tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post5830662102529092373..comments2023-11-10T04:17:00.492-05:00Comments on View From The Porch: Vandalism for Jesus.Tamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-51778404675725642272010-07-14T22:18:56.581-04:002010-07-14T22:18:56.581-04:00"...skewer a conservative cow and there will ..."...skewer a conservative cow and there will be Discussion."<br /><br />aka: "...the kinds of threads that garner...commentocausts."<br /><br />aka: "protracted argument".<br /><br />Kinda the point of a good blog. I for one wouldn't be here if this was some cozy little knitting circle. Well-stated disagreement is the raw material of logic, reason, and knowledge.<br /><br />"...my opinions alone are not sufficient to make (my commenters) feel unwelcome or specifically persecuted." <br /><br />Of course not. Challenged and invigorated, rather.<br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-12119047141656362222010-07-14T21:35:03.097-04:002010-07-14T21:35:03.097-04:00AT,
Had I noticed a news story about somebody van...AT,<br /><br />Had I noticed a news story about somebody vandalizing one of the innumerable "<i>When You Die, You Will Face God</i>" billboards around here, I probably would have commented on it.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-65762490742476416742010-07-14T21:19:06.169-04:002010-07-14T21:19:06.169-04:00"...if you ignore all my smack-talking about ..."...if you ignore all my smack-talking about G20 rioters and enviroterrorists and..."<br /><br />No, no...I mentioned religious and anti-religious zealotry.<br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-64924660618610492982010-07-14T18:20:52.383-04:002010-07-14T18:20:52.383-04:00ALLAH AKBAR! Oh, wait. Hail budda. er, no. My ...ALLAH AKBAR! Oh, wait. Hail budda. er, no. My lord and saviour is jesus. Wait, isn't that a hispanic name? Well, if GAWD is talking to you, see a physician. The only "true" meaning is that we are all going to die. THEN we find out what is on the other side. People have been finding out for thousands of years. So pick your favorite superstition and give them your money.Fiftycalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-84057300228649057002010-07-14T18:18:23.430-04:002010-07-14T18:18:23.430-04:00The figure is based on self-identification, which ...The figure is based on self-identification, which includes self-identification as part of a group on <i>whatever</i> grounds, which include but are not limited to wanting to have a protracted argument with me or Tam about it.<br /><br />My actual POINT was neither of us are specifically hostile to Christianity to the point that commenters who identify as such perceive the environment as hostile- they know what my opinions are, but evidently those opinions alone are not sufficient to make them feel unwelcome or specifically persecuted.<br /><br />As to where I judge the wingness of Tam's audience (and the percentage faithful), it's mostly from the kinds of threads that garner universal agreement versus commentocausts. I wouldn't call myself right-wing either, but generally I can bash liberals all day and only a few people I can name will speak up, but skewer a conservative cow and there will be Discussion.LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-76505135031486829002010-07-14T16:30:59.119-04:002010-07-14T16:30:59.119-04:00"it is unlikely to have been the subject of a..."<i>it is unlikely to have been the subject of a post at VFTP at all...</i>"<br /><br />Sure, if you ignore all my smack-talking about G20 rioters and enviroterrorists and...Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-76039148047465451872010-07-14T16:00:29.205-04:002010-07-14T16:00:29.205-04:00"Tam is a predominantly right-wing commentato..."Tam is a predominantly right-wing commentator, which means her commenters tend to be even more majority Christian than they are elsewhere in a 76% majority Christian nation. I actually have no idea what she actually believes, but I know my commenters are majority Christian as well, and I'm a rather outspoken atheist."<br /><br />Ignoring for now that I think Tam is actually as close to a "wingless" commentator as you'll find, fairly closely aligned with libertarianism, which is to say, unaligned except as pertains to infringement on personal rights and freedoms: <br /><br />Wow, LabRat. Don't know what the methodology there is, but I'm doubtin' the conclusions. 76% may well self-identify as Christian (to differentiate from say, Moslems or beelzebub admirers), but the percentage that would consider themselves ardent Christian let alone that might debate supernatural origin in print, would have to be much lower. And at least as to the more frequent commenters here at VFTP (also a decidedly unscientific anecdotal sampling, not representative of either the lurkers here or the populace in general), my guess is that those percentages could be safely reversed (24% Christian, 76% other religions including -and especially- atheism and agnosticism.