Saturday, August 13, 2011

Big Boy Rules.

Meet the men and women of American Defense Enterprises:



(EDIT: Tired of being mocked by everybody on the internets with more functioning neurons than a banana slug, A.D.E. apparently pulled their YouTube video lest it cut into their lucrative market of bilking Angelenos of their hard-earned currency. Luckily, the internets are forever!)

If you read their promotional material, you'll find that the Department of Homeland Security rated them the number one trainers in the world*! And have you seen their "American Warrior Test"? It's the ultimate test of skills. Forget a sub-5 second FAST or a 280+ on the Hackathorn Standards, it takes seven hours just to take the American Warrior Test, which is apparently almost as expensive grueling as earning a Four Weapons Combat Master ticket!

The firearms training industry has grown from a handful of guys in the desert thirty years ago into a behemoth, surfing the wave of the ongoing Global War On a Noun and the popularity of shows like 24, Top Shot and The Best Defense and movies like... well... every summer movie out there. Every idiot with access to a berm and a shirt with epaulets is hanging out their Flat Dark Earth shingle these days, it seems.

It is only a matter of time until some chiropodist at a weekend SWAT fantasy camp gets his kidneys blown out his navel by the Bushhamster of the stranger behind him in the stack preparing to practice breaching and clearing, and somebody like 20/20 or 60 Minutes is going to have a frickin' field day with it. (Quick: Name five big-name trainers you'd leave alone in a room for five minutes with Chris Cuomo and a cameraman, knowing that a hostile hand would be driving the editing controls...)

The complete lack of a self-regulating accrediting body is going to bite the training industry in the ass sooner or later, and the irony is that even having one wouldn't do much good, since there is always a certain subset of trainers who would market themselves as outlaws, teaching SPECOPS SEAL Contractor Dynamic 360° Combat tactics too extreme!! for the other guys, who are a bunch of nancy milquetoasts.


BONUS!: PDB gives an excellent point-by-point breakdown of the suckage, as well as general tips on how to identify and avoid being taken in by the hucksterism and flash of a Mall Ninjas 'Я' Us sales pitch.
___________________________________
*Which claim came as a surprise to the DHS, who issues no such rankings. Incidentally, I know I have some SOCOM types in the readership. Anybody able to vet ADE owner Bill Beasley's claims of being ex-SF?

132 comments:

og said...

Even the best schools can only show you what to do and what not to do, making the skills second nature relies on piles of spent brass, tubes of bengay, and bandaids.

jetaz said...

Since you mention it, a self-regulating accrediting body is a very good idea. Particularly one that provide ratings based both on the risk of the training, and the ability of the trainers.

Even leaving aside the possible decrease in insurance costs to the trainer, by being accredited by such a body, as a student, finding good, inexpensive training near me would be significantly easier.

Carteach0 said...

I observe the head check maneuver in so many 'trained' shooters. Self trained or paid training... I watch them finish shooting and then swivel their heads around lest some trainer whack them with a stick for not being attentive.

I have to wonder... how many of them actually LOOK around them?

I've done the same, but had a buddy hide numbered cards on the side berms. Part of the shoot drill is to ID the numbers correctly.

On occasion, he would shout "Threat, 2!" and it would mean a few more rounds into the identified target.

I don't think there's anyone who teaches situational awareness enough. It should be an entire course of it's own, without a round fired.

Anonymous said...

I know I have some SOCOM types in the readership. Anybody able to vet ADE owner Bill Beasley's claims of being ex-SF?

Head on over to socnet.com. You'll have to register and post an intro, but then you'll be able to ask the experts.

Tam said...

Carteach0,

Yeah, there's a big difference between "looking around to make sure it's cool to reholster" and "pivoting my head like a robot because my instructor told me to".

Then again, it looks cool. And what's Rule #1?

"Always Look Cool."

Tango Juliet said...

Right on Carteach! I try hard to see what I'm looking at, but I still miss details. I'm sure it can be improved by some sort of exercise but right now, what's the best path.

I work hard on taking in the whole picture, but miss details. Something about seeing what I want to see. :(

Carteach0 said...

On that whole awareness thing... it doesn't take a live range to work on it. Two people, a blue gun and holster, and an otherwise empty house are enough.

One person sets a few 'SEE ME' points in the house (Bad guy / good guy targets are kewl for this), and the other person comes in later to clear the house.

It can be as easy or complicated as one wishes, costs nothing, and uses up no ammo.

Tango Juliet said...

Thanks for the input Carteach0.

My biggest concern is actually seeing and accepting that there is indeed a threat and reacting accordingly.

Mental inertia? Complacency?

docjim505 said...

I enjoy shooting, wish I could afford to do it more, and would like to be better at it than I am. But...

BREACHING AND CLEARING??? WTF?

My view is that, unless there's something REALLY important like my dog or maybe my wife in the house with the bad guy(s); I'd be VERY happy to be outside calling 911 while he's inside. Less likely to get shot, stabbed, clubbed, etc. that way.

I also wonder what a hoplophobic DA would think if he found that a somebody involved in a shooting had been to one of these "tactical" training schools?

"Hmmm... Homeowner... with a closet full of military-style gear... who has all these fancy laser-printer certificates from Bob's Mad-Tac SEAL Skillz Academy... shoots about thirty rounds from an assault weapon and kills somebody who he claims broke into his house. Time to get my hair cut and my suit pressed, 'cuz '60 Minutes', here I come!"

Bubblehead Les. said...

Time to open "Tam's School of Common Sense Shooting Skills", dontcha think?

And I'm not joking.

Tam said...

Bubblehead Les,

1) I am not qualified. There are already enough unqualified people out there trying to cash in.

2) There are already an assload of good schools and instructors out there.

James family outpost, Iowa. said...

Do they really have a person run across the hot firing line while some dummy has a loaded weapon pointed downrange? And firing over the head of prone shooters? They call this a training class? I don't think they could pay me a million bucks to participate in that BS. Oh wait, its a paintball course and everyone forgot and brought their real guns instead.

Captain Tightpants said...

Unfortunately most of my verification sources are Navy, not Army - but I can pretty much call b.s. just on the way they're doing things. As you and the others are well aware, none of the techniques they are showing in the fundamentals (not even counting the muzzle discipline etc) is even close to accepted standards. Reloads done looking down at the ground, point shooting, etc. - even old-timers aren't doing that anymore, much less current "operators".

As to any East or West coast Team guys using the facility - not that I've heard of.

