tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post8654257283324673719..comments2023-11-10T04:17:00.492-05:00Comments on View From The Porch: Dry-fire debate.Tamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-46080818415109455522010-05-25T03:46:02.758-04:002010-05-25T03:46:02.758-04:00Well, you can always stick a bit of leather or eve...Well, you can always stick a bit of leather or even silicone gasket maker (I find household silicone too soft) in the back of an empty case and call it a snap cap.<br /><br />Stick a bullet in front and it becomes a dummy round. Also a useful training tool.wrmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14102470737392693528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-79958853923488310732010-05-25T00:23:44.883-04:002010-05-25T00:23:44.883-04:005:54 PM, May 21, 2010
TJP said...
Geodkyt,
I'...<i> 5:54 PM, May 21, 2010<br />TJP said... <br />Geodkyt,<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I honestly do not understand where you are coming from on this one. A snap cap costs less than a box of rifle ammunition. Assuming you own the gun to shoot it...<br /><br />I'm not so sure about cost as an indicator of ability to withstand abuse. I dry fire my Mossberg because I know that North Haven isn't too far away, and they'll be making 500s until the Apocalypse. Dirt cheap gun, but it's holding up. Old Italian double I inherited. Nope.</i><br /><br />1. Exactly where did I say anything about the price of the <b><i>gun</i></b> being a factor? "Crappy" does not mean "cheap". I see a lot of very expensive crap out there.<br /><br />2. So what if the price of the snap cap is less than a box of rifle ammo? In over 20 years, I have had to replace <b>TWO</b> (not counting ones replaced for some expected, and probably imaginary, performance advantage) firing pins in my guns. . . neither of which was broken by dry firing. (One was simply NOT THERE in a gun I picked up inexpensively; even with a new pin it was a good deal. The other was a Baby Browning that Billy Bob the self-taught gunplumber had made a firing pin for, apparantly using a spare nail and a hand drill as a lathe. Billy Bob also whittled some ill fitting grips out of crappy wood stained a weird color.)<br /><br />I HAVE seen firing pins screwed up that needed replacement. Like when PVT Snuffy gets a little too enthusiatstic about using his firing pin as a punch and pry tool. I'm sure if I had an antique shotgun worth $4000, I wouldn't dry fire it without snap caps, either.<br /><br />So, I have been dry firing on a regular basis for over 20 years. I have spent exactly ZERO dollars on fixing damage caused by dry firing. In that same period, I have owned guns in just shy of two dozen distinctive calibers (counting cases that can use the same snap cap size, like .38 Special and .357 Magnum, as a single caliber). I have owned revolvers in six of those calibers.<br /><br />I went to Brownells and started adding up how much having snap caps in all the calibers I would have needed over the years (keeping in mind that you need one for every chamber, and my revolvers have had at least 5 chambers.) Luckily, they tend to sell the "revolver caliber" snap caps in packs of 6. (Sucks if you have a 7 or 8 shot revolver, but you can always just buy TWO packs, right?) Of course, that's more than offset in that they tend to sell NON-"revolver" caliber snap caps in multiple sets as well. . .<br /><br />I gave up when I passed the $200 mark. (I had to estimate some, treating them as the same price as similar rounds, as they don't offer them in all of the calibers I have owned.)<br /><br />Right now I don't own (and have no desire to own) a gun whose firing pin costs more than $200. Even if I drop it off at Goose Hill and pay their gunsmith rates, I wouldn't likely have a gun whose firing pin cost $200 to replace.<br /><br />So, gunsmiths are cheaper than snap caps, <i><b>for me</b></i>.<br /><br />On the other hand, I do need to pick up some more dummy rounds (proper weight and balance, not teh lightweight plastic things.) Those DO serve a useful purpose.Geodkythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09328915597574377444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-14656284488083567752010-05-24T23:05:10.534-04:002010-05-24T23:05:10.534-04:00Hey, arguing on teh internets is, like, my hobby! ...Hey, arguing on teh internets is, like, my <i>hobby</i>! :DTamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-81189689125750993332010-05-24T21:32:22.359-04:002010-05-24T21:32:22.359-04:00I would certainly expect nothing less. :)
(I do h...I would certainly expect nothing less. :)<br /><br />(I do hope you take this whole discussion in the spirit it has been given, and that is to disagree without being disagreeable; you have certainly succeeded on your end and I hope I have been as gracious.)oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-50246102411332069332010-05-24T20:46:24.569-04:002010-05-24T20:46:24.569-04:00Dunno about teh cowboy rifles.
