

bob said...

We have one of those signs on the door where I work, and the reason it is there is so one of the clerks doesn't get killed. I am tempted to say that if you do not know how to manipulate your gun properly get some training. Conceding Shooting Buddy's point that ADs can happen, there is a reason for Rule #2 which, if followed, would alleviate the necessity for having the sign on the door.
Bob Hamlyn

Nat said...

I have informed the shop that I frequent that I will be in violation of their sign each and every time I come in. If they have a problem with that, I can take my folding green stuff to someone with a slightly tougher constitution.

The answer I got, was so long as I come to their aid, they won't mind.

Caleb said...

I must confess that I don't follow the posted "no loaded guns" when I'm going to Beech Grove or another gun shop. Primarily because I don't plan on pulling my heater in the shop, so instead of futzing with it in my car, I just let it stay holstered and concealed.

Tam said...

Bob,

Is your parking lot on your premises?

Do you think that if one of your customers puts a bullet through their foot while clearing their weapon on your property to comply with your police that they won't turn your sky legal-pad yellow?

How many guns have you ever seen spontaneously discharge while holstered?

The safest place for a loaded gun is in a holster, not in somebody's GOT-DAMNED HANDS. Why is that point so hard for some people to frickin' grasp?

Tam said...

nb. "police" should be "policy".

David said...

Our local gun shop (the only one in town with a store front) has a sign hanging inside the store that says "Legal carrying of loaded firearms is encouraged on these premises."

Now this is in Kalifornia so the only way someone could legally carry a loaded weapon into the store is if they have a CCW. Otherwise any weapon being carried into the store, legally, must be unloaded.

On the other hand the physical therapist that my daughter was seeing a while back has a sign on their door "No Guns Allowed". I took perverse delight in sitting in their therapy room surrounded by their patients and therapists reading either my monthly copy of the American Rifleman, or "The .45-70 Springfield" by Joe Poyer while they tortured my daughter.

I got a lot of dirty looks, but one day one of the other patients asked about the book. We started a conversation about our own trapdoor 73s that we eventually drew three other people into. And ended with me offering to take my daughter's therapist out to the range that weekend. That's when her boss interupted, trying to derail the conversation. So the other patient invited him to go to the range. The whole thing blew up when the boss stammered, stuttered and exclaimed "I will NOT go out and shoot a gun." To which the patient replied "Whats the matter? You Chicken?"

He was a nice guy, just not necessarily a poster child for discretion.

Anonymous said...

"I am tempted to say that if you do not know how to manipulate your gun properly get some training."

Therein lies the problem, the more experience one has with firearms the more likely one is to have an AD while loading because of mechanical failure or ammo out of spec.

If one has not seen an AD from loading or unloading, then loading/unloading in the parking lot (as suggested to me twice in one month at 2 different ranges) is no big deal. However, if one has an obama of hours at gun skul, then one is more likely to familiar with the unjustifiable danger of jacking with guns when it is unneeded.

Shootin' Buddy

Tam said...

Yup. I'll never forget when the teensy spring in the firing pin safety on my downstairs neighbor's P7M8 failed.

He dropped the slide to load it and was rewarded with a "*BANG!*". Scrupulous adherence to the four rules meant that the round went skidding along the wall of his gun safe, off the wall, and back onto the floor, rather than hitting anything squishy and important.

Jake (formerly Riposte3) said...

Funny, my local gun shop has several signs posted at the entrance and throughout the store:

"Employees and Customers may be armed."

Needless to say, I take shameless advantage of that permission whenever I go there.

Weer'd Beard said...

Not to mention the dangers when somebody takes a gun safely stored on their hip, and locks it in an untended steel box with big glass windows.

Sadly if I am entering a place that bars me from carrying I'll just leave my gun at home rather than run that added risk of it being snatched in a smash-and-grab.

karrde said...

I've seen a local gunshop which very pointedly forbids handling any weapons away from the counter area.

Said gunshop also has an indoors range, and it is a nice facility. All the employees are carrying heaters on their hips.

About the only downside is that you can't compare-and-contrast weapons with your buddy while you're in the shop area, and waiting for your slot on the range to open up.

That big Mountain Of Goose store in the area has a sign about not bringing in loaded weapons, with a footnote saying that this doesn't apply to CCW-permittees who keep their weapon concealed.

Crucis said...

I guess Missouri is so new to CCW, that few places are posted. In fact, I can't remember any being posted except---at the gun shows. The shows have "No loaded weapons" posted prominently on the doors with of-duty cops to enforce the rule (among other things.)

I suppose it is due to insurance requirements but it always struck me a stupid. All those guns. All that ammo. But, you can't carry your personal gear with those two united.

Kristopher said...

Sportsman"s Warehouse, before they went banco, had a simple policy statement on the door:

All firearms brought in for work must be unloaded, and are to be inspected at the front of the store. This policy does not apply to self-defense firearms that remain holstered.

tomcatshanger said...

Maybe it's a Texas thing, or a Houston thing, but any time I see a sign saying "no loaded guns" at a gun store, it has a "except for CHL holders" clause.