Think it's the same thing as the whole watch debacle - one Frog or Beret guy asks about it at a gunshow seeing the booth, then walks away, and suddenly it becomes "official SOCOM issue."

Tango Juliet said...

I suspect Tam's School of Common Sense Shooting Skills would not be glamorous.

Fundamentals. No repelling from flaming helicopters. Emphasis on skills and mindset, not toys.

It would be hard work.

It would be tough.

It would be good.

Sport Pilot said...

I concur with Tam, there are good and bad school's and instructors aplenty out there waiting for you to pay your money.

Tam said...

Captain Tightpants,

"As you and the others are well aware, none of the techniques they are showing in the fundamentals (not even counting the muzzle discipline etc) is even close to accepted standards."

Bobbi can tell you that I was yelling "Choke up on the gun! Choke up on the $%^& gun! It's not going to bite you!" at the video... until my cakehole shut with an audible snap around the 1:00 mark when the stupid started. :D

Chris Rhines said...

Ugh.

Leaving aside the obvious safety issues, the shooting fundamentals on display were HORRIBLE. Low reloads, spanking the magazine, I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of teacup grips... Pitiful.

That said, a legal regulatory agency for firearms trainers is not, not, not the answer.

Such an agency would have to have to be federal in scope, because many if not most trainers operate in multiple states. The agency would have to have the power to award and rescind certifications, with fines and legal penalties for trainers who operate without their blessing. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to see how this would end up stifling innovation and restricting civilian access in the training industry.

I don't know what the solution is, except to keep calling out idiots as idiots.

Perhaps a training-related variant of failblog?

Anonymous said...

That anyone would use that video as a marketing device is self-destructive. One of the first shooters (Glock) stares at the gun when the slide is locked back and then slap seats the mag. Fail. They almost raise Tactical Response to the point of incompetent bozos by providing an even lower standard.

Al T.

Shrimp said...

"There are already an assload of good schools and instructors out there."

"I concur with Tam, there are good and bad school's and instructors aplenty out there waiting for you to pay your money."


The problem is, how does the average person (well-meaning and truly wanting to learn, never having attended a training course) avoid places like this joke of an outfit, and find the good (or even mediocre) ones?

I'm of the opinion that learning the wrong way is perhaps just as bad as not bothering to learn at all, and in fact may be more dangerous in both the short and long run. Not everyone is going to learn the wrong way, realize it is the wrong way, and correct it.

A list of places you recommend (and why) might not be a bad idea. A list of the jokers might not be bad either. Or a list of places that provide such lists.

If you don't mind giving an opinion on the good, the bad, and the ugly, and why. Your regular readers will likely know the why, but the neophytes could be directed to that link when asked what to look for in a good school, and what to avoid in a bad school, and how to know when you've wasted your money.

Matt G said...

Uh, that would be at the 1:07 mark, to be precise. :o


Putting a stack into a room efficiently is hard. I've practiced it, and I've done it okay sometimes, but sometimes I've just flat-out sucked. It takes a lot of practice. Fortunately, it's a really specialized skill. Just being familiarized isn't good enough. You have to practice, with a team. I can diagram a perfect waltz or tango for you on paper, but I can't dance worth crap. If those are LEO teams, okay, I really didn't get to see much what they did in their entries. If they're not, then they're just playing.

I did a little topcover/overview with rifle recently, and my whole goal was to make sure that I had a decent view of the actor, while keeping my friendlies out of the sight lane. This completely consumed where I set up, which turned out to be crouching to look under trees and over tall grass and a low fence between me and the actor. At NO POINT did I ever get to look cool.

That said, I later got the nice compliment by having the near-contact officer (shotgun) tell me that he really, really liked having me out there. Sometimes the tactics are a lot less dynamic.

And I really like your idea of accredation for training.

Tam said...

Chris Rhines,

"That said, a legal regulatory agency..."

I very very specifically did NOT say "legal regulatory agency".

In fact, considering how long you've known me on the intertubes, I'm appalled that you'd even think that I implied such a thing.

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the ABMS.

Oleg Volk said...

I suspect that I will be doing my future exercises with dummy rifles and lasers just to learn how to not cover freindlies by accident...

Cormac said...

at 1:30 I went from thinking "meh...I kinda like how the targets show the organs" to "WHAT THE CRAP IS THAT DUMB BITCH DOING?!?!?!?!??? PEOPLE ARE STILL SHOOTING AT THE SAME TARGETS! FROM BEHIND HER!!" to "they're not stopping this? is this part of the course?" my mind went a bit blank after that...inability to comprehend the velocity at which the stupid came hurtling in my direction.

Cond0010 said...

"Always Look Cool."

Well... that disqualifies me right there. :)

Kristopher said...

Oleg: Sometimes that Airsoft stuff is actually useful.


Tam:

Know anyone who may be interested in starting such an accreditation service? Got a mirror? When you complain about a problem, you should be ready to pitch in.

Get together with some clued folks and hang out a shingle yourself. Make some money and help the real pros clean up this mess.

Ian said...

Perhaps Tam, Bobbi, or Oleg (or all of your powers combined!) could do a post in the near-future with your recommended schools?

I've only had enough trainning to get my carry permit, hunting license, and not totally embarass myself at trap. I'd like to become much better.

Not John Woo, not John Rambo... but better than the average John Q. Public.

Steve said...

As soon as the first legitimate accrediting body is founded, all of the guys who don't make the cut will just start their own accrediting bodies (Accredited by the all American league of American trainers of America!)...I may just have to register that as a trade name. Many trainers will just accredit themselves.
Mockery may be the best antidote to these clowns.

Robert said...

How much would such an accreditation agency have to charge for the service, to offset the substantial amount they would have to pay for liability insurance?

James said...

TAM, Thank you for sharing the video for ADE training - interesting is such an overused word..so while I think of something more fitting...
Oh, and of course I did learn what I have been doing wrong - I'm not wear HAIX shoes or as you kindly pointed out the need for attending a course like this one - the HAIX kidney protection soft plate carrier! Just wondering their track record for accidental discharge, KIA, DOA?...

Always enjoy your blog and observations on this wild and crazy world and times that we are a part of.
James in Dallas

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I've served in the military and LE for over 25 years. Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Kyle Lamb/VTAC, Paul Howe/CSAT, Larry Vickers/Vickers Tactical, Scotty Reitz/ITTS, Pat Rogers/EAG, Jeff Gonzales/Trident Concepts, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, Magpul Dynamics, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, Kyle Defoor/Defoor Proformance Shooting, Jason Falla/Redback One, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, LMS Defense, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught.