I'm positive a...Dunno about teh cowboy rifles.<br /><br />I'm positive about the pistols, though. Or at least the ones I'd tote.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-49654204244871262152010-05-24T12:08:37.069-04:002010-05-24T12:08:37.069-04:00"FP's and strikers are rarely done this w..."FP's and strikers are rarely done this way, especially these days."<br /><br />Metallurgy having advanced a good deal, this is true; especially of any modern firing pin that will fit under a dime. If it's long, however, it is damnably difficult to harden the whole thing without causing it to warp and change dimensionally. Additionally, any powdered metal part, like the firing pins in all modern leveractions made by marlin and winchester, are hard only on the pin end because of the difficulty in maintaining the impact resistance of those parts when hardened through.oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-72619366205190896822010-05-24T11:40:16.548-04:002010-05-24T11:40:16.548-04:00"The tip of the pin, being harder (generally)..."<i>The tip of the pin, being harder (generally)...</i>"<br /><br />FP's and strikers are rarely done this way, especially these days.Tam (remotely)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-64555053273819825192010-05-24T10:56:38.322-04:002010-05-24T10:56:38.322-04:00"We all read only what we want to read. If th..."We all read only what we want to read. If that doesn't match what you actually typed ... too bad."<br /><br />lol. Quote of my week, thanks!!!<br /><br />"It doesn't hit air, but rather bottoms out against the backside of the breechface (or firing pin block, or fully compressed firing pin spring, as the case may be...)"<br /><br />Actually, no. The body of the firing pin does this; the tip of the firing pin hits nothing. The tip of the pin, being harder (generally) has built in metallurgical stresses that can cause microscopic cracks to form in the martensitic structure of the pin tip. From the Tool and <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=SX_SO_CkiUIC&lpg=SA8-PA17&ots=C5r6Ndf_ng&dq=hardening%20cracks&pg=SA8-PA17#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">manufacturing engineers handbook</a>: "A prolific cause for thumbnail checks in chipping chisels is a soft spot on the bit, a short distance back from the cutting edge". They have a great illustration of this, showing the location of cracks on the chisels. Firing pins are made and hardened in much the same way, and so long as they contact something at the end of their stroke, the soft spot is compressed rather than expanded. No harm, no foul. think of a booger on your finger; it's grasp on your fingertip can appear strong, where flicking and shaking your hand will not dislodge it. Now flick that finger against the edge of your desk; the fact that the mass of your finger (or the firing pin) has been arrested in it's forward motion allows the inertia of the booger (or firing pin tip) to break free of the bond it has to the rest of the pin/your finger. <br /><br />As the book points out, soft spots (indicated by the microscopic cracks)are not necesarily trouble makers, most often they are not. <br /><br />Now go wipe the booger off your desk. ;)oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-965308757719528892010-05-23T16:25:39.817-04:002010-05-23T16:25:39.817-04:00Og: This is the Internet.
We all read only what w...Og: This is the Internet.<br /><br />We all read only what we want to read. If that doesn't match what you actually typed ... too bad.Kristophrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08370888276707569365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-52766381892072936962010-05-23T09:34:36.141-04:002010-05-23T09:34:36.141-04:00Well, I didn't break a firing pin, but after a...Well, I didn't break a firing pin, but after a long while I did break the mainspring on a Nagant 1895 trying to get used to that notorious DA trigger.<br />The replacement cost me about $18. On the plus side I have a really strong trigger finger now.Dave_Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-56313515013508235812010-05-23T08:18:27.348-04:002010-05-23T08:18:27.348-04:00Lewis: I didn't even hint at that. Remotely. H...Lewis: I didn't even hint at that. Remotely. How you arrived at that conclusion, i have no earthly idea. I did say if you want practice pulling the trigger, go to the range. <br /><br />To, you know, SHOOT GUNS.oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-38755211242446523662010-05-22T13:43:42.485-04:002010-05-22T13:43:42.485-04:00I dry fired my Nagant pistol last night.
