tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post7138561597003332586..comments2023-11-10T04:17:00.492-05:00Comments on View From The Porch: SWATing flies with a hammer, and not doing it well.Tamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-13070849727434865862010-05-23T10:24:57.835-04:002010-05-23T10:24:57.835-04:00"...more heat than light here..."
And i..."...more heat than light here..."<br /><br />And in that shoot house Tam mentioned...<br /><br />Still, some contrition is better than none.<br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-62545447131694159102010-05-23T09:44:32.230-04:002010-05-23T09:44:32.230-04:00"You are being intentionally obtuse."
..."You are being intentionally obtuse." <br /><br />To an extent. The analogy breaks down when we express sentient beings as equivalent to dead tools. However, my point was that the existence of a group to be used is to be considered as a tool. <br /><br />Note that I'm more simile-driven in my comments here, than metaphor. <br /><br />I'll close with my reiteration that there's more heat than light here.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-89754370274910913082010-05-22T17:22:50.611-04:002010-05-22T17:22:50.611-04:00"Would I sit in a shoot house as a hostage wh..."Would I sit in a shoot house as a hostage while Podunk PD SWAT stacked on the door? Hellz no."<br /><br />Don't blame you. I've been killed four times in practice, as a hostage/bystander.staghoundshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05976667812875074135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-32044667753134295162010-05-22T10:27:12.933-04:002010-05-22T10:27:12.933-04:00Wikipedia, verbatim:
"Hoplophobia , from the...Wikipedia, verbatim:<br /><br />"Hoplophobia , from the Greek hoplon, or weapon, is defined as the "fear of firearms" or alternatively, an irrational fear of weapons in general, and describes a specific phobia."<br /><br />Alipedia, as meant here:<br /><br />"Coplophobia, from the slang cop, is defined as the "fear of police" or alternatively, an irrational fear of police activity in general, and describes a specific fear of the abuse, misuse or overuse of force in the line of duty.<br /><br />You are being intentionally obtuse. If you actually believe that the particular crowd that gathers at the "venue" of Tamara's porch is "appropriately" analogous to the crowd that would deny *individual* means to defend from threats (including those operating under auspices of .gov), then I withdraw my former high regard for your opinion.<br /><br />Because a tool's a tool, yes? Regardless of cost and all that that implies, regardless of need which you say is nearly nonexistent, regardless of the opinions of those who are purportedly served and pay all the bills and who in this learned forum are fairly universally against, we want our badass paramilitary toys...I mean tools.<br /><br />Keep on feeding that second definition above, that's what this society really needs; more distrust and disdain for a necessary evil.<br /><br />What a "tool". And yes, this time I'm name-calling. <br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-37108430236623141222010-05-22T01:09:59.053-04:002010-05-22T01:09:59.053-04:00If my cool was ever gotten on this thread, it was ...If my cool was ever gotten on this thread, it was in the embarrassment at my misspelling of the word "legitimate." Oof. <br /><br />I had said, <i>"To claim that it is wrong to have simply on the face of it sounds very much like the arguments of the hoplophobes that argue that guns shouldn't be owned because their only purpose is to kill."</i><br /><br />"Hoplophobia" is the fear of Things. The tool that a SWAT team represents is thing. I stand by my statement that fear of a thing rather than how it's used is similar to what the hoplophobes say. If we're parsing statements, I pointed at the argument was similar to theirs, not that those making the argument were hoplophobes.<br /><br />You asked me to look at Montie's comments. He said that the dynamic entry is commonplace (it's not, in my own experience), which is bad, but that it still has its place in a cop's bag of tricks. <br /><br /><i>"Another dumbass, insulting comment from an unexpected source in an inappropriate venue and context."</i> <br /><br />Please direct me to those which would be appropriate.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-87343266758675221882010-05-21T13:29:39.280-04:002010-05-21T13:29:39.280-04:00"There's a legitemate (sic) tool to be us..."There's a legitemate (sic) tool to be used, and your piling on and calling names doesn't make this fact un-true."<br /><br />Nowhere did I say otherwise...it is misuse and overuse that is at issue, and your own (non)experience notwithstanding, the case in point and the stats provided in the comment above yours show why.<br /><br />As to name-calling, it was your comment and not you the man that was termed "dumbass", and you will note that it was in response to your hoplophobe epithet. I am aware of your thoughtful and evenhanded approach to discussions of police work and firearms handling, which is why I said your statement was unexpected, insulting and uncalled for in this environment.<br /><br />"Don't draw yours and I won't draw mine"...I've always liked that tag-line of yours; if it had been applied in Detroit, that kid would still be alive and the b.g. would still be in jail. And if it had been applied in a virtual sense to your commentary, I wouldn't have responded negatively in-kind.