About 200 people in the United States kill someone each year in self-defense.Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those were in the 15-18 age bracket and received their "gun-related injury" when they shorted a client on a dime bag?
But how many die each year -- innocently -- from guns?
Let me tell you.
In the 10 years ending in 2006, 486 children under age 18 in North Carolina, alone, died from gun-related injuries.
The article had one other thing that just baffled me:
In our house, we'll remain unarmed.Since when is that a binary? How is remaining defenseless going to ensure nobody winds up dead? What faulty logic makes you think you are incapable of safely storing a handgun?
Defenseless is better than discovering someone we love dead.
(H/T to the pistolero.)
Neil Schulman
ReplyDeleteIn his book "Stopping Power" stated from his research the number is more like 3000 self defense, killings.
It seems that the FBI puts it on the UCR from the 1st report filed & if it is changed later the FBI does not ammend the UCR
http://www.amazon.com/Stopping-Power-Million-Americans-Guns/dp/1584450576
ReplyDeleteI have to wonder how many of those 486 "children" are the ones being shot out of the 200?
ReplyDeleteWhat's pathetic is how many people will swallow those statistics and never question or think about them.
What about self-defense where no one dies, which is the clear majority cases to the tune of between 700k and 2M. I guess we just count bodies.
ReplyDelete-SayUncle
Admit the truth, at least- there are probably as many people killed in gun accidents as in self defense shootings. But that's a meaningless statistic. Far more people are killed in car "accidents" than are killed by cars in self defense, will you sell that Volvo?
ReplyDeleteTam's point is the real one, it is not binary. Whether you have a gun in the house or not is irrelevant to who dies, as is whether you have a car in the garage. The relevant question is, do you plan to learn to USE the tool CORRECTLY, or will you be stupid?
Tam's last told tale is an example of how having self defense guns CAN lead to dangerous situations. Her discernment was confused, no doubt. I've been in exactly the same situation, living in a house with other people. Good thing no one chose exactly the right moment to stumble through the wrong door.
There's no "safe alternative".
But there is choice. And if this author chooses to be unarmed, it's America. I wish she'd stop trying to take MY choice away.
"Tam's last told tale is an example of how having self defense guns CAN lead to dangerous situations. Her discernment was confused, no doubt. I've been in exactly the same situation, living in a house with other people. Good thing no one chose exactly the right moment to stumble through the wrong door."
ReplyDelete...and don't think I haven't agonized over that. I really believe, however, that if someone had actually been standing there, my next act would have been to scream (or, based on past experience, try to scream) "STOP!"
Here's the breakdown nationally for 2004
ReplyDeleteUnited States Firearm Deaths and Rates/100,000; All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 18
Age/Deaths/Population/CrudeRate
12 / 28 / 4,229,227 / 0.66
13 / 68 / 4,297,151 / 1.58
14 / 115 / 4,374,117 / 2.63
15 / 207 / 4,209,535 / 4.92
16 / 333 / 4,143,443 / 8.04
17 / 487 / 4,099,068 / 11.88
18 / 660 / 4,122,868 / 16.01
You can look it up here yourself...
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
What are the chances that carjacking, gang banging, independent unlicensed pharmaceuticals distribution, and other assorted jackassery rates pick up sharply about age 16 as well?
ReplyDeleteThe fallacy here is in arguing facts and reality. They have nothing to do with this.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about facts, it's about religion.
By that, I mean at least one party to the argument is basing their side on beliefs they accept because they want to, DESPITE reality. That's another way of saying religion.
The anti civil rights, anti-gun crowd have an agenda that matches their 'beliefs', and has little or no basis in reality. That's why they are totally unswayed by facts, no matter how much they themselves twist statistics to their own ends.
Facts are irrelevant to them excepting as they are a means to an end, THEIR end.
If you want to sway an anti-rights drone facts based in reality will be of no use. They don't think like that, nor do they care.
The only way to approach that kind of person is on an entirely emotional level, forcing them to see and own the harm they are doing.
With a true believer, there is no hope at all. They will believe what they want to based on faith alone, without regard to reality.
