tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post6361713440585223295..comments2023-11-10T04:17:00.492-05:00Comments on View From The Porch: That's a puzzler, and no mistake...Tamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-33889060630405886162012-06-11T19:29:19.482-04:002012-06-11T19:29:19.482-04:00Purpose-built devices require care and feeding; ca...Purpose-built devices require care and feeding; calculating keeping charged, testing batteries, and a service plan. It's not the initial cost, it's the upkeep.<br /><br />Nonetheless, I've sen sillier cellular location device use cases.Ian Argenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03704336044732061128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-32603395094279429702012-06-11T16:44:52.127-04:002012-06-11T16:44:52.127-04:00My bet is that it was a purpose-built device. Why ...My bet is that it was a purpose-built device. Why wouldn't the banks move into the 21st century in this area with the amounts of money that are at stake?Jake (formerly Riposte3)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02976718318892210404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-89936113764030473452012-06-11T16:39:51.339-04:002012-06-11T16:39:51.339-04:00Not saying a cell phone couldn't have been use...Not saying a cell phone couldn't have been used as the locator, just that the location data was not obtained from the phone company, and certainly not by the bank sniffing equipment ID's from the lobby. Theory above was that teller could have pitched their personal device into bag with location enabled. At which point you don't need anyone's permission but the teller's. Or there was a purpose-built device tossed in.Ian Argenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03704336044732061128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-71659372928734993922012-06-11T16:31:04.772-04:002012-06-11T16:31:04.772-04:00You forgot the part of cell-phone tracking where t...You forgot the part of cell-phone tracking where the cops have to serve a subpoena on the cell phone company, and satisfy their legal departments that the cops have the right to pull customer proprietary network info and other sensitive and confidential info. Real life isn't a police procedural, and sniffing cell phone hardware info gets you zip legally useful info in anything like real time. Plus, I don't think it's is even technically possible - for a variety of reasons that info isn't transmitted in the clear by the mobile.<br />(I'm not randomly speculating, I have some specialized domain information here - but all of it can be confirmed by open sources.)Ian Argenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03704336044732061128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-43365871765506998822012-06-11T16:09:27.456-04:002012-06-11T16:09:27.456-04:00Anon 3:50,
"Lojack can disable the car remot...Anon 3:50,<br /><br />"<i>Lojack can disable the car remotely. So can OnStar, etc...</i>"<br /><br />Please read the previous comments.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-67251079308443639442012-06-11T15:50:35.553-04:002012-06-11T15:50:35.553-04:00Lojack can disable the car remotely. So can OnStar...Lojack can disable the car remotely. So can OnStar, etc. If they were using that, it'd been a lot easier to just wait for a longer expanse of road and then kill the ignition. Cops in pursuit just look for the stall. It's been done before (LA chases are less fun with stolen LoJack cars).<br /><br />My head went to cell phone tracking. It requires fast access to the records, but getting the id of the phone means you can snag it's records and do real-time monitoring of the phone. Of course, it's in a car or a pocket and only good to an intersection. Calling it and hoping to hear it nearby fails because perp hears the phone ring and then turns it off, knowing how he is being tagged.<br /><br />How do they get the id? Good question, but the first answers I have are fairly Orwellian: bank is tracking EIN (or equivalent) of all customers entering the bank. In event of robbery give police EINs, backtrack account names and run fast records search for demographic data. That could take almost two minutes. Toss customers in good standing; or isolate those with priors. Maybe another three minutes, and this assumes several people in the bank at the time of the robbery.<br /><br />I have worked for firms that capture EINs of all phones transiting their lobby. They have a sign that basically says, "If you don't like, keep your phone out of our private offices." <br /><br />It's not unusual in Silicon Valley's deep research centers. Looks like it's hitting the banks, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-79785365235585940982012-06-11T11:16:14.325-04:002012-06-11T11:16:14.325-04:00Jake,
Volokh, (who admitted that he's no 4A s...Jake,<br /><br />Volokh, (who admitted that he's no 4A specialist) wrote that initial post in the supposition that the search was based on a tip, not on a tracking device of some sort.<br /><br />Also note that staghounds knows what he's talking about when it comes to RAS. ;)Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-25139371831683301492012-06-11T10:57:45.280-04:002012-06-11T10:57:45.280-04:00This is going to turn on the "reasonable"...This is going to turn on the "reasonable" part of RAS. Was it "reasonable" to detain and search a 95% innocent group?<br /><br />This case is at the uncomfortable intersection of elegant theory ("the right of the people to be secure in their...effects...") and the messy reality of "there's a violent armed criminal in this radius."<br /><br />I think that it's for the best that only the specific persons were picked up. Anyone else who might have gotten caught with contraband in their vehicles would have had a much stronger case against the "reasonableness" of the search.Ian Argenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03704336044732061128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-39237275094864731652012-06-11T10:54:26.961-04:002012-06-11T10:54:26.961-04:00@ staghounds: Eugene Volokh noted a good argument ...