DocGKR

Tam said...

For those asking for a list, look at the ones mentioned in the comment above this one.

Deals don't come much realer than DocGKR.

Drang said...

Industrial accreditation arises from a perceived need of an industry--usually, the industry perceives some sort of competitive threat, either upstarts or governmental, and organizes to circumvent that threat. If the agency is successful, it lends it's members a cachet of authority and legitimacy which may be exaggerated--note that the only maybe a third of doctors are members of the AMA, for example.

Establishing standards and codes may be beneficial, but there is also the threat that the standard will be whatever the Big Dogs say it is, and the smaller guys get squeezed out of business. (I agree that, in this case, the "Outlaw Operators" will have a certain cachet that will actually work in their favor.)

ASIS International (formerly the American Society for Industrial Security) is an obvious choice to "organize" Gun Schools; I'd avoid attending a school they certify, though, as they are pretty much in the pockets of corporate security and tend to hold their collective nose when it comes to that icky Second Amendment...

global village idiot said...

It's the Solid Gold Dancers' Tactical Christmas Special!

Seriously, who runs this course, Paula Abdul? I swear I saw leg-warmers on one of the danc- umm..."operators."

What was that synchronized-swimming thing with the two partners shooting, then pirouetting and each clearing HIS BUDDY'S LANE, then...oh, I dunno, they lost me after that.

And who leads?

By the time the gal masked her buddy TWICE ON A HOT RANGE, I'd stopped being astonished by this "school's" antics.

Since they all have the same industrial-gothic music, I turned the sound down; but I think it'd be cool to re-watch this video with, like, Morris Day and The Time's "Jungle Love" or something.

gvi

Justthisguy said...

I always thought it was silly to teach offensive things like house-clearing to private citizens. It seems a householder would be on the "enemy" side of that kind of drill.

Training for defense when surprised would be better for most people, methinks. I wonder how you'd train for being woken from a sound sleep in the middle of the night by somebody crashing through the bedroom window, for example.

global village idiot said...

JTG, that's pretty easy. If not the precise evolution, at least you can train for something requiring similar presence-of-mind.

Clear and safe your house gun. Then check it. Then set your alarm clock for some random hour of the evening. Check that your house gun is clear and safe again and hunker down for the night.

When the alarm goes off, get up, present your house gun, then pick up your cordless or cell phone and while you account for all the "non-combatants" in your house, dial an automated phone number like your utility company, going through the menus to check your balance.

The presence-of-mind you'd need to do this, in the dark, while accounting for your loved ones, is similar to that of calling the authorities under extreme duress.

What's more, you do it in your own home. Beats trying to clear a strange ruin of a shoot-house.

Not perfect by any means, but certainly a cheap training alternative.

gvi

Tam said...

gvi,

"Clear and safe your house gun. Then check it. Then set your alarm clock for some random hour of the evening. Check that your house gun is clear and safe again..."

Or, you know, use your Blue Gun or training airsoft. ;)

Will said...

@Jetaz

if you think a regulatory body is going to make training cheaper, I've got a bridge for sale, cheap!

One of the first things to go will be innovation. Changing any part of the curriculum will become such a hassle that no one will attempt it. Eventually, all schools would end up being identical, except for size and location.
Learning how to clear a building/home? Kiss it goodbye. Ditto shooting houses.
Basically, it will devolve into a copy of an NRA new shooter class.
Even if the .gov doesn't get involved (fat chance), the same mindset that infests all levels of govt bureaucracy will be attracted to it. The fight will be on to CONTROL it. I'm sure the .gov would love to see these civilian schools disappear. Second best is to have total control of them.

What will end up happening is this will drive out the very people that strive to create the best product (students) they can. You have no idea how frustrating it is when you develop a better way to build the product, but the regulatory process needed to change it causes the company to decide not to bother. Especially if you were part of the original development team, and wrote the process documents that were used to meet the accreditation requirements!

Yes, there could be some good results from "a self-regulating accrediting body", but they will be lost in the sea of bureaucracy that will be the end result. The bureaucratic mindset is too widespread these days, and I see no way around its quick and guaranteed takeover of such a body, whether internally or by .gov meddling.

Michael said...

I stumbled across the "Asshats On Parade" video yesterday. We all know someone is going to pay to get killed by someone else who paid to do the deed.

But hey, one of their "Range Officers" is a hot brunette with huge sweater puppies. Bubbas and Cleti will flock to them.

Tango Juliet said...

I'll continue to trust in word-of-mouth advertising from trusted sources.

IMHO the list should include:

Gunsite
Shootrite
Thunder Ranch

Tam said...

Will,

I take it you avoid "Board-Certified Surgeons" like the plague, right?

SPD said...

I don't know. I thought it was entertaining. I really like the part when they finished the tactical square dance thing and the one dude holsters and pulls the ninja throwing star/knives. Why you think there are no videos of actual students running these "drills"?

ExurbanKevin said...

"Shoot like a professional."

Professional what?

Shrimp said...

A professional who shoots, of course.

ExurbanKevin said...

Well, Rob Leatham, Matt Burkett and Vic Pickett all shoot at my home range, and ain't NONE of them shoots like that...

Anonymous said...

IALEFI and ILETA both have a pretty outstanding list of firearms instructors.

If you make a master instuctor with them your squared away.

Gerry

Anonymous said...

Any shooting instructor with their own headbanger music soundtrack is off my list.

Sorry just the way it is at my age.

Gerry

tanksoldier said...

@docjim505:
If everything in your scenario was the same, EXCEPT that the DA's victim did NOT attend such a school, do you really think it would be any different?

The only way to ensure you're NOT a victim of a rabid DA is to destroy all your guns, knives and baseball bats and ensure that any criminal you meet kills you without hurting themselves.

As for learning to stack or any other "high speed" tactics, there's no harm in the average person learning them... the problem is who to learn from. Would a certifying agency become the AMA fifty years down the road?

Mike McDaniel said...

Oh Dear. Black jammies? Sunglasses? Consistent purposeful scowls? Annoying music? People crossing each other with their muzzles, shooting past others who are downrange of them? Oh dear.

Under no circumstance would I ever take part in a "class" practicing "breaching" and "clearing" with people I had not already extensively trained with. As you suggested Tam, that--to say nothing of much of what is visible on the tape--is a guaranteed recipe for multiple gunshot wounds in trainees. Choreography is lovely in movies and in the dojo, but reality tends to enforce different and safer standards of behavior. I wonder if the insurance carrier for these folks has any idea what they're doing? Actually, I wonder if they have an insurance carrier.

