Why is it that when Democrats get in a position where they have the power to enact whatever they can, they choose to pass laws that will assuredly get most of their asses tossed out of office? It's like watching lemmings run for the cliff, but instead of peacefully diving off the cliff to their fate, they burn your house down on the way.
I'm not buying it if I don't want it (currently have healthcare so I have no pony in the "mandatory healthcare" race - yet). If I decide I don't want healthcare and don't buy it, I *will not* pay their fine. God help anyone who'd take me to jail for not buying something I don't want because *they* are gonna need healthcare. Mandatory healthcare will inaugurate a blood letting this country hasn't seen since the War of Northern Aggression, and folks will resist - and I will help those innocent folks in their struggle for Liberty! ”If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
"Mandatory healthcare will inaugurate a blood letting this country hasn't seen since the War of Northern Aggression, and folks will resist"
Yeah, Chewie, just like mandatory auto insurance caused blood in the streets?
Besides if you mean the War of Southern Treason, I think the natural rights involved in slavery during that war hardly compare to a policy dispute here.
Going to get us some? The Dems in the House are running for cover, even Stupak gave a big ol' gunstore "No!" yesterday.
November is coming. You kids stay in the car and read comics, and keep your hands off your sister's side, and the adults/Republicans will come and fix this.
Treason? I'd vote for secession in a heartbeat if they make healthcare mandatory. Speaking of natural rights, it's quite unnatural to require someone to get something they don't want. Again, sir, "Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you *and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.*"
Dunno why, but this news blip seemed related to the discussion, here.
"Shark-filled aquarium in Dubai mall springs leak (AP)"
``````````````````````````` RE: health care: REMOVE most of the middle management positions, and disband corporate headquarters entirely, especially in hospitals -- instead of taxing THE PUBLIC.
All the useless surplus health care money anyone could ever want, is being wasted daily, in suit-wearing, paper-shuffling, mutual butt-stroking, catered lunch 'executive' meetings and offices. Hospitals are are a money-mine, flying the Jolly Roger of Non-profit.
That's not even counting the Insurance Company administrations, who apparently use Dickensian England as a Manual for Allowed Care choices.
The health industry is the home vector pool for useless MBA-incompetents that couldn't hack it in the for profit fields. But give'em the power to make life or death decisions and they just know they are nearly God, if not actually God.
The trubbles dey has,iz the trubbles dey brought upon themselves.
Since the early to mid 1970, when 'business administrators' were brought into the hands-on end of medicine, the resultant administrative atherosclerosis has been accumulating.
Partly, it is a result of the fat Government money they could bill and receive over the past decades. Once the 'Healthers' could suck on the tax-teat, mere competence and the ability to run a business on a sound footing went down the flusher. The Great Society has been SUCH a success, eh?
And NOW, we should ask for more of that steaming dish of shit gruel? With a Federal Seasoning?
Seriously: For all the talk about "armed insurrection" this and "blood in the streets" that, how many of the people making noise about it are actually willing to *start* the violence?
My guess? <0.001%
Take a lesson from Les Miz, too: All the barricades in the world won't do you any good if the rest of the population just rolls their eyes and goes about their business.
They're letting adults into the GOP now? When'd they start that? Yay! More Medicare and government control of education!
I know you love Mitt and Newt and Mike Huckabee, but you can tell us what really happened. We don't believe you "walked into a door". They hit you, didn't they?
I'm not talking about "insurrection", rather I'm talking about defending myself, my neighbors, and my State against criminals who, in Mob-like fashion, come around making offers we can't refuse. Until people en mass start to think the same way, nothing will change.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." --Mark Twain
Obama fumbled the ball in New Jersey, Virginia, Massachusetts, the Olympics, the Global Warming Conference, inter alia and yet people are out of their minds with this stage production?
People rolled their eyes @ the American Colonists in the 18th century when we seceded from Britain.
As our own Declaration of Independence says, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
I'm not talking about "insurrection", rather I'm talking about defending myself, my neighbors, and my State against criminals who, in Mob-like fashion, come around making offers we can't refuse. Until people en mass start to think the same way, nothing will change.
That's what I meant. Defending yourself from what, exactly? Are you proposing we take up arms against a sea of suit-and-tie bureaucrats? You can't fistfight an idea. The best you can do is stand your ground and wait for them to start shooting. Otherwise you're no better than the idiot with the airplane in Texas: "They're not treating me the way I want to be treated, so I'm going to blow 'em up!" Nobody's going to side with that. It's not about whether to take up arms; it's about when and why -- in other words, exhaust ALL other options first.
The best you can do is stand your ground and wait for them to start shooting.
That's precisely what I mean.
Literally, I will stand my ground. I won't go to jail like a good little slave for not paying a fine as a result of not buying a service I don't want. In addition, I am also saying that if *any* of my neighbors/friends/family decides to do the same, it is my obligation to help the innocent defend themselves against criminals.