<br /><br />As to the original post, I'm way late to the comment party, but there is simply no way to justify destroying the property of others except in self-defense (and no, an attack on your sensibility doesn't qualify for that; it's okay to want to kill the guy who blasphems your God or pisses on your flag so long as you don't act on the impulse). So the easy answer is that the lady is not only wrong, but as Tam alluded, potentially dangerous; if she has no problem stepping over the private property line she may be equally unable to distinguish where her rights end and mine or others' begin when there is a more direct and physical threat at hand. People do illogical things under the guise of divine providence all. the. time. Crazy dangerous is crazy dangerous no matter what the claimed justification; gotta be ready to kill the threat before it kills you.<br /><br />OTOH, if this argument were purely about vandalism and third-party support of it and the parties to it had motives other than religious or anti-religious zealotry, it is unlikely to have been the subject of a post at VFTP at all, let alone generate the comment torrent that this, and most, religiously-oriented posts do. That has more than a little to do with that "outspoken atheism" 'Rat spoke of, I think. And it's good to see articulate counter comments to that influence like Michael's to keep the discussion more honest and interesting.<br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-26129316880895232792010-07-14T12:00:38.211-04:002010-07-14T12:00:38.211-04:00Another point about the Pledge that is generally o...Another point about the Pledge that is generally overlooked.<br /><br />Adding "Under God" was spearheaded by a variety of religious groups -- most notably the Knights of Columbus (sort of like Masons for Roman Catholics).<br /><br />As Eisenhower said when he signed the change into law, the purpose was to FORCE children to make a formal acknowledgement of God every day in school.<br /><br />And some people don't understand why strict Constitutionalists might have a problem with that, even if they ARE devout believers in one or more gods. . . <br /><br />Yes, there are Contitutionalist conservatives of various pagan stripes, including Hindus. And even a bunch of us Christans want our Constitution WITHOUT a side order of Jesus thrown in every bag. If you can PROMOTE a particular religion, you can OPPOSE a particular religion -- I prefer the "Keep your friggin' hands off my church!" approach across the board, because I don't TRUST Mob Rule to protect religions that become unfashionable, and I'm not willing to risk that MY religion may not become unfashionable.Geodkythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328915597574377444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-533834159627036332010-07-14T09:37:06.929-04:002010-07-14T09:37:06.929-04:00Roberta X,
Well said, re the provenance of the ple...Roberta X,<br />Well said, re the provenance of the pledge.Leatherwinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11490062287496074480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-41077663457873960862010-07-14T08:54:02.057-04:002010-07-14T08:54:02.057-04:00People, please. Jesus taught that many will come ...People, please. Jesus taught that many will come in his name, but he does not know them, and they are NOT on his side, to paraphrase. I see the story of the responses of the "two thieves on the cross" who were crucified with Jesus as the most graphic parable in the New Testament. All of mankind has to chose what they will do with this Jesus. One ridiculed him and the other had faith in him. Those are the only two choices we have. Remember there are many who will declare they come in His name, but He does not know all of them. If you recall, the "BTK" serial killer was president of his local congregation for a number of years while he was commiting his heinous crimes. If you wish to ridicule Christendom based on that man's example then you are simply displaying how gullible and biased you are. Kentucky JonesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-64513433618883105622010-07-14T08:15:36.396-04:002010-07-14T08:15:36.396-04:00...As for the Pledge itself, no matter what words ......As for the Pledge itself, no matter what words have been added, it came along roughly a hundred years after the Revolution and was written by an avowed socialist with the intent of increasing nationalist sentiment. I suspect "our forefathers" would have had very mixed views of such a periodically-recited loyalty oath.Roberta Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09956807794520627885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-20869606539915599172010-07-14T08:02:02.529-04:002010-07-14T08:02:02.529-04:00Micheal writes, "You know, we could be on the...Micheal writes, "You know, we could be on the same team. We are powerful allies. We would also be powerful enemies."<br /><br /> Yup, such a team! I'll write the books and you can burn 'em.