<br /><br />It is events like the Detroit story that result in a compounded negative connotation and erosion of support for police work in general and encourages the growth of the very real concept that I termed Coplophobia even among law-and-order types. That is a very bad thing for us all, as our promiscuous and pc culture and a dearth of personal responsibility encourages lawlessness and the victimization of innocents. We need strong enforcement to counter this trend, and we certainly don't need to add fuel to the perception of necessary day-to-day police work as Government Agencies Using Military Tactics against our own citizens. And to the degree that these tactics are as rarely needed as you say, justifying their existence and cost is pretty difficult for most departments. If that is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, maybe some tarbabies just can't be cleaned up and made presentable.<br /><br />Thank you for your service, Matt...God bless and keep you and the rest of us safe from harm.<br /><br />Al TeregoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-53902937852629835572010-05-21T01:30:59.664-04:002010-05-21T01:30:59.664-04:00"Forget the blue line shit, Matt G; re-read M...<i>"Forget the blue line shit, Matt G; re-read Montie's comments above and learn from what he says."</i><br /><br />First, I'm a pretty harsh critic of stupid cop tricks. I don't have a thin blue line to follow-- I have an ethical one to follow. I happen to be pretty good at looking at both sides of the coin. Or so I've been told. <br /><br />Second, I <i>read</i> Montie's comments. Like where he said: <br /><br />"Dynamic entry techniques have become a commonplace way of doing business. There is an argument to be made for officer safety and I have heard most of them. Don't get me wrong. It has its place in the police bag of tricks, but it's not the ONLY trick we have at our disposal." <br /><br />Funny thing-- I disagree with the first half of this comment, and agree with the second half. I've NEVER, in 10 years, called for a dynamic entry on any warrant that I've written. I've never even seen one served, personally. So much for commonplace. <br /><br />I've practiced dynamic entry (for first responder active shooter situation training), and it's hard. Not impossible. Not even something that I would have to practice every day. But something that I would want to practice with a team of guys that I trusted, if I knew that I were to have to do it. I know of two SWAT teams that work in my area, and they hold Tac certs in addition to their regular duties. They get together and practice two to four times a month. Most of 'em seem to know their stuff, from what I can see. If you HAVE to send in a group of guys to a high-risk environment, I want to send them, because they work together on those entries a helluva lot more than I do. They're not going to freeze in the stack, blocking their buddy in the Fatal Funnel. That takes repetition, as a group. <br /><br />Everytime our local tac teams get called out, it's overtime for half or more of the team. The brass don't like calling them out. There's scrutiny. There's potential backlash. <br /><br />I'm not saying that there's not an on-going problem, but I'm saying that it's a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a legitemate tool to be used, and your piling on and calling names doesn't make this fact un-true.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-14095924231543305382010-05-20T23:59:39.084-04:002010-05-20T23:59:39.084-04:004.56 SWAT raids PER DAY.<a href="http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/01/45-swat-raids-per-day" rel="nofollow">4.56 SWAT raids PER DAY.</a>Fletchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719982260089858624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-60025153585471085382010-05-19T11:56:56.514-04:002010-05-19T11:56:56.514-04:00Rule Three Violation - Maybe Not: Police who carri...Rule Three Violation - Maybe Not: Police who carried out a raid on a family home that left a 7-year-old girl dead over the weekend were accompanied by a camera crew for a reality television show, and an attorney says video of the siege contradicts the police account of what happened... Police have said officers threw a flash grenade through the first-floor window of the two-family home, and that an officer's gun discharged, killing the girl, during a struggle or after colliding with the girl's grandmother inside the home. But Fieger said the video shows an officer lobbing the grenade and then shooting into the home from the porch...<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/17/AR2010051700703.html?sub=ARMichaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-58054384930714052352010-05-18T16:19:32.616-04:002010-05-18T16:19:32.616-04:00Jake,
The cops who ask for the warrant may not be...Jake,<br /><br />The cops who ask for the warrant may not be the cops who serve the warrant.<br /><br />In many cases the information included in the warrant comes from informants who embellish the amount of drugs, weapons and ferocity of the suspect. The informants has to produce for either money or to attempt to get a lighter sentencing when he/she ends up in court on thier own case.<br /><br />So a SWAT team gets Intel that the guy sleeps with a loaded AK, has kilo of dope and has stated he won't be taken alive. Turns out grandpa sells nickel bags of pot for running around money. <br /><br />GerryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-26530083615313717632010-05-18T13:50:26.729-04:002010-05-18T13:50:26.729-04:00Bram:
One of the reasons SWAT is moving to the ...Bram:<br /> One of the reasons SWAT is moving to the .223 is that it appears to have LESS penetrative ability on walls than 9mm does. The last 9mm incident I read about had a ND from a fumbled Glock go through two houses (# of walls not stated). I've no personal experience with .223 and walls, but have seen the result of steel core .308 and house walls. The round exited the first wall in two pieces, and only fragments exited the second (the exterior) wall. Some lead smears on an adjacent angled exterior wall, and a slight dent in a wood slat fence were found outside. Since the .223 is a more fragile and unstable bullet than .308, I think a correlation could be inferred as to .223/wall performance.Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722792638246578812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-17331729724907085202010-05-18T10:03:30.247-04:002010-05-18T10:03:30.247-04:00"Officers here can't just blow off a sear...<i>"Officers here can't just blow off a search warrant, for obvious reasons."</i><br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it usually the <b>cops</b> who have to <b>ask</b> the judge for the search warrant in the first place? The judge doesn't just write search warrants because he feels like it - someone has to ask for one first, as part of an investigation.<br /><br />If the cops don't think they need to search a home, they won't ask for a search warrant. They're not going to ask for one and then just blow it off.Jake (formerly Riposte3)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02976718318892210404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-74754736444201267442010-05-18T09:01:13.504-04:002010-05-18T09:01:13.504-04:00"To claim that it is wrong to have (SWAT) sim..."To claim that it is wrong to have (SWAT) simply on the face of it sounds very much like the arguments of the hoplophobes that argue that guns shouldn't be owned because their only purpose is to kill."<br /><br />Another dumbass, insulting comment from an unexpected source in an inappropriate venue and context.<br /><br />The comparison of the attitude that free individuals should be preemptively stripped of the means to protect themselves, to a real and demonstrably justified concern that the pressured employment of military tactics by government agents to avoid loss of funding and impress bureaucrats and audiences beyond irresponsible. Forget the blue line shit, Matt G; re-read Montie's comments above and learn from what he says.<br /><br />Hoplophobic? No, it's coplophobic...guess which one has more basis in fact?<br /><br />ATAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-64896717838013102492010-05-18T07:36:54.741-04:002010-05-18T07:36:54.741-04:00I used to cross-train with a part-time regional SW...I used to cross-train with a part-time regional SWAT Team when I was in the National Guard. All the ones I met were former Army & Marine Infantry types - hopefully got the Rambo out of their systems. <br /><br />They were pretty good at dynamic entry. Actually taught us how to enter WITHOUT killing everyone (the way I was taught in Marine Infantry School).<br /><br />The nice thing about the set-up, they are hardly ever used. It's not a big drain for any one department so there is no mayor or chief worried about losing funding. <br /><br />I've seen them in action once, for a hostage situtation. Never for dime-bag warrant stuff.Bramnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-45570059338804107612010-05-18T07:05:47.024-04:002010-05-18T07:05:47.024-04:00Matt,
"As noted by Tam, a SWAT team is a too...Matt,<br /><br />"<i>As noted by Tam, a SWAT team is a tool. It can be used correctly, or misused.</i>"<br /><br />I am really beginning to wonder how I feel about the idea of part time/ad hoc SWAT.<br /><br />Would I sit in a shoot house as a hostage while Podunk PD SWAT stacked on the door? Hellz no.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-18398506983425139662010-05-18T03:20:42.023-04:002010-05-18T03:20:42.023-04:00Light to heat ratio is a bit lacking, here.
Seem...Light to heat ratio is a bit lacking, here. <br /><br />Seems like, when people are excited, it's hard to make informed choices about best methods. A large department like Detroit would do well to have a special response unit. When serving a murder warrant on a shooter, it might be a good idea to have such a unit on scene. <br /><br />How to serve the warrant should be a question of scene, time, background of the location, background of the princple subjects, and resources. <br /><br />A little girl was killed, and something needs to change. That said, throwing the baby out with the bathwater seems a bit foolish. <br /><br />As noted by Tam, a SWAT team is a tool. It can be used correctly, or misused. To claim that it is wrong to have simply on the face of it sounds very much like the arguments of the hoplophobes that argue that guns shouldn't be owned because their only purpose is to kill.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-33061375632177658072010-05-18T01:40:15.142-04:002010-05-18T01:40:15.142-04:00I wonder how many crimes cops got away with when t...I wonder how many crimes cops got away with when the video wasn't there? At least with crims you know where they stand and can deal with it. What can you do with cops? Hope for the best? If only cops were just there to serve and protect the whims of the politicians and judges. It's when they become a law unto themselves and all the rest of us are just members from the other tribe.<br />My one brief encounter in this kind of situation was meeting a cop (on an innocent mission) at the top of my stairs at 2 in the morning with my Ruger in hand. I set it down quickly, but if he had pulled his weapon out I'de have put one through his adams apple.lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00011213166003657827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-50891090493290309942010-05-17T23:20:32.325-04:002010-05-17T23:20:32.325-04:00At best Officer Itchy Finger, negligently broke ru...At best Officer Itchy Finger, negligently broke rules 2 and 3. At worst, he thought that a 7 year old girl was a threat and was deliberately pointing his cool new SWAT toy at her while breaking rule 3. The difference between either scenario is the difference between manslaughter and homicide. "Following departmental procedure" should not be an affirmative defense to either.Armed Texanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06618815925795787133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-75775264501565174302010-05-17T23:12:25.886-04:002010-05-17T23:12:25.886-04:00I don't care how loudly you yell "POLICE!...