They don't want folks walking in with a malfunctioning loaded firearm, or to walk in with a loaded rifle they are there to buy a gizmo for, but they don't ask folks licensed to carry to unload.

Seems right neighborly.

Tam said...

No, I've seen plenty of those signs, too.

Roberta X said...

The way I figure, at a place with any form of a "no guns" sign but without some way of checking, a gun I keep concealed isn't actually a gun. And if Bad Things happen, I plan to look out for #1; they're on their own, just like their sign says they wanna be.

Srsly, if they wanted you not to carry, or to carry only unloaded? They'd be patting you down or using a metal detector. Lacking that, they're just wishing. Dream on, fools, the baddies will ignore your fool sign and so will I. Why should I dink around with my own personal sidearm just so they can somehow (telepathically?) perceive they can now relax in a nice pool of warm bliss?

Concealed is *concealed.* This ain't a Girl Scout campout.

Andy said...

I don't know (haven't looked) if Georgia code specifically has any bearing to the carrying of loaded, holstered weapons in a gun store. All of the ones that I've been to in the ATL area do have such policies. However, one point to ponder did come to mind: Some business insurance policies for such establishments may not allow loaded firearms to be carried in the store by non-employees. Logic be damned.

I've never bothered to ask any of the places. Maybe I should.

dave said...

And I'll say it again:

I've heard "insurance requirements" trotted out more times than I can count, and I've challenged many people to prove it. To date, I've not had a single person able to show me anything in any insurance policy that says "you have to forbid lawfully-carried firearms." Not once.

Andy, if you can provide the citation, I'd love to see it. My e-mail address is at barefootclown.net, and the local-part is the same as my username here.

I'd love to see some proof on that one. Please be the first.

Wayne said...

When I started going to Beech Grove Firearms, I always unloaded just as the sign asked. After I had been there several times on a weekly basis, I was told that the sign applied to people coming in to have their weapons serviced or sold and that I would not have to unload before coming in anymore.

As to Goose Mtn(south)I have had no problem open carrying in the store. The only dirty looks I get are from the soccer moms that are looking for pink camo clothing or some hiking stuff.

J.R.Shirley said...

"it's all that touching that can result in an n.d." And that's what I told her: it wasn't my fault! :-D


Andy, GA law forbids carrying on publicly owned property, or at sporting events, or political rallies. Never seen anything about "where prohibited by owner".

the pawnbroker said...

j.r.shirley: "And that's what I told her: it wasn't my fault! :-D"

different kind of discharge there, j.r...p.d.? :o)

shootin' buddy: "Or AD."

i dunno, s.b., lots of folks say there ain't no such thing; no a's, just n's...i don't want to believe that because i've had three, two definitely n's, but one that i sure want to call an a.

later in your comment i think you hit on the answer: "...discharges that you do not intend..."

"u.d." yeah, that's the ticket. throw in j.r.'s p.d.'s and there's gotta be a post or three in there somewhere.

jtc

Tam said...

No, I've seen an actual AD: Where a mechanical malfunction of the firearm caused it to discharge with no negligence involved whatsoever.

Kristopher said...

RobertaX: Concealed doesn't cover all cases.

Holstered open carry is still acceptable in some western states.

the pawnbroker said...

"No, I've seen an actual AD:"

no doubt. but even there sticklers will point to this and call it an "n":

"The most likely cause was debris in the striker assembly."

of my own three:

http://poetnthepawnbroker.blogspot.com/2008/04/negligent-dischargesaccidental-sounds.html

that last one i submit to be an "a", and the big ol' hunk of missing concrete floor in my old store (instead of a missing hunk of the deputy sitting across the counter from me), is testament to the wisdom of the 4r's.

still, "u.d." covers them all, and no matter what you call them or whether the malfunctioning mechanics are cold and blue or warm and pink, or a combination of the two...the point of your post, "don't touch too much!" is the key to less of them.

jtc

Tam said...

If you read through the thread to page two, you'll see that the actual cause was a broken firing pin safety spring.

He was really freaking out at the moment because he thought his finger must have somehow hit the trigger and then re-indexed itself along the frame.

But, no, it was a broken gun from the You Suck And We Hate You company. (And they never sent a replacement spring. My gunsmith had to make him one.)

the pawnbroker said...

wow. i didn't read all the way through, and i should have known it was a solid a.d. example or you wouldn't have thrown it up there.

makes me feel better about calling my 645's failure to eject a strictly hardware problem as well (but the deputy in question still crosses the street when he sees me coming).

still like the u.d. label, though. hardware of software, a malf's a malf and playing the blame game doesn't alleviate the potential for catastrophic results..."unintentional homicide"?.

jtc

Andy said...

I'm not saying some nebulous 'insurance rule' is at work here. I believe I pointed out that I had no research to support such a conclusion, just some logical guesswork. I'm familiar enough with the Georgia Code and carry restrictions that I know there is no specific LAW against it.

Since I'll hit the range tomorrow, I'll ask.

Andy said...

A little discussion after some range time at Nick's. Nick's does not have any such policy as described above. Specifically quoted, "I expect my customers to behave like adults, not idiots".

So, my guesswork has no basis. I've been wrong before.