I'm not talking about anything like that poor guy in Texas did who was pushed over the edge and flew a plane into a building - that was wrong. I'm just gonna sit at home, and wait, hoping trouble doesn't come my way, but getting ready in case it does.
I won't go to jail like a good little slave for not paying a fine as a result of not buying a service I don't want.
I think that's where we differ. I don't see going to jail as being "a good little slave". Quite the contrary: It's the consequence of standing my ground. Meekness is not weakness; it's standing up under ill and unjust treatment because I know I'm right, and I don't have to prove it to anyone. There's more than one line in the sand, in other words: The line where I stop cooperating and the line where I start shooting. The latter is much, much, much further back than the former.
I had this conversation last weekend, even the secession bit. Regarding healthcare, I've had socialized medical care twice, in the military (still the most successful socialist entity in history!) and my family used the Belgian medical system for four years, even spawned a kid there. Great system, worked really well. Doctors made house calls even. So I have no problem with health care being provided for citizens as a concept. I just don't think that our government can set up a system that would function with any sort of efficiency, and certainly not better than what I have now.
When I look at the healthcare "debate" it reminds me of the WWF wrestling. In front of the crowd they are wrestling, taunting each other and fighting. As soon as the crowd isn't looking they are having a beer and laughing at the dullards who spent money to watch the show.
What theater! The side responsible for the current "system" is the one demonizing it, and the other side is defending the distorted, heavily tax-subsidized system as the "best in the world".
None of it has a thing to do with "health care", which has historically and is currently provided primarily by individuals and their doctors and nurses.
I unfortunately am not afflicted with the hubris to think that I could re-chart the course of an enormous and complicated market segment, based solely on superficial knowledge, so I guess I have no solution to offer.
p.s. I predict mob r^H^H^H^Hdemocracy will get its ass kicked by economics. But hey, economics always wins.
SB, you do get your blue suit on when you feel your Yanks have been slighted, eh? It does give your usually reasoned and authoritative commentary an air of the schoolyard, every time.
Plus, the 'Pubs are all about red, remember? Take another look at that Us and Dem map and tell me where all the red is. For someone so defensive of Northern failures, you sure are quick to hitch your wagon to the Southern 'Pubs that have, temporarily at least, resuscitated that dead elephant.
And you liken what is proposed, the .gov coup and dismantling of what is still the best health care system in the world, to car insurance? That's a pretty poor example considering how many uninsured motorists there are running around, and the effects of that for all of us who actually have and pay for coverage.
Yeah, let's carry that success right into the middle of the single largest budget/deficit item facing us, with the capacity to take from us both our wealth and our health. Talk about an "elephant" in the room!
Of course literal bloodletting is unlikely (except maybe in some of those .gov hospitals), and this idiocy has to be defeated before it begins. But I wouldn't look to the 'Pubs for the solution; they are as responsible for the current morass as anybody.
This "tea party" thing has some actual possibilities as a viable third party...let's call it the "T-Party". There are people calling themselves Democrats and Republicans rubbing elbows with libertarians, independents, the unaligned and the simply disenfranchised who are shutting up for once, listening to what the people are saying, and acknowledging that a new party with any chance of survival needs not "leaders", but managers and implementers to try to undo the damage of the past two decades and get us back on track as a nation of free, self-sustaining individuals.
I truly expect that there will be a lot of incumbents and usual suspects who are in for a rude awakening in the next two rounds of elections. We can hope and dream, can't we?
When I look at the healthcare "debate" it reminds me of the WWF wrestling. In front of the crowd they are wrestling, taunting each other and fighting. As soon as the crowd isn't looking they are having a beer and laughing at the dullards who spent money to watch the show.
Jay T, you've been watching "The Obama Deception", huh? :D Great movie!
"Take another look at that Us and Dem map and tell me where all the red is."
Massachusetts. Who brought the 'Rups back to life there . . . Gov. Cornpone maybe?
"And you liken what is proposed, the .gov coup and dismantling of what is still the best health care system in the world, to car insurance?"
No, I liken the empty bongwater-drinking rhetoric of Wookies and the Sons of Treason Lost Causers and their talk of revolution to the mass violence that transpired after mandatory auto insurance was instituted.
Health insurance reform is a disaster, but the Republicans are going to stop it. The whiners can go read their comic books about Wookies in Space, just hand me the tire iron when I call for it.
The ignorance of Mr/Ms/Mrs Anonymous is pathetic. You really think the Republicans will fix anything? Both parties are bought and paid for by the same lobbyists and special interests. Remember Medicare Pt. 5 was a G. W. Bush initiative.
Continuing the stunning example of utterly pathetic ignorance is your belief that Southers are traitors. We seceded in peace, and were attacked. Slavery was on the way out, and you're obviously ignorant of that era's history. Did you know that both Lee and Jackson were both known for their hatred of slavery? Did you know that those two and Fredrick Douglas both openly admired John Brown? Did you know Mr. Brown was a southerner? You even know who he is???!! Besides, you can't say secession is treasonous until you admit the USA is full of traitors to the Crown of England - we seceded from them if you recall. It is "self-evident" that "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." But you likely don't even know where that quote came from.