<b><i>I don't care how loudly you yell "POLICE!" and "GET DOWN", he can't reverse gears quick enough to keep from getting ventilated for having that gun in his hand.</i></b><br /><br />Not to mention that <i>anyone</i> can yell "POLICE! GET DOWN!" Simply because someone has yelled that doesn't mean they are actually police. There have been a few cases that I've heard of where the criminals pretend they are the police while busting down a door, on the chance that it causes the homeowner to hesitate long enough for the criminal to either capture or kill them. <br /><br />Which means that the homeowner is caught in a dillemma: obey the commands and hope to god they really are the police, or assume they are criminals and continue attacking. The fact that these raids often happen at night make this a harder decision, since it's dark and the officers are likely shining lights in the homeowner's eyes, effectively blinding them and rendering them unable to see any badges or insignia.RCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-56543457588048563302010-05-17T23:06:45.622-04:002010-05-17T23:06:45.622-04:00Idiotic bastards and ignorant tools.Idiotic bastards and ignorant tools.Greg in Allstonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-61907337927368700362010-05-17T21:58:44.260-04:002010-05-17T21:58:44.260-04:00Whoops!, try this link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/i...Whoops!, try this link:<br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37191818/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001B https://www.blogger.com/profile/10586046436233366155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-91886246833961096642010-05-17T21:49:34.132-04:002010-05-17T21:49:34.132-04:00Mr. B - Nobody has seen the video yet but you may ...Mr. B - Nobody has seen the video yet but you may right.<br />http://detnews.com/article/20100517/METRO/5170374/Fieger--Video-challenges-police-account-in-fatal-shooting<br /><br />Staghound - I have no idea what your point is or what part of "tough shit" you are disputing. The deaths of innocents far outnumber the fired or convicted cops.Bramnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-40687621704841221202010-05-17T21:00:22.817-04:002010-05-17T21:00:22.817-04:00http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/17/ri-school-dis...http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/17/ri-school-district-agrees-rehire-fired-teachers/?test=latestnews<br /><br />New updates:<br /><br />Supposedly, the videotape disputes the officers version of the incident with the little girl.<br /><br />They fired FROM THE PORCH<br />.........BEFORE ENTERING.<br /><br />If true, then this was murder.B https://www.blogger.com/profile/10586046436233366155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-37041576120515457742010-05-17T20:35:18.142-04:002010-05-17T20:35:18.142-04:00"Oh, wait, maybe it is because we've got ..."Oh, wait, maybe it is because we've got all this cool gear and everything." That was my comment and I'll stand by it; it's right in line with the "use it or lose it" point of my calling you on your comparison of commenters here with anti-2A pants pissers...which btw is an especially ironic insult considering this particular venue.<br /><br />And even the other examples you mention have a justifiable basis, and every one, if a bit coarse in presentation, is a description of actual occurrences. <br /><br />If all of the SWAT units, their command, and their methods, were as pure and professional as you indicate, then the epidemic of "incidents" like the one at point here wouldn't be happening, and we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?<br /><br />Al Terego (AT)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-72912201339657673972010-05-17T19:56:10.953-04:002010-05-17T19:56:10.953-04:00I'm not saying my view is more righteous- actu...I'm not saying my view is more righteous- actually given my history it may be more suspect! But heated rhetoric brings us no closer to the truth.<br /><br />Anonymous 7.26, you must have missed "idiot Rambo wannabe".<br /><br /> Some more projection examples from above- if you believe that these comments describe a substantial amount of American police officers' thinking, then I'd submit you are wrong :<br /><br />tough shit if you live next door and they start spraying 5.56 rounds. They do little or no research on who else is in the house.<br /><br />Tough-shit if you are innocent and try to defend yourself. Tough shit if an idiot Rambo wannabe can’t handle a gun. Tough-shit if you react the wrong way to your door being broken down and grenades tossed into your house in the middle of the night.<br /><br />They simply don’t care that they are storming a house with children in it. This raid was totally unnecessary, lazy, criminally bad police work.<br /><br />Oh, wait, maybe it is because we've got all this cool gear and everything.<br /><br />when these servants of the peace break into a house in the middle of the night to serve a shop lifting warrant <br /><br />Just collateral damage in the war on terror, correct?staghoundshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05976667812875074135noreply@blogger.com