<br /><br /> No thanks.Roberta Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09956807794520627885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-77753859496480977142010-07-14T05:53:59.414-04:002010-07-14T05:53:59.414-04:00In 1994, I tore down a flag that wasn't mine. ...In 1994, I tore down a flag that wasn't mine. It was a United States flag that had been flown until it was tattered and had holes in it. It was dripping its hem, and the leeward end was missing the last 3 inches, give or take, of fabric. It was, in my opinion, a disgrace. I took it down, and disposed of it properly. It was not mine to do, and I'm a little ashamed of this, especially because I had to bend the flagpole that wasn't mine to get it down. <br /><br />I felt, at the time, that the flag itself represented a vandalism of what it was supposed to represent. There was no dignity in flying that flag in that manner. <br /><br />But I was wrong, and I admit it.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-17271404555862639722010-07-14T00:51:38.088-04:002010-07-14T00:51:38.088-04:00Hell, the Dems have thrown the Jews and Israel und...<i>Hell, the Dems have thrown the Jews and Israel under the bus multiple times</i><br /><br />Not particularly. Carter tried to, and probably lost the Jewish vote as his reward. On the other side of the aisle Bush, Sr. tried strongarming Israel after the First Gulf War, and it certainly didn't help his re-election chances. Obama either doesn't care or didn't notice those two instances. It might be pertinent that one of the largest reservoirs of anti-Semitism in the contemporary USA is the black community. They'll say something offensive, often not realizing there is a Jew present, and then get offended with the Jew because the Jew gets offended. Whites, by contrast, who come out with a insulting remark will usually grovel and apologize.<br /><br />But any hesitations over the treatment of Israel by the Democrats are usually overcome by the importance of the Religious Right in the GOP. No, Mr. Protestant evangelist on TV urging me to vote, I don't want a theocracy, especially if Christians are running it. Christian theocracies have a way of eventually running their Jews out of town, if they don't kill them first.<br /><br />The only Jews who reliably vote for the GOP nowadays are the Orthodox and ultraOrthodox; but of course they want a theocracy themselves. They just want a different set of clergy to be in charge and only care about it if it's located in Israel.kishnevihttp://kishnevi.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-82138015962934415572010-07-13T22:59:54.803-04:002010-07-13T22:59:54.803-04:00"We are powerful allies. We would also be pow..."We are powerful allies. We would also be powerful enemies."<br /><br />OK. Count me on the enemy side then.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02996122023499439670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-32754177588898389882010-07-13T22:11:58.208-04:002010-07-13T22:11:58.208-04:00kishnevi, jewish people like yourself are a proble...kishnevi, jewish people like yourself are a problem if you're voting for Dems. Hell, the Dems have thrown the Jews and Israel under the bus multiple times. It's like you have Battered Jew Syndrome.Jaysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13989165537637020369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-42625567895915565272010-07-13T21:48:28.617-04:002010-07-13T21:48:28.617-04:00My faith isn't a justification for dumping on ...My faith isn't a justification for dumping on other people, including destroying their property. The last time I checked, Jesus was a big fan of that Golden Rule thing. It must be important if it's in red letters, right? :)Sarahhttp://sarahandmom.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-77539701815901408742010-07-13T21:23:21.623-04:002010-07-13T21:23:21.623-04:00The WND gal represents 1) the reason I thank God e...The WND gal represents 1) the reason I thank God every day for living in a country that has the First Amendment and 2)have never ever been tempted to vote for a Republican candidate.<br /><br />She after all does have a good deal in common with the folks who run JewsKilledJesus dot com. Don't want to toxify the thread with an actual link to that place, but if you go there, you will find the folks behind look rather familiar. In fact, they've already been mentioned upthread.kishnevihttp://kishnevi.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-39070493592858057932010-07-13T18:58:28.671-04:002010-07-13T18:58:28.671-04:00FYI: "this Popehat guy" is actually a co...FYI: "this <a href="http://www.popehat.com/" rel="nofollow">Popehat</a> guy" is actually a collective; I've been reading them for around three years after being pointed there by <a href="http://OverLawyered.com" rel="nofollow">OverLawyered.com</a> which I've been reading even longer.Data Vikingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-1142468344984864942010-07-13T18:57:26.805-04:002010-07-13T18:57:26.805-04:00I perhaps put a little bit more pepper on the repl...I perhaps put a little bit more pepper on the reply than I would have having had a less stressful week, but when I say "outspoken", I mean I try to be thoughtful and discuss such issues frequently rather than leaving the question of belief politely unmolested. You can probably see how those questions might have read as "First off, are you an asshole? Have you ever considered not being an asshole?"