But there is no question about two things: (1) I am attracted to attractive women in tactical clothing with guns, (2) The people in the tape look the part--as long as you don't know much about shooting or tactics.

As always, Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware).

PS: Why would the seal of approval of any governmental agency be reassuring? Ronald Reagan was right when he said that the most horrifying words in the English language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Candidus said...

The ghost of George Silver facepalms.

Tam said...

Mike McDaniel,

"Why would the seal of approval of any governmental agency..."

I refer you to my comment above.

I very very specifically did NOT say anything about a "governmental agency".

It is beginning to distress me mightily that a bunch of nominally libertarian/conservative types cannot frickin' seem to imagine a voluntary trade accrediting board that lacks a government seal of approval.

Tam said...

ABMS, IEEE, UL, ISO...

Anonymous said...

I watched the video like you asked me. Now I am sad.

This stuff would make Jeff Cooper cry. By watching this video I have re-injured Clint Smith's neck. In viewing this I have driven Louis Awerbuck into even fewer words.

Shootin' Buddy

Anonymous said...

Now I have watched the videos on their website and am even sadder.

"We do dangerous things"???

Did they run this by the attorney?

A client who is being stalked will "blow away" the alleged stalker? You put THAT on the website.

I HOPE this is just horrific self-promotion.

Shootin' Buddy

Cybrludite said...

GVI,

I say speed it up a little, and use Yakkity Sax for the soundtrack...

kishnevi said...

Wouldn't a high DHS ranking (if such a thing existed) be a big red flag? Would you want to be associated with any institution that claimed such a thing, even if it was true?

Tam at 5:47--perhaps the confusion results from the fact that most accrediting agencies seem to get enmeshed with the government regulatory agencies or politics at some point, so just having one is an open invitation to governmentizing, or at least bureaucratizing things (see Will's comment for fuller statement of the latter point)

ljr said...

still wish you well my friend

don't mean to take any liberties

by calling you my friend

i just wish well

as i can

og said...

On the upside, the girl on this end of the conga line of the damned has a pretty nice dumper, though the shape is sorta ruined by the goofy accoutrements.

Anonymous said...

Why is everybody hatin' on these folks? All I saw was babes in black with guns. Where do I sign up?

jf

Tasso said...

If only someone would invent some sort of "no shoot" target! Then we wouldn't have to have 5 people muzzling each other on a hot range.

ADE Official Tombstone: "He died for want of white cardboard."

Tim Ellwood said...

I used to vendor at the SOF conventions back in the olden days, every year you would see new "schools" set up a booth to train you to, I don't really know, repel a Russian invasion?
These "operator" schools just seem to be an extension on those idea's.
The words Walter Mitty come to mind.
I guess it shows we
still have a decent economy if these dillweeds can fill a class with people who have money and the free time to waste.

Mike McDaniel said...

Dear Tam:

My comment regarding being unimpressed with governmental certification referred specifically to the assertion that these black-clad range ninjas are the number one trainers as certified by the DHS. I am indeed open to rational, voluntary certifications by those outside of government who know whereof they speak.

Justthisguy said...

Tahksoldier, I disagree. A private citizen has no need to learn "breaching" and "stacking", just how to defend against them, even if all he can do is give a good account of himself while dying. I mean, try for the un-armored parts. Maybe you can get lucky with a femoral artery hit.

Tam said...

Justthisguy,

No, but a private citizen may want to learn some form of team tactics.

For instance, my roommate and I might be coming out of a movie theater into a parking garage where somebody's decided to go all Sulejman Talovic. I'd like to get to the car without either of us setting the other one on fire. It would be nice to have some practice moving around each other with loaded guns in our hands, which is hard to get at the local indoor range.

Further, fuck a bunch of what a "private citizen" has any "need to learn". If we worried about that stuff, we'd still be drinkling tea with biscuits for midday snack. I have "need to learn" any goddam thing I want to learn, whether it's making a perfect tomato soup or building a thermonuclear warhead.

Tim Ellwood said...

I might have found the birth video of some of these training classes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSzDZhzxsP4&feature=youtu.be

Justthisguy said...

P.s. Yes, I am writing about home invaders with badges (which they won't show you until after they shoot you). You know, the guys who say, "candygram" er "police" in a stage whisper, before they break the door down and come in shooting?

Justthisguy said...

Sorry, Tam, I'm in my seventh decade now, and have to pick and choose between what I need to learn and what it would be nice to learn in the time I have left. As to the other issue, I don't play well with others; never have. We all die alone anyway, except that I hope Hovercat will comfort me and bring me home to Ceiling Cat.

Anonymous said...

About 30 years ago I was in LA CA for a few weeks. With nothing to do one weekend I took a shooting class taught by a guy named Ken Turnipseed. This was just his basic pistol class.
He used a little range in the middle of downtown LA. No bells or whistles; just one instructor, a couple of assistants, and about 20 students. I still use the grip/stance technique that he taught.
The point here is that the guy knew his stuff and how to pass it along to his students.
And IIRC the cost was about $50.00 for the day.

gvi said...

I very very specifically did NOT say anything about a "governmental agency".

I think he was referring to this:

If you read their promotional material, you'll find that the Department of Homeland Security rated them the number one trainers in the world*...*Which claim came as a surprise to the DHS, who issues no such rankings...."

I think he was wondering aloud as to why a testimonial - faked or not - from DHS would make anyone want to take their classes.

gvi

Justthisguy said...

Oh, Og knows about Ceiling Cat, and Happycat, and Hovercat, the three of them in one, having spent years studying their ways. He also knows to beware of Basement Cat, who was cast down from the Ceiling, right through the Floor, into the nasty smelly Basement.

John B said...

my catty side wants to say special Ed. maybe, Special Forces. I strongly doubt it. I'd cheerfully follow those into battle any day. Follow that is, I'd never place my fat ass in front of those kiddies in a million years, for ten million bucks.

Justthisguy said...

As I believe I mentioned above, I have recently entered my seventh decade on this here mudball, and really have not the slightest desire to go out into the world, looking for asses to kick.

However: The older I get, the grumpier I seem to get about rude strangers who look like they might want to kick _my_ ass.

This is why I keep a revolver.

WV: shoup. Honest! Marine!!!

Anonymous said...

"As for learning to stack or any other "high speed" tactics, there's no harm in the average person learning them..."