The nic...I dry fired my Nagant pistol last night. <br /><br />The nice thing about those... I don't think it's physically possible to pull the trigger enough to break the gun before one of two things happens;<br /><br />1 - you end up with popeye forearms<br /><br />2 - you break.<br /><br /><br />If I ever get around to it, I've been considering making a spring-loaded 'surrogate pistol' specifically for this kind of practice, something with a spring and plunger so there's a recoil action. Time is precious these days though...Dr. StrangeGunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349076338197668654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-38207615181760334912010-05-22T11:16:54.944-04:002010-05-22T11:16:54.944-04:00og:
Now that I think on it, I'm surprised Tam...og:<br /><br />Now that I think on it, I'm surprised Tam picked this part of your dry practice post to comment on. The one I found more unusual was the assertion that all dry practice should take place at the range.Hunsdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05188706369004532171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-17509503105952017722010-05-22T09:46:02.532-04:002010-05-22T09:46:02.532-04:00I'm a big fan of dry firing. I'm also, ove...I'm a big fan of dry firing. I'm also, over time, leaning more toward doing it with snap caps than without. One gun (Smith DA Rev) I've had since the early 70's, and dry fired witout caps extensively without issue. However, I've also personally broken 3 Ruger transfer bars when dry firing. My gunsmith said he has replaced several as well. If we can acept that it may eventually hurt the gun, and accept the cost of repair, OK. What has been changing my thoughts on the matter were the Rugers that broke the transfer bars. I carry them in the mountains where the grizzlies live. It occured to me that I didnt want to discover a broken part when I most needed the gun to work. If it's a range toy, no problem. If it's gun you carry for protection, how do you know when a part may actually break? I chose to not dry fire without protection to at least minimize the chance of parts breakage. I also decided to replace the transfer bars in the Rugers and toss the ones that had been dry fired without snap caps. Gas for a drive up into the mountains costs more than a new transfer bar.<br /><br /> As has been said, your guns, your choice.<br /><br /> Just some thoughts on the matter.Malamutenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-74684726791546154942010-05-22T07:57:26.125-04:002010-05-22T07:57:26.125-04:00Caleb: Nobody is suggesting you not dry practice. ...Caleb: Nobody is suggesting you not dry practice. Does anyone actually read anything anymore?oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-28609351202247358252010-05-22T07:36:11.922-04:002010-05-22T07:36:11.922-04:00If the firing pin in my M&P/Glock/625/1911 wer...If the firing pin in my M&P/Glock/625/1911 were to break after 20,000+ dry fires then it's my opinion that the cost of a new part is more than worth the increases in trigger management skill that comes from dry practice.<br /><br />Actually, as a further extension of that line of reasoning I tend to believe that if my guns don't eventually break from mechanical wear and tear, then I'm not shooting them enough. This is different from breaking guns do to neglect and abuse, but rather "I have 50,000 rounds on this Beretta and whoops, there goes the locking block."Calebhttp://gunnuts.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-15240821102853681532010-05-22T00:36:18.983-04:002010-05-22T00:36:18.983-04:00hey, Tam knows more about firearms, and is more ad...hey, Tam knows more about firearms, and is more adept at their use, than any civillian I know. If I were reading this thread, I'd take her advise, not mine.oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-5600450750813056372010-05-21T23:41:50.112-04:002010-05-21T23:41:50.112-04:00My experiences very nearly mirror Tam's, but f...My experiences very nearly mirror Tam's, but for the taking work orders for a gunsmith. <br /><br />My DA centerfire revolvers have all had the sideplates off, and the bearing surfaces look mirror-bright, but not boogered.Matt Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500429239798601210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-38386955495973409232010-05-21T21:52:33.406-04:002010-05-21T21:52:33.406-04:00When the subject of "dry firing/snapping in&q...When the subject of "dry firing/snapping in" comes up, I am reminded of what they found in the schoolbook depository. Three empty cases were found with the Carcano, but what one ballistics expert thought was that one was a previously fired case used for dry practice while the shooter waited. BTW, he may have been the ONLY expert that looked at the evidence, and this was years later.<br /><br />wv: firat... but only twice?Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722792638246578812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-2455306454289434912010-05-21T20:26:23.828-04:002010-05-21T20:26:23.828-04:00Let me be crystal clear on this subject: I am not ...Let me be crystal clear on this subject: I am not talking about "Dryfire" as it relates to function check, clearing, all the uses for which it is put in IDPA, etc. These are all perfectly legitimate reasons to "dryfire". I'm talking specifically about (And I am pretty sure Tam understands this because she illustrated it perfectly) the practice of taking, for instance, a revolver, and letting the hammer drop on an empty chamber as a practice tool, hundreds of thousands of times. As Tam says, she's done it. And with the newer type revolvers, this is a non issue. I will nitpick on one point though, and that is that it is not lack of floating that causes an old smith firing pin to break, but the impact. Seen it happen, pin was floating fine and the gun was spotless. Firing pin business end came right out of the muzzle. <br /><br />If I'm gonna be sitting at home with my old 686, just clicking away, it's gonna have six snap caps in it. I can fire away in absolute surety that my firing pin will not break because of that, anyway. <br /><br />Also: Militaries all over the place train by dry firing i boot camp. There are also armorers in boot camp. For a while, there, every Nth springfield came equipped with a spare firing pin in the cleaning kit hole.<br /><br />http://www.ugca.org/ugca02jan/03spare.jpg<br /><br />I don't know what "N" equals. But it was also non zero. <br /><br />There are very few things one can do to always mitigate the liklihood of a lightning strike. There are many simple, inexpensive things everyone can do to mitigate the liklihood of a firing pin breakage. <br /><br />I'm not trying to 'Convert" anyone. I'm just stating there are I think, very good reasons for my position on this matter and they are not without some involved premeditation. I think others share my feelings. But I don't think this should be a "Fifth rule". <br /><br />Not outside of my house, anyway.oghttp://www.neanderpundit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-47198293474164693792010-05-21T19:31:13.496-04:002010-05-21T19:31:13.496-04:00I have spent hundreds of hours "snapping in&q...I have spent hundreds of hours "snapping in" with M1A/m14, AR15/M16 and various Rem 700 actions. The bolt guns never had a pin replacement but the M1A/M14 got new pins regular as the tail can wear and could cause a slam fire or the outside chance of out of battery disaster. The AR pins were replaced because of damage from pierced primers(entirely my fault, poor choice of primers).blindshooternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-41025273129890335692010-05-21T18:11:38.571-04:002010-05-21T18:11:38.571-04:00I prefer to use snap caps when dry firing.
This i...I prefer to use snap caps when dry firing.<br /><br />This is less a "poor firing pin" issue than I have the caps and this also allows for checking loading ramps and the like.<br /><br /><br />I got the snap caps for range practice (flinch and dud removal), and they're handy for dry fire.<br /><br />That being said I'm not too paranoid about true dry fires.The Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15173903164209256926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-17557364625284116902010-05-21T17:54:41.749-04:002010-05-21T17:54:41.749-04:00Geodkyt,
I'm sorry, but I honestly do not und...Geodkyt,<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I honestly do not understand where you are coming from on this one. A snap cap costs less than a box of rifle ammunition. Assuming you own the gun to shoot it...<br /><br />I'm not so sure about cost as an indicator of ability to withstand abuse. I dry fire my Mossberg because I know that North Haven isn't too far away, and they'll be making 500s until the Apocalypse. Dirt cheap gun, but it's holding up. Old Italian double I inherited. Nope.TJPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-25037823039688919822010-05-21T17:23:17.611-04:002010-05-21T17:23:17.611-04:00It doesn't hit air, but rather bottoms out aga...It doesn't hit air, but rather bottoms out against the backside of the breechface (or firing pin block, or fully compressed firing pin spring, as the case may be...)Tamhttp://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15907727.post-53951582278747546772010-05-21T17:11:17.732-04:002010-05-21T17:11:17.732-04:00Can someone clarify why letting the firing pin hit...Can someone clarify why letting the firing pin hit air would cause it to break, when letting it hit a snap cap wouldn't? <br /><br />I would think that if anything, the wear from striking the snap cap would be more.Jumpthestackhttp://jumpthestack.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com