The only way to deal with a true believer is to steal away the supporting drones, till he's isolated, marginalized, and harmless.
I felt compelled to write to her:
ReplyDeleteDannye,
In your article (1 less gun for grandkids to worry about, July 31, 2007), you wrote “Defenseless is better than discovering someone we love dead.” How can you know that? Are you saying that being defenseless will guarantee that no one will die? Doesn’t having responsibility part of owning a gun? For that matter, doesn’t having responsibility part of having kids? Do you not teach your kids (in this case, granddaughter) not to play with knives, matches, electrical outlets, etc? Do you not take precautions so they can’t play with those items? What’s the difference between taking precautions with those items than with guns?
Being defenseless will only guarantee that you will not have the best means to fight back against intruders who might have intent to do harm or to kill you. It will guarantee that the intruder will be able to have their way with you and your precious granddaughter.
Also, the numbers you mentioned (486 children under the age of 18 over 10 years in NC), how many of those do you think were 15-18 in the process of some crime, gang bangers, or drug deals gone bad? I think the age breakdown, nationally, is listed somewhere on the CDC website.
You are entitled to your opinion, but please also consider the alternative and the real statistics of “accidental” deaths by firearms.
Thanks for your time,
I live in Charlotte, the lovely Queen City, so I feel like I have to say a few words.
ReplyDeleteI will mention for all interested parties that the original article in last Sunday's Observer was worth reading, the one about 4 different individuals who killed in self defense. But it did have a bit of a slant to it of course. That's what got this one rolling.
Also for interest's sake, I will mention that there have been 6 shootings here in Charlotte since Friday the 27th. 6 reported shootings anyway, and only one of those was in self defense. A female clerk at a convenience store shot a would-be robber in self defense. The rest of those shootings were typical Charlotte summer night time fun plus a couple more shootings over the weekend in Monroe, the pissant little burg just down the road. Personally, I hope I never have to use one of my weapons to stop anyone, but I am glad to have my .45 in my night stand just in case.
Also for matters of interest, there was a shooting here in Charlotte involving a teen in the age range mentioned a couple of weeks ago. The investigation is still ongoing, leaning back and forth between suicide, homicide, and sheer stupidity. The weapon involved was a 12 gauge pump sold to the teen by another teen aquaintance on the street for $25. This information came from the teen's same aged friend who was witness to the sale and shooting. Now, I'm sorry that this happened, but, in all honesty, I would rather that the teen die by that weapon rather than whoever he might have been planning to use it on or whatever poor bastard might have gotten caught in the crossfire during whatever crime he had been planning to commit with it.
By the way, Charlotte's a really fun place. And it just keeps getting worse. At least CMPD, supplemented by the SWATs, managed to keep our 4th of July celebration uptown under control this year, unlike the last several.
How many of those 486 "gun related deaths" are suicides? Many studies have shown that when guns are unavailable suicidal teens simply look to other alternatives like tall buildings or fast car wrecks.
ReplyDeleteHuh. Small world. I e-mailed the author of that opinion piece myself...
ReplyDelete" Education (the 'four rules') is a much better approach than ignorance to the problem of children mis-handling guns.
Sort of like driving a car - would you prefer your grandchildren were kept completely ignorant of how to safely handle a car until they turned 18 and bought one for themselves?
Also, please re-check your source on child/gun accidents. Very clear federal statistics show that a child is much more likely to drown in a backyard pool, or die through poison ingestion, than through a gun accident. It would be a pretty big shocker if (according to the statistics) North Carolina had 5000 children drowning in backyard pools over the last ten years. I will say that if your source for those numbers was the Brady Campaign or the Violence Policy Center (or their spinoffs) then the data are very suspect.
Please reflect for a moment on the recent sickening tragedy in Connecticutt. Had any of them been armed, had there been a firearm available in their home, the mans' wife and two daughters would most probably be alive now, instead of raped and murdered. The husband was able to escape, but lacking any means of defense from 2 men with baseball bats, he could only run to a neighbor and call 9-11. I believe I would have rather died fighting than be in that poor mans' shoes right now.
So please, reconsider education versus ignorance, and the safety of your grandchildren."