I have to agree with this too. It's good to be at least familiar with these things. Besides, you might have cause to dissect and take apart one of those formations from the other side one day... and probably right in the middle of your making that world class tomatoe soup...

KR said...

Many years ago Tom Givens of Rangemaster started an organization called the Polite Society. Each year, dozens of private sector trainers (primarily those focused on civilian, not SWAT/SEAL/etc, training) and their students meet at the annual conference, where we compete, train, and share ideas.

If you are looking for a list of private sector/civilian oriented schools (and data on which schools' instructors can actually shoot), looking at data from past Polite Society conferences is a good start. A lot of those trainers can also be found writing for and participating in USCCA (Concealed Carry magazine) and the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

Tam said...

Anybody writing for Concealed Carry Magazine is obviously a genius. And witty, too. Also, modest.

James said...

Tam, this entire discussion about selecting a training source that actually understands the big picture - and not just 'tacty-coolness', would be a very important article for some genius, witty, and even modest writer to prepare for Concealed Carry magazine. We citizen's that go around with with a gun everyday need all of the help we can get in sorting out the real deals from those who have the largest marketing budget, Hollywood. Probably should be written by someone that can point out a few key basic lessons that can be learned from such videos as the ADE marketing pieces! And remember "what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger"... it may even be printed on their suitable-for-framing class diplomas!

KR said...

The main criteria that students should use to find a trainer should be 1) documented competence in their area of expertise (match results, instructor certifications, training from reputable schools, military/LEO service) 2) ability & experience teaching (best demonstrated through accomplishments of their students)

If you made a list based on those criteria and crossed with it with the list of trainers who excel at self-promotion via online postings, TV and print, you'd find some names on both lists, but some would be absent from one list or the other.

TXGunGeek said...

Has anyone gotten past the hilarity of the video and gone to their website? Maybe drilled down trough their bookface page. One of the "instructors" is a Graphic Design graduate, model, songwriter, recording company owner. Nothing wrong with those careers but nothing in there screams tacticool operator to me. Granted, I have no tacticool operator professional experience in my history but That is not what I teach.

Tam said...

KR,

"If you made a list based on those criteria and crossed with it with the list of trainers who excel at self-promotion via online postings, TV and print, you'd find some names on both lists, but some would be absent from one list or the other."

In light of your statement that attendance at Polite Society was a seal of approval, I find this interesting. Givens is indeed a quality trainer, as are some of the other attendees, however it has also hosted people who have beclowned the training industry every bit as much as the asshats and jokers in the video above. And that's all I have to say about that.

AJ said...

The pirouette routine was lovely. I wonder if they teach you how to shoot two pistols sideways while jumping. The "Angelina Jolie" (Drill?) as my wife calls it. THAT would be fantastic.

ExurbanKevin said...

Now we know where Christian Bale got his training for "Equilibrium"

Anonymous said...

"one of their "Range Officers" is a hot brunette with huge sweater puppies"

Perhaps I need to examine this video closer...

wv - rimph..... uh, OK then.

Tam said...

The dual-wielding karambits? That was totally the best part.

After you shoot some dude, if you think another dude is standing behind you, what you do is put your pistol away, spin around, and pull out a couple little knives.

Anonymous said...

Tam,

As a medical professional, yep, one of those guys with voluntary boards that certify you, I can say that there is NO WAY ON EARTH a voluntary certification board for gunnies would work.

They might work about as well as Bar Associations work for attorneys. Check that out nationwide and see what you find!

I initially thought, "Yeah, that's a great idea!" then I thought some more, and it just doesn't. No one I've ever met came to me because of my certifications or board status, they came because they heard of me from another patient, or occasionally because they found me in the book. No one has ever said, "I was impressed that you were board certified!"

And I agree, when you start to develop some type of credentialing process you end up with a mess! Talk to someone who works at a hospital based practice who has to deal with JCAHO.

Won't work. Meanwhile, some poor guy or girl is going to pay a horrible price for these idiots!

KR said...

re: Polite Society. I've presented, attended, and competed at all but one of the PS conferences. There's no other event that gets as many private sector trainers and their students together in one place for adult conversation and peer review. It's done FAR more good than harm for the national training community. And that's I have to say about that.

Anonymous said...

One of the first steps is to ensure that all instructors are certified by the NRA, and that teaching, and shooting, practices comply with NRA standards.

Anonymous said...

"I'd hit that."

Borepatch said...

I know that I'm way late to the party here, but really wanted to think on this before I replied.

Internet Security has in essence the same problems as firearms instruction:

1. There are a lot of folks in the field

2. There are a lot of different ideas how things should be done

3. It's way easy to go wrong in ways both subtle and not so subtle

4. It's very, very hard for potential customers to differentiate the wheat from the chaff, because some of the spectacularly bad stuff may look very sexy to outsiders

5. Pretty much everything that the Fed.Gov has done in the last 20 years has resulted in a sucking chest wound of FAIL

I think that the only thing that works is high profile mockery. Bruce Schneier is famous for using the term "snake oil" for particular egregious security FAILS (example: "Our proprietary encryption scheme is secret, so nobody knows how to reverse engineer it!"). Over time, this mockery has caught on and driven some - not much, but some - silliness away.

I think that's the best we can expect here. I'm pretty much a n00b when it comes to this sort of firearms training, although my jaw did drop when live targets were downrange from shooters, and when shooters crossed each other's lines of fire. But as with many security customers and encryption, many of the finer points went past me.

What did NOT go past was Tam saying things like ZOMG LOL whut?

Snake oil. Got it.

Thanks, Tam!

P.S. I think that knowing how to properly form into a stack to properly breach assault my house is about #12,592 on my list of Things To Do. Probably that represents a moral failure of some sort. Next thing you know, I'll be voting for HopenChange, or something ....

Anonymous said...

I see dead people. Lots of dead people.

The first rule of gun fighting is not to get shot. Standing in place while returning fire in reaction to an attack just makes you the bullet stop.

Dave Griffith said...

In martial arts circles, this sort of thing is known as "bullshido". Google for it, and you'll find websites dedicated toward helping people avoid idiotic "extreme" trainers who will take their money and teach them moves that will get them killed. I hadn't realized that such were necessary in firearms training (Dropping and having some other student fire over me!!! Give me my money back now or face a lawsuit!!!!), but there's a niche.

Robert Langham said...

It's not cool unless its dangerous and the coolest thing is having people get hurt. Let the Arizona bunch who killed the Marine teach and accredit every.....single.....one of them. Hey, they killed him didn't they? and did any of them get hurt while they were making their bones? Nope.