I guess, if they fine you and make you pay it through taxes, you could fly a small airplane into an IRS office. Of course, nobody would do something like that to protest the government, when people say stuff like that they're just talking out their asses.
"The ignorance of Mr/Ms/Mrs Anonymous is pathetic. You really think the Republicans will fix anything?"
Unlike some who want something for nothing and want things "fixed", I think the Republicans will stop health care reform.
They beat Obama today like a drum.
"Southers are traitors. We seceded in peace, and were attacked."
Right, because Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush flew into South Cackalacky in a Blackwater helicopter and fired on the fort.
The South started the war to preserve slavery. The South got its teeth handed to it by Republicans.
Republicans stopped slavery. Republicans will stop socialism (half way there, the USSR is on the ash heap of history along with Nazi Germany and the CSA).
The South did not start a war over slavery. That's a canard.
However, since the subject is healthcare it's important to note that no matter where we reside, under Obama, we are royally screwed with this Leviathan of a bill.
How do you refuse to pay for gummint health care when they take it out of your paycheck before you ever paid? Very few people have jobs that pay under the table.
"How do you refuse to pay for gummint health care when they take it out of your paycheck before you ever paid? Very few people have jobs that pay under the table."
It's called going Galt, and more folks are taking to it by the day.
Look for it to ramp up if this latest round of pissing-on-my-leg-and-tell-me-it's-raining gets any traction.
I know it's the principle of the thing and all that but we're talking what, $5 - $10 a day max, for "just go to the doc" health insurance? That's a pack of smokes and a big mac! Wait, maybe I should find a better comparison.
D3vnull, I applaud your gut feelings, but I thing Joanna has it nailed. If a million guys do it, it's a civil war. If three guys do it, they get whacked as nutters.
I agree that slavery wasn't a real cause of the civil war, only a propaganda lever the North used to keep the newly enfranchised British working class hostile to Britain's entry to the war on the side of the south.
The Emancipation Proclamation only "freed" slaves behind Confederate lines. Slaves in the Union (like the ones owned by General Grant in Missouri) had to wait for the end of the war and government reimbursment for their owners.
Parenthetically, Grant wrote "If I thought for a moment this war was being fought to end slavery, I would resign my commision and offer my sword to the Confederacy".
The war was primarily started by the government's supporting itself on export taxes, predominantly on cotton and tobacco. Everyone in the U.S. outside of the South got a free ride on the backs of the Southern exporters.
The shift to the far more efficient sharecropping system was delayed by the financially strapped growers needing the value of their slaves as collateral for ever more loans to keep them afloat in a decaying economy.
Virginia stayed neutral until Union forces crossed it under arms, confiscating what they wanted as they went. That, more than anything else, is what caused Robert E. Lee to resign his commission, spurn Lincoln's offer to command the U.S. army, and join the Rebels.
How long would the Civil War have lasted with Virginia in the Union, and the Northern armies commanded by Lee?
But I still have to back Shootin' Buddy on the Republicans. A third of them always were conservatives, and the Contract With America crowd had a lot on the ball.
It fell apart with Gingrich's departure and the departure of the self term-limited people who came into office in the mid-90's.
The majority of the Republicans then morphed into tax and spend Republicrats, differing from the Democrats in firearms legislation and support for the military, but not much else.
But in our society, third parties are a disaster. Clinton won with 42% of the vote because of Perot, and Socialists always vote Democrat. And I'm not ready to start shooting, because I'll get shot too, and it won't mean a damn thing.
The Tea Party folks have made a much bigger dent than I thought they would or could. They can have some real effect of the Republicans, but can never have any effect on the Democrats.
So a Republican party swung right to get a chance at victory is a hell of a lot better than a conservative third party that splits our vote and allows the sociopaths of the Pelosi/Reed/Barry The Weasel type to win in a walk.
The state nullification thing is interesting too. It fits in nicely with the Tea Party effort, and brings in a lot of Independents.
I thought the people who said split with the Republicans and let the Democrats show themselves for what they really are were wrong, and voted for McCain as the lesser of two evils.
I was wrong, and they were right. McCain would have rolled over for most of what the Democrats have been pushing, and we would be worse of now than we are.
The people running the Democratic party aren't just wrong, they're stupid. It's becoming obvious, and it's brining independents over to the conservative side. A newly (albeit moderately) conservative Republican party is arising from the ashes, and it can win.
Voting third party or sitting home and talking violence just solidifies the left's hold on us.
I like the idea of secession too, but not for us. Offer it to the big coastal cities. Start with San Francisco and all the others would be jumping for it too.
Have you called Gov. Cornpone's office to find out what color the Huckabee '12 stickers are going to be? I figure you can get a head start and pick a truck in a color that won't clash.
Your arguments would be more persuasive if they weren't entirely based on ad hominem nonsense. How come you never respond to the questions about those awful pieces of Democrat legislation like Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind? Every time somebody mentions actual issues, you just rehash the same old "bong water" and "wookie suit" jokes.