@ staghounds: <a href="http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/05/police-searching-for-bank-robber-stop-all-cars-at-intersection-handcuff-drivers-search-cars/" rel="nofollow">Eugene Volokh noted a good argument</a> that their RAS was not sufficient for warrantless searches, which I quoted earlier:<br /><br /><i>"The mere fact that someone is present at the place where a criminal may be present can’t provide such probable cause. As the Court held in Ybarra v. Illinois (1979), rejecting the argument that a search warrant that authorized the search of a tavern, based on probable cause that evidence of crime would be found in the tavern, also authorized the search of tavern patrons,"</i><br /><br />This seems very similar, in that there was certainly probable cause that evidence of a crime would be found in the intersection, but there was no RAS that any <i>specific person</i> was in possession of that evidence. To quote from Volokh's cited case, <i>Ybarra v. Illinois (1979)</i>:<br /><br /><i>"Where the standard is probable cause, a search or seizure of a person must be supported by probable cause <b>particularized with respect to that person</b>. This requirement cannot be undercut or avoided by simply pointing to the fact that coincidentally there exists probable cause to search or seizure another or to search the premises where the person may happen to be…."</i><br />(emphasis mine)<br /><br />From a preservation-of-liberty perspective, I strongly believe that this kind of "stop and search everyone" approach should not be allowed. RAS <i>specific to the person</i> should be required for a warrantless search, and I personally would be very strongly tempted to exclude this evidence.Jake (formerly Riposte3)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02976718318892210404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-64755629211423012602012-06-11T10:14:28.038-04:002012-06-11T10:14:28.038-04:00And it's entirely possible that the transmitte...And it's entirely possible that the transmitter was a quick thinking teller's iPhone, turned on to "find me" mode. <br /><br />I do not believe this evidence will be excluded, the RAS is pretty good. <br /><br />Tough call. Glad no one was any worse hurt than being cuffed and having to sit on the curb. <br /><br />If I were the city attorney I'd offer the detainees $1500 each for their hour of frightened inconvenience. The ones that sue will get less from a jury I'd make sure had plenty of minimum wage black folks aboard.staghoundshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05976667812875074135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-78259805713455486382012-06-10T23:14:35.688-04:002012-06-10T23:14:35.688-04:00First thing I idly wondered about: what's the ...First thing I idly wondered about: what's the battery state on the transmitter? There are many ways to subtly screw up power cells, not all of which will be obvious to a spot inspection.<br />Which in no way obviates Tam@2130Ian Argenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03704336044732061128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-56251615991183716482012-06-09T21:30:07.054-04:002012-06-09T21:30:07.054-04:00Matt G,
"But I promise you that a good porti...Matt G,<br /><br />"<i>But I promise you that a good portion of those who are vocally critical of how they did it here would have been just as critical of the "do-nothing police who let a dangerous armed robber go, when they had the tools to catch him!!!"</i>"<br /><br />This. This is the thing that bugs me.<br /><br />If I'd been in a cop car, I'd have done something very similar.<br /><br />If I'd been in one of the detained cars. I'd have sued.<br /><br />If I'd been from the bank and my bugged cash had vanishes, I"d have tried to burn the po-po.<br /><br />There're just a lot of ways to lose, here...Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-22336742483005877052012-06-09T19:11:16.204-04:002012-06-09T19:11:16.204-04:00I'm betting that the federal bank robbery case...I'm betting that the federal bank robbery case isn't blown. <br /><br />How do you know that he would have moved to a less-heavily populated area? <br /><br />Why do we believe that he would go to a location with fewer potential victims? <br /><br />Part of the problem with comm lags is that you don't know how big the lag is. Typically, the guy who sees the vehicle's location <i>doesn't</i> see the patrol units' locations. That makes it easy to accidentally overtake the guy, tipping him to the fact that he's being followed. What happens when he parks the car in an apartment complex, gets out, leaves the bag with the dough and goes to the complex next door? (Which I would do, were I him.) <br /><br />Look, I HATE that innocent people were detained. With a burning hot passion I hate that. Worse, I hate that cops pointed guns at people who were not (and often clearly were not) even worth suspicion. That's a different issue. <br /><br />But I promise you that a good portion of those who are vocally critical of how they did it here would have been just as critical of the <i>"do-nothing police who let a dangerous armed robber go, when they had the tools to catch him!!!"</i>Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-51865736121081032432012-06-08T16:21:25.011-04:002012-06-08T16:21:25.011-04:00@ Matt G: You make some good points, and your expe...@ Matt G: You make some good points, and your experience is helpful, but let me counter with two points that are (in my mind) rather important:<br /><br />1) He was making a serious effort to escape by stealth, not speed. If he holds to that pattern - which he probably will do as long as he thinks it's working - he is not an <i>immediate</i> threat to anyone. With the tracking device, he can be followed and found without following closely enough to spook him, and catching him can wait for a less publicly dangerous situation.<br /><br />b) Cornering him the way they did, and in the setting they did it in, created a potential shooting gallery of innocent bystanders, and it's only <b>pure dumb luck</b> that the robber wasn't someone willing to kill everybody in sight in an effort to get a way.