The BATFE should be refs and umpires to make sure standards are kept as low as possible.

Anonymous said...

who should i be more afraid of?
the criminals, or the sheepdips that graduate from courses like these...?
scary...
i think I'll just stay with Don Mann's book "the modern day gunslinger" for now...

Anonymous said...

Could these must be the guys who trained the Tucson SWAT team that murdered that two tour combat vet in the hallway of his own home? The vet kept his friend or foe discipline; his safety was still on. The glory boys playing dress up soldier pumped about 70 rounds into him after the first one in fell down in the doorway. Hell of way to teach a decorated combat soldier that the local LE never sends friends. But they put on quite a show for his wife and infant daughter. The child's hearing damage may never recover. Another case of promiscuous use of force breeds recklessness and wreaks tragedy upon innocents.

That's what stuck me about Las Vegas choreography of these clowns from AD -- teaching promiscuous use of deadly force. Navy Seals in their worst moments during Panama weren't this reckless.

No way this clown is SF. No friggin way. Being they are a business making claims soliciting consumers, perhaps a consumer protection complaint is in order should indeed those claims be false or otherwise misleading. It strikes me as unusual that any government agency would officially endorse any vendor for any particular purpose.

As for the sound track, where where the rockin' cameos of Vinny in black strikin poses and dancing along to Stayin' Alive.

The industry needs to create its own certification structure and competency metrics. Do this in partnership with the insurance industry. They will be looking for leadership in how to reduce their risk.

Consumer protection enforcement and insurability guidelines are the way to put the asshat factories out of business.

I shudder to think that these are the people teaching tactics to modern LEOs and DHS. Scary thought.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I am not even a frequent firearms user, and I thought those guys were absurd and dangerous.

It looks like a couple of friends who washed out of their security guard gig getting together and choreographing a "shooting video" for this idea one guy had to start a shooting school. "Man, it would be cool. We'll get rich dudes to pay us like...a grand a day. My cousin has a surplus store where we can get our black SWAT suits."

Their next video will be a youtube tribute to their fallen friend who died in the line of fire. (Seriously, the dude just walked right into the line of fire, and Jimmy was all like "POP POP- NOOO!)

Tam said...

KR,

"There's no other event that gets as many private sector trainers and their students together in one place for adult conversation and peer review."

Did it have photogs downrange?

pdb said...

Did it have photogs downrange?

I see what you did there!

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
One of the first steps is to ensure that all instructors are certified by the NRA, and that teaching, and shooting, practices comply with NRA standards."



In spite of what you think the NRA are not the only ones who know how to shoot. Oh and I am an NRA certified instructor.

Somesmart guy way up the list here made a silly comment about Point shooting being unused. Well fella it is still in use and it works and its better at 5 yards than the normal stand and deliver MT nonsense they teach you at the bird or the Pizza parlor.

Stop asking which trainer you need to use and just get to a Suarez class. You wont look back.

Rusty Shackleford said...

To quote an well-renowned Instructor that some of you will recognize from this line:

"What I just saw is as wrong as two boys fucking!"

Caleb said...

Anon 9:41 said: Stop asking which trainer you need to use and just get to a Suarez class. You wont look back.

Or you could go to a reputable instructor that hasn't been convicted of fraud.

Tam said...

Anon 9:41,

"Stop asking which trainer you need to use and just get to a Suarez class. You wont[sic] look back."

Spit that Kool-Aid out, kid; it's bad for you.

Anonymous said...

Where in the video or on the website does he claim to be SF. I would like to have it checked out, but im not seeing the claim.

Mad Saint Jack said...

It's Gotta be the shoes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abr_LU822rQ

Tam said...

Anon 1:53,

It was alleged by supporters and detractors at a forum discussion elsewhere on the 'net.

Laughingdog said...

"I have to wonder... how many of them actually LOOK around them?"

In the one tactical pistol class I have taken, the instructor first taught everyone to do the head swivel to check for threats.

Not long after, he'd start standing behind us with a few fingers up and ask people how many fingers he had up. Then he'd have a staff member stand behind partial cover and then ask where he was after the string to see who was actually looking.

It shouldn't have seemed as noteworthy of a training lesson as it was.

Anonymous said...

If anyone can produce written or video data of him making a claim at being SF, or SEAL it can be an easy check. Or if you attended the a course and personally heard the claim. Guys are busted regularly for these things, and it really is a bad mark on the community when they are able to sell a product under a stolen valor claim. The tactics presented deffinatly do not conform to accepted standards within SOCOM. He may be legit and just wayward, which should make us sad in and of itself.

Anonymous said...

"Or you could go to a reputable instructor that hasn't been convicted of fraud."


Yeah one of those "reputable" instructors that hits on female students? Or one of those "reputable" instructors that trys to swindle you in a land deal? Or one of those "reputable" instructors thats such a lard ass he cant carry AIWB? Or one of those "reputable " instructors with the cute little robot target?
Or one of those "reputable" instructors whos idea of dynamic movement is a timewarp step to the right?
I dont give a rats ass about some bullshit "fraud" charge. If you want to learn how to win a fight then you go to the place where the instructors teach you how to fight. You most definately do not go to a school ran by range queens. I dont actually know Gabe Suarez but I have trained at his classes with his instructors and they are hands down a quality bunch. But if want to keep thinkng your magic 1911 will save you then thats fine march on.

Anonymous said...

"Spit that Kool-Aid out, kid; it's bad for you."


Ma'am I aint been a kid in 20 years and that aint kool-aid its the white lightning of cold hard fact :)

Tam said...

If your sensei tells you not to train in other dojos and has a dedicated forum for nuthuggers to kiss his ass where dissent is ruthlessly suppressed, then your sensei is a joke.

If your sensei is more worried about you not spending money with other instructors than he is with your development as a martial artist, then your sensei is a joke.

Anonymous said...

Not sure which is the greater indicia of suckage, the whacky dance video so full of fail or the weirdo faux "students" defending their cult leader in comments.

Molon Labe said...

I've got guys from 7th and 10th Group that are roughly the same age as Bill Beasley appears to be. Neither of them recognize him and neither of them recollect anyone named William or Bill Beasley.

There was a Bill Beasley in 12th Group during the Vietnam era but he would probably be quiet a bit older than the hombre in the video.

So, I'm no freaking help at all but I'll continue to sniff around and see if I can confirm or deny.