In general, per the Center for Disease Control, the number of accidental deaths per year for children age 14 and under is around 100. Total accidental is around 1,000 per year.
ReplyDeleteOf all deaths where firearms are involved, approximately one-half are suicides. In the last fifty years I've seen no commentary from the Psychology community (my mother's career field) to gainsay the conclusion that if one method isn't available or else does not work, another method won't be used.
I have read that accidental killings of the "innocent bystander" (Is there such a thing as a "guilty bystander"?) are more likely to come from police than the ordinary citizen. Allegedly, 30:1. This refers to legitimate fire in self-defense situations.
All other firearms homicides are wilful, and no gun control law has ever affected the rate. (Wright, Rossi & Daly, "Under the Gun"; my extrapolation from their Florida data.)
Art
I always get a chuckle from phrases like "drug deal gone bad".
ReplyDeleteBecause until a gun comes out, those drug deals and burglaries are all just right as rain, aren't they?
I have always wondered what the percentage of people who are shot by firearms are drug and alchohol related. I mean, I hear about break-ins where people are shot, people shot sitting outside, etc. I kinda doubt all of these are random.
ReplyDeleteWhat faulty logic makes you think you are incapable of safely storing a handgun?
ReplyDeleteProbably the same faulty logic that makes her think that if the parents of her childhood friend weren't diligent enough to teach her gun safety, the best thing that could be done by any parent or guardian is to keep kids away from guns. I honestly don't see why this person or her husband didn't think of trying to teach her granddaughters about gun safety. It could have been a beautiful bonding experience.
Dear God in Heaven above.
ReplyDeletePeople like this scare me--they believe that if only _they_ could rid the(ir) world of all guns, then everything would be flowers and fluffy bunnies.
Point to the recent tragedy in Connecticut and they have no response.
Luby's Cafeteria, in Kileen, TX?
No response.
Virginia Tech?
No response.
They don't care how many decent people die.
I'm sorry to say it, but they're evil.
I grew up with guns in the house. My Dad was very careful to make sure all three of us kids knew they were not toys and not to be handled. By the time I was 8 I knew how to load, fire and unload every firearm Dad owned except his Colt 1911. I wasn't strong enough to chamber a round with it until I was 10+.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately Dad wasn't very good at training Mom.
Dad was pheasant hunting one weekend when I was 9. (I had a cold and wasn't allowed to go along.) Mom being nervous about being home alone, got out Dads 38 revolver, loaded it and left it on her nightstand.
The next morning when she discovered that she was out of milk, she ran to the store quickly to get some - leaving the loaded gun on the nightstand and three sleeping children (9, 7 and 6) in the house.
Mom came home to find the three of us watching cartoons on TV and the gun missing.
After frantically tearing her room apart she finally got desperate enough to ask us kids if we had seen the gun. We told her that my oldest sister and I were worried about the gun being left out with our youngest sister around because she tended to do stupid things. So I had unloaded the gun. Then I gave the bullets to my sister to hide while I hid the gun.
We refused to tell Mom where we had hidden them until Dad came home that afternoon. At which time Dad had a very heated conversation with Mom, then hugged my sister and I and thanked us for watching out for our youngest sister, then beat both our butts for handling the 38 without an adult in the room.
Five years and several other bone headed firearms errors by Mom later, Dad had to leave town again for several days. This time he left the Colt and the 38 with me with instructions not to let my mother near them. Then he told Mom, if someone breaks in, yell loud enough to wake your son up.
My point is, there are some people in this world who just should never be allowed to handle or own firearms. My mother was raised in a house with firearms in it. She started hunting with her Dad and younger brothers when she was 15. Yet her total and complete inability to safely handle a weapon absolutely terrified everyone around her every time she got near a firearm.
So if this woman doesn't want a gun in her house - good. She would probably be a danger to those around her with it. But that doesn't mean she should waste her time trying to stop me from having one.
And more importantly, if she does get into trouble someday, she shouldn't expect to just yell for help and expect me or some other gun owner to come defend her. If she choses to be defenseless then she also choses to be a victim.