<br /><br />This doesn't even consider the possibility that they've totally blown the court case by creating a situation where the only evidence linking him to the robbery gets excluded from the trial, or the civil suits that the ~40 people whose Rights were violated can bring against the city.Jake (formerly Riposte3)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02976718318892210404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-1424460696207383112012-06-08T13:42:57.782-04:002012-06-08T13:42:57.782-04:00Tomcat, I was still drinking my first cup of coffe...Tomcat, I was still drinking my first cup of coffee when I asked, at which point my brain realized I could probly find it quicker myself...thanks though!Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11924993310937754220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-45859752086096597682012-06-08T12:21:54.796-04:002012-06-08T12:21:54.796-04:00The whole thing reminds me faintly of a time long ...The whole thing reminds me faintly of a time long ago in Spain when the Gaurdia Civil showed-up and cordoned-off the designated hash-smoking corner of a Piazza, and ran everybody through a check-point. <br />Of course nobody aws found with a gun (or it was smuggled-out post-haste), but Barcelona Commies and Andalusian Separatists had been chucking Molotov cocktails off the roofs a day before and the cops were kinda up-tight. The U.S. Passport only helped identify a fool with no political aspirations or compass...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-27984747028433047552012-06-08T10:33:54.600-04:002012-06-08T10:33:54.600-04:00Well if there were some protected minority, black ...Well if there were some protected minority, black or gay, holder might be interested. That would then let the Feds to 'monitor' the activities of this police department.kenlowderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13176720736897652878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-44889910580639228372012-06-08T10:26:58.917-04:002012-06-08T10:26:58.917-04:00"...those officers deserve the full tilt boog..."...those officers deserve the full tilt boogie treatment from the justice department..."<br />Holder's "Justice Department"???<br />Yeah like that would happen..<br />Except for that unfortunately dated thought; comments are spot-on!Boat Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-45703428485088955832012-06-08T09:25:29.668-04:002012-06-08T09:25:29.668-04:00you internet faster than me!you internet faster than me!TomcatTCHhttp://tomcatshanger.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-74332075819940554022012-06-08T09:23:58.500-04:002012-06-08T09:23:58.500-04:00Ruth, we live in the future, it's the age of t...Ruth, we live in the future, it's the age of the internet.<br /><br />Here's a video of the screen cap in question.<br />http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/06/03/bystanders-get-caught-up-in-hunt-for-bank-robber/<br /><br />Here's how I got there.<br /><br />I binged "CBS channel 4", CBS Miami, Denver, and Minnesota are the top hits.<br /><br />The logo in the lower right corner matches CBS channel 4 in Denver, which I checked out due to it's proximity to Aurora CO.<br /><br />Here's an early story on the stop.<br />http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/06/02/aurora-police-detain-person-of-interest-in-bank-robbery/<br /><br />The imagery matches up just fine, and the angle works as well. The talking head mentions "heavy weapons" and "hiding behind those metal shields".<br /><br />That lead me to the first link. Tada.TomcatTCHhttp://tomcatshanger.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-23324472742353788842012-06-08T09:12:39.664-04:002012-06-08T09:12:39.664-04:00Never mind, found it: http://denver.cbslocal.com/v...Never mind, found it: http://denver.cbslocal.com/video/7363946-aurora-police-chief-describes-wild-search-for-bank-robber/<br /><br />that news channel has several video's on the stop, including all sorts of bits and pieces of footage....Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11924993310937754220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-35822494088869066492012-06-08T08:52:41.741-04:002012-06-08T08:52:41.741-04:00The photo on LRC, do we know where it came from? ...The photo on LRC, do we know where it came from? I can totally believe it came from this incident, but there's no reference as to where it came from and I'd like to see all of it.Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11924993310937754220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-36905918796537934092012-06-08T07:17:06.652-04:002012-06-08T07:17:06.652-04:00Hadn't seen the video with the shields and the...Hadn't seen the video with the shields and the long guns and the whole nine yards...<br /><br />Wow.<br /><br />Yeah, I agree with the commenter at Volokh's: If you're heavy in Aurora municipal bonds, sell!Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-45330013216190496512012-06-08T01:00:31.836-04:002012-06-08T01:00:31.836-04:00I've got 22 years behind a badge and this was ...I've got 22 years behind a badge and this was a major constitutional cluster from the get go.It's obvious they had a bundle of cash Lo Jacked from the picture of the FBI guy in the raid jacket holding the little black box over the Oakley wearing buzz cut Judge Dredd wanna be's behind the shield.They had no description just a vector on the signal and they decided stopping everyone and creating a bunch of possible colateral damage was the best bet. I maybe just a good ole boy with a badge from Alabama but they screwed the pooch. Had I been in one of those cars I would have co operated, then dialed 1-800 shyster,shyster,& shyster for the lawsuit.I also for the first time in my career feel that those officers deserve the full tilt boogie treatment from the justice department to include a tour of one of our lovely federal prison camps as an object lesson as a warning to future little Storm Troopers in training.WGBJR aka Gruntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-72933792870281797342012-06-07T23:45:32.290-04:002012-06-07T23:45:32.290-04:00[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwexugxApc8&am...[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwexugxApc8&feature=related[/url]toadoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821769510849208141noreply@blogger.com