FWIW, again based on the guy's age, he would have been SF prior to 9/11. As such, he would have been very good at FID but would not have been learning most of the crap (being polite there) you see in that video. The "tactics" in that video are laughable and any real longtabber that attended that training would immediately unass the range and get his money back.

If you're feeling froggy, you can send his info to professionalsoldiers.org. If he's SF, one of them will know him. If he's not, one of them will eat his breakfast.

Nowayoutbutup said...

If you want to vet this gentleman these folks can help.
Make sure he is actualy claiming to be SF either in writing or verbaly on tape as this is a serious deal. Like felony serious.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=117

Anonymous said...

"If your sensei tells you not to train in other dojos and has a dedicated forum for nuthuggers to kiss his ass where dissent is ruthlessly suppressed, then your sensei is a joke.

If your sensei is more worried about you not spending money with other instructors than he is with your development as a martial artist, then your sensei is a joke"



I started to post a really long ass reply to this bullshite but I really dont care what you think.
I made a comment on your little blog and you guys went all, defend the dogma and kiss Clint Smiths holy pecker. So be it put, your heads back in the square range hole. I will be on my way and forget that I came here.

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:19... Don't let the door hit you on the fourth point of contact.

Caleb said...

What's funny is the only guy talking about Clint Smith, 1911s, and kissing dicks is Anon.

My lulz are nearly maxed out.

Tam said...

"I started to post a really long ass reply to this bullshite but I really dont care what you think. "

Really? 'Cause I'm losin' all kinds of sleep over your thoughts.

Nuthugger.

parabarbarian said...

What wrong? They wear black outfits. They carry black plastic guns. They have high capacity magazines. I play video games so I know that shooting lost of bullets really fast and cool outfits is what wins gunfights.

God, Gals, Guns, Grub said...

Awww, Tam, the pulled the video of youtube... now it's back to three stooges reruns late night TV to entertain myself...

Dann in Ohio

Tim Ellwood said...

I guess they couldn't take the heat and they got out of the kitchen!
or their shoe sponsor told them to pull it.

pdb said...

The internets, thankfully, are forever.

Don said...

The main problem I have with the reputable trainers named here is the limited number of classes they offer. For example, if I wanted to train with Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch, I would have to lay down a $500 nonrefundable deposit to hold a training date 13 months from today for the introductory level of handgun training.

I could take an NRA basic handgun course and shoot a couple dozen rounds in 10 hours of training. Followed by the NRA personal protection outside the home course to fire another few dozen rounds in 8 hours of training.

Or, I can pay close attention to the "disreputable" Front Sight marketing, acquire training certificates on the cheap, and get 20 high quality training days for less than $1000. I can attend whenever I have time available without having to schedule a year in advance.

Tam said...

Don,

"The main problem I have with the reputable trainers named here is the limited number of classes they offer. For example, if I wanted to train with Clint Smith..."

Actually, you and the anonymous Gabe Suarez groupie are the only ones to reference Clint.

Go look at DocGKR's list: It contains 21 different trainers/schools/instructors. Surely one of them has a class opening.

Tam said...

Here it is again to save you the scrolling: "Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Kyle Lamb/VTAC, Paul Howe/CSAT, Larry Vickers/Vickers Tactical, Scotty Reitz/ITTS, Pat Rogers/EAG, Jeff Gonzales/Trident Concepts, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, Magpul Dynamics, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, Kyle Defoor/Defoor Proformance Shooting, Jason Falla/Redback One, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, LMS Defense, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught."

TXGunGeek said...

As far as the claim of SF experience, it is right there on the homepage of their training group. "A.D.E consists of Special Ops and Law Enforcement instructors..."

Amusing is the sidebar video they have that starts with Bill introducing himself saying," My name's Bill Beasley and we do dangerous things." Damn straight they do.

Also,I would be curious what other school or instructor teaches students to engage one handed and not put their support hand on their gun until they are done shooting? That's just stoooopid.

Anonymous said...

The quote "A.D.E consists of Special Ops and Law Enforcement instructors..." is fine however, thats not the man making a claim at being something he may not be. If it refrences his "turkish oil wrestling" cage fighter trainer who apears to be 15 that could be taken in different ways. My online search only came up with an article ref him and that guy from the hills who screwed up his wife with plastic surgery. They intend on starting a cyber counter terriorism company. If it is half as awesome as their range training wing then we can all sleep well at night. I love to see dudes busted for claiming to be a warrior, but im not seeing that specific claim. In any light running to the center of a room on entry is as tactically sound as u can get, just like square dancing with your combat partner.

Molon Labe said...

@TXGunGeek

"Special Ops" != SF

Assuming for a second that they mean Special Operations (instead of whatever they read on the dustcover of their favourite Dick Marcinko abortion) they could have people who have served in a whole host of positions that have nothing to do with Special Forces. Special Forces is one part of Army Special Operations Forces (ARSOF). ARSOF includes SF, Rangers, Delta, 160th SOAR, Civil Affairs and MISO (what used to be PSYOP). That's just the Army. Each branch of the military has their own SOF... Even the Marines have gotten in on the game with their MARSOC bubbas.

In other words, one of their employees could have spent time kicking out bales of handbills from a C-130, jibber jabbering over a speaker or flying our boys around locales hot and inhospitable and accurately refer to themselves as "Special Ops".

I think the guy is still a D-bag but there will have to be more evidence of his SF claims before we can loose the dogs over at professionalsoldiers.com

Geodkyt said...

Sorry for the lateness, but two things:

1. Back in the days of yore, I was outside smoking a cigarette, when I spotted a most unusual sight -- a PFC in a funny green hat. Since SFQ Course graduates who are E4 or below are automatically promoted to SGT, this seemed odd to me. Turned out he was a cook in the support element, and he was supposed to war the green beret sinc ehe was assigned to the unit. Apparantly, the Army was going through one of its Many Faces Of Eve moments, and some senior officer decided he didn't like "Christmas Tree formations" (green berets for SF qualified personnel mixed in with maroon berets of the Airborne, but not SF-qualified, support types), so they mandated that everyone assigned to a particular command would wear the distinctive headgear of the command, for uniformity. Occaisionally, one of these support types would be bragging it up about being "in Special Forces" (I later ran into one of those asshats in the mall, in BDUs, wearing his headgear inside. . . I let him live. . .)



2. This "shooting" school, and others like it HAVE value as a training aid. After all, I once had a sergeant major who bet the battalion commander my company commander (the sergeant major's previous job was as my company 1SG) could find training value in anything.