Where's the incentive for the party to change if you're going to reward them with your vote no matter what they do?
Treason? Treason like during the Indianapolis treason trials treason? Treason like during what the New York Journal of Commerce called "the present unholy war" (and that was before Lincoln authorized the starvation and artillery bombardment of women and children in his "Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field" Number 100, 1863)? Oh, absolutely. Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus and USA civilians (note: I said USA, not CSA) were tried and convicted before military commissions; Freedom of the press was abridged (over 300 Northern newspapers were suppressed for having the audacity to speak against Saint Lincoln...the above New York Journal of Commerce was driven out of business, as were others); a Central Confederacy received serious support from many in the states of New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio (there were others) due to the Federal government's abuse of the Constitution (small government? what's that?) even before the war started; clergy were rounded up and detained for perceived Southern sympathies; New York City was placed under military occupation; and over 20,000 political prisoners were held without so much as legal counsel, to name but a scant few things (check out all the acts that were passed during the war. most weren't remotely constitutional). To quote Lincoln's secretary of war, traitors were found "in the Senate, in the House of Representatives, in the Cabinet, in the Federal Courts...Treason was flagrant in the revenue and in the post-office service, as well as in the Territorial governments and in the judicial reserves." Treason indeed, Secretary Stanton, you paranoid, treasonous bastard. Another quote, from Northern abolitionist Wendell Phillips, "We live today, every one of us, under martial law. The Secretary of State puts into his Bastille, with a warrant as irresponsible as that of Louis XIV, any man whom he pleases."
Ahhh...quotes are fun. How about a quote from Edward Bates, Lincoln's attorney general? "The demoralizing effect of this civil war is plainly visible in every department of life. The abuse of official powers and thirst for dishonest gain are now so common that they cease to shock."
Hell, Marx and Engels praised the guy and based some of their works off of Lincoln's. How can Americans blindly defend a Commie idol?
Also, can anyone explain how the Southerners were "treasonous"? To quote Lincoln himself in a speech before Congress in regards to the Mexican-American War, "Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."
Treasonous Southerners? Not by Lincoln's own words. Ludwell H. Johnson put a bow on it when he said in 'The Plundering Generation', by Mark W. Summers, "Manufacturers feared the loss of American markets to a flood of cheap British goods pouring through a free-trade Confederacy; Northern shippers feared the loss of their monopoly of the coasting trade and their share of the trans-Atlantic carrying trade; merchants feared the loss of the profits they garnered as middlemen between the South and Europe; creditors feared the loss of Southern debts; the Old Northwest feared the loss or curtailment of the Mississippi trade; the Republicans feared the disintegration of their party should it let the South go and bring upon the North all of the consequences just mentioned."
"How come you never respond to the questions about those awful pieces of Democrat legislation like Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind?"
Ummm, because they aren't the point of the post to comment on just whining about how the Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough, in the rain, while everyone else sits in the car and reads science fiction comics and complains about how Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough.
"Every time somebody mentions actual issues, you just rehash the same old "bong water" and "wookie suit" jokes."
Not jokes, obersvations about the empty Libertarian threats of violence/insurrection/I'm-not-coming-out-of-my-room-hold-my-breath-if-I-don't-get-my-way.
"Also, can anyone explain how the Southerners were "treasonous"?"
Because when you levy war on your country you commit Treason and you deserve to swing. As I learned it so many years ago: 1. adherence to the enemy, 2. rendering him aid and comfort.
The war wasn't about slavery and white supremacy? Not if you believe the Lost Causers and the revisionists, but the CSA was up front about their war aims--preserving slavery. Heck, it's even hanging up in Southern state museums.
Point is, Southern Treason did not work out too well for y'all the first time and babbling about violence in the streets won't help you with health care reform.
I'm certainly not in a bad mood. Also in the Economics-Always-Wins category: the Democrats' ridiculous spending spree during a recession has done more to make state-run education accountable than NCLB could ever manage. People are low on cash and sick of automatic union pay raises, so there is crushing scrutiny of how taxes are being spent. Thanks again, President Obama!
"Ummm, because they aren't the point of the post to comment on just whining about how the Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough..."
'Not fixing' is one thing, actively slashing the tires is another matter altogether. That is the point that you have steadfastly refused to address in plenty of posts before this one.
Go 'head, here's your chance to tell us how you got that black eye by running into a door: Spin me a yarn about the blows for liberty struck by the adults in the GOP in the Medicare Part D and NCLB fiascos. I'm seriously curious.
Whatever the outcome of this 'Healthcare' theater they had today, the fact remains that come next fall Republicans can't win big without the help and endorsements of the most conservative members of our VOTING society.
The Democrats, however, can retain their plurality without the help of their most liberal members of our political spectrum. They really don't need them.
So, the question remains will the Republicans sincerely move their political positions to those that Conservatives demand or we will get the usual heave-ho once they think they've got the votes they need to resume power?
We have been bitten so many times by this dog I don't trust the lot of them (on either side)...