<br /><br /><i>The fact is that in 1954, one major difference was that freedom of religion or from religion in the US versus the state is god in the fascist and communist governments. Under God reinforced that. It was one of the founding tenets of the US if poorly protected from time to time. You are free to partake of or not as you wish. The Supreme Court has defined the limits well enough over time.</i><br /><br />So you say. I see it as highlighting the contrast between <i>officially atheist</i> totalitarian regimes and the God-fearing USA. Regardless rather than highlighting religious freedom, it made a statement of patriotic faith less inclusive when it had been more before the edit. I am not very interested in fighting the battle because I regard it as a trivial one- I have no particular right not to feel like a minority when I am one, nor is the majority obligated not to act like the majority- but I see the point of the sign and think it a valid one. And it's still ludicrous to look at a battle over a sign that reverts to the original text and say our forefathers would be ashamed of the change.<br /><br />Regardless, the subject at hand regarding the low opinion we have of this writer specifically hinges on her being willing to put aside her normal principles and see through the lens of "us and them" instead. I'm sure she would have regarded it a great outrage had an atheist group defaced a church sign, yet it would have been exactly the same behavior. This willingness to set aside right and wrong, or to hitch it to group identity, is what is being criticized.<br /><br />Why the comparison to the actual necktie partiers? Because they felt themselves to be acting as righteous Christians for the same reasons, just writ much deadlier.LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-89246505588991709442010-07-13T18:43:39.322-04:002010-07-13T18:43:39.322-04:00Wrong, maybe.
Being a felony vandal
myself, I can...Wrong, maybe.<br /><br />Being a <a href="http://staghounds.blogspot.com/2006/04/my-felony-crime.html" rel="nofollow">felony vandal</a><br />myself, I can't say it's NEVER justified or ALWAYS unreasonable.<br /><br />(But I did turn myself in.)<br /><br />I fail to understand what part of "One nation, indivisible" is contrary to, or insulting to, the Christian faith or its believers. <br /><br />Is divisibility of government in the Gospels?staghoundshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05976667812875074135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-19141563435260990332010-07-13T18:28:56.062-04:002010-07-13T18:28:56.062-04:00Gerry,
"Vandalism is wrong"
Period-mot...Gerry,<br /><br />"<i>Vandalism is wrong</i>"<br /><br />Period-motherfucking-full-stop.<br /><br />Anybody too dumb to grasp this simple fact is welcome to not read my ignernt maunderings.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-22519426432693698702010-07-13T18:26:01.767-04:002010-07-13T18:26:01.767-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.staghoundshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05976667812875074135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-63514815164378869012010-07-13T17:54:43.911-04:002010-07-13T17:54:43.911-04:00Labrat,
I would never defend vandalism or the des...Labrat,<br /><br />I would never defend vandalism or the destruction of private property. I can not see how she can based on her stated Christian beliefs. What I find a "leap of faith" is that leads to mob mentality.<br /><br />The fact is that in 1954, one major difference was that freedom of religion or from religion in the US versus the state is god in the fascist and communist governments. Under God reinforced that. It was one of the founding tenets of the US if poorly protected from time to time. You are free to partake of or not as you wish. The Supreme Court has defined the limits well enough over time.<br /><br />I'm not interested in people telling me there is no God or there is and he's pissed you ate that hamburger on Good Friday. There is no logic in faith or love so arguing about who is right is mute. We agree to disagree and we will all find out in the answer to the Big question in the end.<br /><br />If my snarky reply offended you I do apologize.<br /><br />GerryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-57449226205332965762010-07-13T17:52:39.075-04:002010-07-13T17:52:39.075-04:00Tam,
I want to mock her turgid phrases that proud...Tam,<br /><br /><i>I want to mock her turgid phrases that proudly display the kind of reasoning ability you don't often encounter outside the bins in the produce section at your local grocery store. But the truth is, she scares me a little.</i><br /><br />There's a reason that publication is known in some circles as "the Worldnutdaily."wolfwalkernoreply@blogger.com