The colonel laughed and said, "Done. Apocalypse Now. And no just saying, 'This is how we don't do it'. Actual training value -- they gotta learn something. Loser humps the HHC radio next FTX."

So, for professional development, the captain had all his platoon leaders (I was the senior squad leader, so I "wore three hats" since we had neither an assigned LT nor a SFC available), the XO, the acting 1SG (my nominal platoon sergeant), the mortar chief, and the scout section leader. We reviewed the portion about the Air Cav and moving the patrol boat. Afterwards, we did a professional AAR, starting with all the errors in the scenes.

At which point the CO looks around the room and says, "None of that is important -- what was the mission? It wasn't 'Attack the village so you could get the boat around it.' The mission was 'Move the boat past the choke point in the rivier'. . ."

"What, exactly, does any of this risky chaos, waste, destruction, and despair have to do with 'Move the boat'? why not just fly the boat AROUND the village, outside any potential ADA fire, and bloody well ignore the village for now?"

All of us, including the battalion commander sitting in the back observing, had a "DOH!" moment. (All of us except the 1SG, who was already ahead of the gag at the beginning, and the SGM, who expected this sort of thing from the captain.)

Training value -- even asshattery haz some. And watching my mot-very-well-respected battalion commander schlepping around a PRC25 in the heat afterwards was worth the price of admission by itself.

Larry said...

"Anybody writing for Concealed Carry Magazine is obviously a genius. And witty, too. Also, modest."
Don't forget good looking ;)
Glad to see TigerSwan in your list of good ones, I am scheduled to be in one of their classes come October.

Matt G said...

I'm confused. Now we're laughing at training to shoot one-handed?

Uh, that's an acceptable thing to train for.

There's plenty of legitimately stoopid stuff to jeer at, without slamming the excercise of skills that a real pistolero might actually occasionally need to possess.

Anonymous said...

There is something that really needs to be considered here too. The videos are gone, soon ADE will be too, but the people who were instructing won't be, and neither will their antics. A new name and lessons learned by this episode will keep them off the radar for a long time. They're obviously reading and participating, did you think they wouldn't? So how do we resolve this situation? Well; like it or not, the NRA is kind of like Harley Davidson... They won by default. Excelsior-Henderson... Indian... I can go on and on, but Harley is what everyone knows as the "face" of the industry. The NRA is the same for us. That being said, they are a large, cumbersome,  bureaucratic nightmare to try and navigate, and that's just their web sight. What I would propose is an independent "Angie's List" for the shooting industry. The reason I mention the NRA, is that it has to be endorsed, not on a back web page, not in a head line on a forum, but in every box of every handgun sold... Like the NRA is already doing. The NRA is squarely in the sights of every anti-gunner out there, and as such, they are usually what noobs will identify as the face of shooting and their new advocate. Sure they could join a forum, lurk for a while, and then leave when all the arguments break out over the ballistic inertia coefficient factors inherent to all .22 lr's being soooooo much higher than that of the .357, and thus making it a better one stop shot for defending your castle at 3am with your 15,000,000,000 lumen tacticool head light that you sleep in. And y'all are wonder how these people can sell their BS for so long with nobody calling them on it? A list set up, broken down by state and city, with user input and ratings, and endorsed very publicly by the face of the industry is the only way. Yes, ass clowns will exist, but that was the lesson we all should have learned from the Great Gecko. While opinions on training and tactics differ, we need to get our $&%+ together, and stop acting like this bunch of cock waffles in BDU's. The end game for some people is to ensure that we are all disarmed, period, no other answer is acceptable to them, and these fart barges are their poster children for grouping us all together as a bunch of loons. It's bigger than Billy Hardass here, it affects all of us.

Kevin said...

Thinking of the comment from the physician about JACHO and boards. I work for a hospital and truthfully I think the accreditation process, checklists, etc has increased patient safety and improves patient care. But it's an enormous pain, not cheap, and often they are concerned with trivial elements and ignore the elephants. A TJC accredited hospital isn't a guarantee of a great hospital, but one that can't manage to pass TJC after the appeals and corrective period is probably a bad hospital.

The reason why people play the game and pay the big bucks to TJC isn't really to improve patient care or just to have the certification, it's because to be paid by Medicare, or to have residents, etc you have to be a member of organization X and have a current accreditation from them. (For Medicare it's not the only requirement - CMS can and does occasionally show up and have their own inspections, but it is not nearly as frequent as TJC.)

So essentially the main reason why accreditation 'works' in healthcare is that government regulatory agencies require it if you want to get government money. I just can't see such a process working for a low margin mom & pop industry like firearms training that doesn't depend on a stream of government dollars. The most you'd end up with is a form based assessment process where the smart fraudsters get 'accredited' along with the competent.

I'd love to be wrong, but I have serious doubts.

KR said...

Suggested standards by which to assess trainers:

1) Documented level of shooting skill. That could be IPSC/IDPA rating, Advanced score at the Rogers school, meets firearms requirements for elite military/LEO units. Graduation from schools that award attendance certificates does NOT equal documented skill.

2) Documented level of teaching skill. Graduation from a formal shooting instructor course: NRA, FBI academy, military, IPSC/IDPA Range officer, etc. as appropriate for the content taught. Number of classes/students taught, years in business, and (most important) achievements by students.

3) Professionalism. Includes continuing education, conferences, competitions, and marketing approach.

Most credible instructors are happy to provide that kind of documentation and most have it in their marketing materials.

Goober said...

This is why i haven't been able to take part in any more of these types of classes than i have. I absolutely hate mall ninjas, with a fiery, stormy passion like you cannot even imagine.

While they are standing around bragging about their gear and picatinny rails and such (and making fun of my gear, just one which has drawn more blood than all of their stuff combined), and discussing the finer points of the most recent in breaching tactics (tactics which no real force uses, by the way) I'm laying at the range, shooting my big 300 damn accurately out to 1,000 yards. While they argue over whether it is a good idea to mount a light to the left or right side rail, I'm shooting empty .22 casings at 20 yards with my .357.

Theoretically, if it ever came to blows, these guys would still be putting on their $250 special door-breaching socks while i'm a quarter of a mile away in dirty blue jeans waiting for two of them to line up in my sights like Matthew Quigley.

I just can't be around people like that. They drive me nuts, and so I've denied myself these classes which i admit I may enjoy a lot...

chardin said...

Beasley likes to tell his students that he has a Special Forces background.

That’s what his school told me.

That’s what he told me, too:

Too bad it’s a total lie!

Oops!