"Because when you levy war on your country you commit Treason and you deserve to swing."
Yet again: "Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."
By Lincoln's own words the Confederacy was its own country. Later, as president, he didn't want the competition because he new good and well who Europe would favor.
And I guess all the Founding Fathers deserved to swing, eh?
"The war wasn't about slavery and white supremacy?"
Lincoln again: "I will say then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way, the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor have I ever been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, or having them to marry with white people...there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man."
You, Shootin' Buddy, are a blithering idiot and a bigot. End of discussion.
TJP said... "...the Democrats' ridiculous spending spree during a recession..."
Not so funny thing about that...if you take the government's spending that's been directly aimed at "stopping the bleeding" out of the equation, the economic contraction is at 10%. That qualifies it for a depression.
Have I mentioned that the commercial real estate market hasn't really started its true fall yet? Or that most of the bad home mortgages are still off the books and festering for the banks? Or that Europe is spectacularly far up the creek? (Greece? Hell, everyone thought Spain would go first...)
In other words, you can argue all day long about who was right and who was wrong, but it won't change the reality of who won and who lost. And I really don't give two hoots about northern aggression or white supremacy or what have you; the point is that it happened, it's over and the sooner we all adjust to that fact the sooner we can get some real work done around here.
And for the record, I have a so-many-greats uncle who was in Andersonville; he spent the rest of his life in the asylum. So it's not like I don't have a stake in this. I just have more of a stake in getting shit done instead of arguing over who spit in whose milk first.
Joanna, these guys aren't talking about the last civil war, they're talking about the next one.
SB's blathering is fear; fear that there will be a secession or split of some kind, along some lines, in the near future. And if you think the economic engine of the country was in the South in the 1850's, just consider the situation today.
Forced unity is always a pursuit of assets...follow the money. And then as now racism is a calculated diversion.
these guys aren't talking about the last civil war, they're talking about the next one.
Again: Shit happens. I've got a big enough pile of it to deal with now without adding a bunch of hypotheticals to the mix. Quit talking; get stuff done; rinse; repeat. Nobody benefits from this kind of argument in the end.
Oh. This sure reads like you're talking about history:
"...you can argue all day long about who was right and who was wrong, but it won't change the reality of who won and who lost...it happened, it's over and the sooner we all adjust to that fact the sooner we can get some real work done around here..."
The future is coming and it's not hypothetical; there is huge benefit in learning from history so as not to repeat it. And doing "stuff" without openly discussing differences is how "shit" happens, and how we all ended up with such a giant stinking pile of it.
What "real work" and "stuff" do you advocate needs doing so urgently?
What "real work" and "stuff" do you advocate needs doing so urgently?
My life. I find that keeping my apartment clean and paying my debts on time is a better use of my energy than freaking out about the next big War of Mom He's Touching Me Again. (And before you ask: The only reason I've been in this thread so long is because I've been off work all week and I'm laid up with a bum ankle.)
That's not to say I don't think about the future and what might happen. I do. Quite a lot, actually. But if there's one thing I know it's that revolution should only ever be an absolute last resort. It's exciting to talk about taking down the system and fighting the man, but let's face it: It's just talk. Will I do everything in my power to counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions? You're damn right I will. But there won't be another Concorde or Lexington, and I think it would be foolish to force the issue.
In other words, I choose to focus most of my attention on nearer things. I can actually make an immediate difference there. The government and the country will go on with or without me. My life, obligations and relationships won't.
So in other words you decided to be a wet blanket because you don't like the discussion about things that you see as not impacting your daily life? Actual question, as I'm a bit confused as to your grounds for playing den mother. You certainly have the right to your opinion, but isn't that what everyone else is indulging as well? You're not a Van Pelt, by any chance?
"Will I do everything in my power to counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions? You're damn right I will."
I ask again, what have you done? You keep making these blustery statements like a pudgy 50 year old white guy in a shoot me first vest yet somehow I doubt you've done "everything" in your power to "counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions", or much of anything at all...unless you consider crabassing about it online to be the extent of your powers. Further, your last paragraph directly contradicts your claims of doing everything in your power to "counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions".
You could call me a Van Pelt, I suppose -- I have a low tolerance for nonsense, and I'm generally not afraid to say so. :-)
What have I done? I've marched on fucking Washington, that's what I've done. Other than that, I stay as informed as possible and I share what I learn -- with the resources currently at my disposal, that's about the extent of my options. And about my last paragraph -- the single most American thing I can do right now is become as self-sufficient as possible. I can't bring down bad laws or destroy corrupt ideas; the only way I can fight them is to make sure they have no place in my life. So that's what I do. Just because I'm not ministering to tribes in Africa doesn't mean I'm not doing the Lord's work, as it were.
And for the record, I'm a svelte 26-year-old female. I don't own a vest. :-)
"In other words, I choose to focus most of my attention on nearer things. I can actually make an immediate difference there. The government and the country will go on with or without me. My life, obligations and relationships won't."
That's a pretty good mini-manifesto for the modern libertarian. My son is your age and shares your attitude of self reliance and personal responsibility; it heartens me that there are many young people that have resisted being bought by the nanny state.
But so many are blinded by the light that while you're over there minding your own business, that government that "will go on without" you is busy co-opting all of that self-determination right out from under you. Discussing and countering that trend demands at least some of our attention while we keep on keepin' on with our own lives, and that's just what we're doing right here.
Hope your ankle is better, but that getting back your ambulatory won't keep you from making yourself heard.
Boo hoo hoo, Lincoln didn't like Black people either so Treason to preserve slavery is just fine. Lincoln did not levy war on his country; the South did. Southern motives were to preserve slavery and white supremacy.
General Early is very proud that his efforts of shifting focus away from slavery and onto some other cause are being rewarded today.
Health care reform is far removed from slavery which caused the War of Southern Treason. There will be no violence, save for the comic books of Libertarians.
I think you're a little confused about who wants "something for nothing".
There's somebody here saying "Wah-wah-wah! I want lots of cops and clean streets and good schools and shiny bombers and foreign adventures and snappy uniforms and no child left behind... and I don't want to pay any taxes!"
...but they ain't wearing a wookie suit. "Adult" my butt.
A reminder: Chewbacca and his clan have kicked imperial storm-trooper butt from the binary blasted wastes of Arkanis to the Lesai bazaars of Zebitrope VIII.
Wookies have ALWAYS made better friends than enemies...Just sayin'.
Wow, this one went far afield. We have people arguing about a horrific war that has little relevance except as a reminder of what happens when people refuse to comprimise. Others are making like a WWII poster and asking what are YOU doing to make a difference, and not accepting it as enough, while failing to provide examples of what exactly that person should be doing.
This is why the internet is such a lousy place for a discusion. We all sit behind our keyboards, smug in our moral and idealogical superiority, and simply pound away that WE ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG. Bah.
Of course, it does give me some reading material while I sip my coffee.
I have lived on the west coast my whole life, and while I may have had (probably did have) relatives on one side or the other of the Incivil War, I have no idea who they might have been or what they might have done. I say that only to say this, from the perspective of someone with no real passion for either side:
"Lincoln did not levy war on his country; the South did."
That was, of course, the very point at issue when the shooting started.
The citizens of Virginia were citizens of Virginia when the war started. They made no war on their country, because their country was the state of Virginia. Their country was not the union of political convenience between the states. They were patriots supporting their country when they marched to war to support that country's foreign policy and its attempts to disentangle itself from what its citizens had come to view as a dangerous foreign alliance.
Calling it treason against their country when the war was fought over that very question is downright disingenuous.
Did Lincoln levy war against his country? From his perspective, he certainly did: again, that's what the shooting was about. He thought the union was inseparable, and that the alliance between sovereign states made the United States a true country.
The south was wrong in part because a state can no more give up part of its sovereignty than a lady can give up part of her virtue -- as they and everyone discovered. To their sorrow. The war was already lost the day they ceded "some of" their states' sovereignty away and joined the union. All the rest was just bookkeeping details, heartbreaking as they became.
Looking across the Atlantic today, I wonder how many people in the countries of Europe realize that they are no longer citizens of France, of Italy, of Germany, but are instead citizens of the European Union. If war in Europe broke out today, would Brits fighting to retain or regain their national sovereignity be traitors (to the EU), or patriots (to their own country)?
Don't say "it depends who wins," because that's entirely irrelevant to their actual motivations. That would be sloppy journalism -- and it's equally sloppy as history.
The people who write the history books get to demonize the motivations and characters of the people who lost. But it hardly changes the thing as it IS to the people with boots on the ground.
jeff said... We have people arguing about a horrific war that has little relevance except as a reminder of what happens when people refuse to comprimise.
Yeah, that Missouri Compromise worked out splendidly.
"Others are making like a WWII poster and asking what are YOU doing to make a difference, and not accepting it as enough, while failing to provide examples of what exactly that person should be doing. "
Only because yet others are making claims to be making a difference with what they're doing (when in reality they're only making a difference for themselves rather than the country, as implied). Seems natural to ask what exactly they are doing. You'll also note that none that inquired as to exactly what was being done made a single similar claim themselves. Further, I'm not going to tell anyone what they should be doing. If you desire that I suggest you go find your nearest micromanaging nanny-state supporter and poke them.
"This is why the internet is such a lousy place for a discusion."
Piss poor reading comprehension is the real bugger.
"Did Lincoln levy war against his country? From his perspective, he certainly did: again, that's what the shooting was about. He thought the union was inseparable, and that the alliance between sovereign states made the United States a true country."
Lincoln's own pre-war words refute that. He didn't want to take the economic hit and have to deal with a potentially frisky England and France, plain and simple. If the USA would have been as strong without the CSA as with it, not a shot would have been fired.
"Looking across the Atlantic today, I wonder how many people in the countries of Europe realize that they are no longer citizens of France, of Italy, of Germany, but are instead citizens of the European Union."
An increasing amount. As more countries go down the tubes economically (Greece so far, Spain will probably be next), even more will figure it out (and the EU hasn't exactly been popular since the currency rolled out and prices for virtually everything doubled). It'll be interesting to see if the EU even exists in 30 years.
"If war in Europe broke out today, would Brits fighting to retain or regain their national sovereignity be traitors (to the EU), or patriots (to their own country)?"
"Southern motives were to preserve slavery and white supremacy."
Perhaps, in the same way that Yankee motives were to nationalize assets, reward carpetbaggery, and create an entire subclass of beholden black dependency. Follow the money/power, then as now.
OA, I think you just like seeing your words show up every time you refresh the page.
Maybe you really think that 600,000+ American lives spent is better than finding a middle ground. If that's the case, I suggest you seek psychological assistance.
Only because yet others are making claims to be making a difference with what they're doing (when in reality they're only making a difference for themselves rather than the country, as implied).
In your opinion, anyway. According to some folks, unless you are actively shooting at Federal officials you aren’t doing enough. Whereas simply showing up to vote is doing more than 40% of the population does.
Piss poor reading comprehension is the real bugger.
It's moot. Most folks are so fixated on the point they want to make that the context of any rebuttal doesn't matter, simply the fact that someone opposes them is enough to continue a tirade.
"OA, I think you just like seeing your words show up every time you refresh the page."
Yup, that must be it.
"Maybe you really think that 600,000+ American lives spent is better than finding a middle ground."
Nope, but hey, keep right on putting words in my mouth.
"If that's the case, I suggest you seek psychological assistance."
Make up a statement and try to make it look like those must be my feelings on the matter, then tell me I need physiological help for it...nice. Cripes, does this look like Democratic Underground to you?
Further, actual deaths were much, much higher when factoring in civilians and fatalities years later from injuries sustained and starvation. Hell of a thing to put countries through for money.
"In your opinion, anyway. According to some folks, unless you are actively shooting at Federal officials you aren’t doing enough. Whereas simply showing up to vote is doing more than 40% of the population does."
In my opinion? Did you read the exchange with Joanna? Doesn't seem like it. Nor did either one of us advocate shooting federal officials.
Why is it that when Democrats get in a position where they have the power to enact whatever they can, they choose to pass laws that will assuredly get most of their asses tossed out of office? It's like watching lemmings run for the cliff, but instead of peacefully diving off the cliff to their fate, they burn your house down on the way.
ReplyDeleteYou mean like Medicare Part D, No Child Left Behind, and the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act?
ReplyDeleteOh, no, wait... that's the other party that likes getting their asses thrown out of office. ;)
I'm not buying it if I don't want it (currently have healthcare so I have no pony in the "mandatory healthcare" race - yet). If I decide I don't want healthcare and don't buy it, I *will not* pay their fine. God help anyone who'd take me to jail for not buying something I don't want because *they* are gonna need healthcare.
ReplyDeleteMandatory healthcare will inaugurate a blood letting this country hasn't seen since the War of Northern Aggression, and folks will resist - and I will help those innocent folks in their struggle for Liberty!
”If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
They might get tossed, into lucrative consultancies. And the law will remain, forever untouchable except for increases.
ReplyDeleteBut not to worry, the President promises, in writing, that your insurance will not cost more.
I'll bet his lips were moving when he wrote it, and you know what that signifies on a politician...
ReplyDelete"Mandatory healthcare will inaugurate a blood letting this country hasn't seen since the War of Northern Aggression, and folks will resist"
ReplyDeleteYeah, Chewie, just like mandatory auto insurance caused blood in the streets?
Besides if you mean the War of Southern Treason, I think the natural rights involved in slavery during that war hardly compare to a policy dispute here.
Going to get us some? The Dems in the House are running for cover, even Stupak gave a big ol' gunstore "No!" yesterday.
November is coming. You kids stay in the car and read comics, and keep your hands off your sister's side, and the adults/Republicans will come and fix this.
Shootin' Buddy
Og posted the answer to this problem.
ReplyDeleteTreason? I'd vote for secession in a heartbeat if they make healthcare mandatory. Speaking of natural rights, it's quite unnatural to require someone to get something they don't want. Again, sir, "Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you *and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.*"
ReplyDeleteDunno why, but this news blip seemed related to the discussion, here.
ReplyDelete"Shark-filled aquarium in Dubai mall springs leak (AP)"
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RE: health care: REMOVE most of the middle management positions, and disband corporate headquarters entirely, especially in hospitals -- instead of taxing THE PUBLIC.
All the useless surplus health care money anyone could ever want, is being wasted daily, in suit-wearing, paper-shuffling, mutual butt-stroking, catered lunch 'executive' meetings and offices. Hospitals are are a money-mine, flying the Jolly Roger of Non-profit.
That's not even counting the Insurance Company administrations, who apparently use Dickensian England as a Manual for Allowed Care choices.
The health industry is the home vector pool for useless MBA-incompetents that couldn't hack it in the for profit fields. But give'em the power to make life or death decisions and they just know they are nearly God, if not actually God.
The trubbles dey has,iz the trubbles dey brought upon themselves.
Since the early to mid 1970, when 'business administrators' were brought into the hands-on end of medicine, the resultant administrative atherosclerosis has been accumulating.
Partly, it is a result of the fat Government money they could bill and receive over the past decades. Once the 'Healthers' could suck on the tax-teat, mere competence and the ability to run a business on a sound footing went down the flusher. The Great Society has been SUCH a success, eh?
And NOW, we should ask for more of that steaming dish of shit gruel? With a Federal Seasoning?
MOLON LABE -- with a dollar bill in my fist.
I think someone's wookie suit has a stuck zipper.
ReplyDeleteSeriously: For all the talk about "armed insurrection" this and "blood in the streets" that, how many of the people making noise about it are actually willing to *start* the violence?
My guess? <0.001%
Take a lesson from Les Miz, too: All the barricades in the world won't do you any good if the rest of the population just rolls their eyes and goes about their business.
SB,
ReplyDelete"and the adults/Republicans"
They're letting adults into the GOP now? When'd they start that? Yay! More Medicare and government control of education!
I know you love Mitt and Newt and Mike Huckabee, but you can tell us what really happened. We don't believe you "walked into a door". They hit you, didn't they?
PS:
ReplyDeleteHey,Shootin' Buddy... Did you know our Libertarian councilman introduced Guns In Parks and our GOP mayor said he'd veto it?
I'm gonna laugh and laugh and laugh my ass off watching you carry a "Governor Cornpone For President" sign when they nominate him in '12.
I'm not talking about "insurrection", rather I'm talking about defending myself, my neighbors, and my State against criminals who, in Mob-like fashion, come around making offers we can't refuse. Until people en mass start to think the same way, nothing will change.
ReplyDelete"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." --Mark Twain
Obama fumbled the ball in New Jersey, Virginia, Massachusetts, the Olympics, the Global Warming Conference, inter alia and yet people are out of their minds with this stage production?
ReplyDeleteShootin' Buddy
*rolls eyes* Well, here goes the secession talk again. Don't get your way, just secede. That will make it all better.
ReplyDeleteNot.
People rolled their eyes @ the American Colonists in the 18th century when we seceded from Britain.
ReplyDeleteAs our own Declaration of Independence says, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
I'm not talking about "insurrection", rather I'm talking about defending myself, my neighbors, and my State against criminals who, in Mob-like fashion, come around making offers we can't refuse. Until people en mass start to think the same way, nothing will change.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I meant. Defending yourself from what, exactly? Are you proposing we take up arms against a sea of suit-and-tie bureaucrats? You can't fistfight an idea. The best you can do is stand your ground and wait for them to start shooting. Otherwise you're no better than the idiot with the airplane in Texas: "They're not treating me the way I want to be treated, so I'm going to blow 'em up!" Nobody's going to side with that. It's not about whether to take up arms; it's about when and why -- in other words, exhaust ALL other options first.
The best you can do is stand your ground and wait for them to start shooting.
ReplyDeleteThat's precisely what I mean.
Literally, I will stand my ground. I won't go to jail like a good little slave for not paying a fine as a result of not buying a service I don't want. In addition, I am also saying that if *any* of my neighbors/friends/family decides to do the same, it is my obligation to help the innocent defend themselves against criminals.
I'm not talking about anything like that poor guy in Texas did who was pushed over the edge and flew a plane into a building - that was wrong. I'm just gonna sit at home, and wait, hoping trouble doesn't come my way, but getting ready in case it does.
I won't go to jail like a good little slave for not paying a fine as a result of not buying a service I don't want.
ReplyDeleteI think that's where we differ. I don't see going to jail as being "a good little slave". Quite the contrary: It's the consequence of standing my ground. Meekness is not weakness; it's standing up under ill and unjust treatment because I know I'm right, and I don't have to prove it to anyone. There's more than one line in the sand, in other words: The line where I stop cooperating and the line where I start shooting. The latter is much, much, much further back than the former.
Nathan,
ReplyDeleteRE: Your 10:27 comment;
How could it be worse?
Seriously, I'd take my chances with it, as we absolutely know what the polar opposite of the situation involves.
I had this conversation last weekend, even the secession bit. Regarding healthcare, I've had socialized medical care twice, in the military (still the most successful socialist entity in history!) and my family used the Belgian medical system for four years, even spawned a kid there. Great system, worked really well. Doctors made house calls even. So I have no problem with health care being provided for citizens as a concept. I just don't think that our government can set up a system that would function with any sort of efficiency, and certainly not better than what I have now.
ReplyDeleteWhen I look at the healthcare "debate" it reminds me of the WWF wrestling. In front of the crowd they are wrestling, taunting each other and fighting. As soon as the crowd isn't looking they are having a beer and laughing at the dullards who spent money to watch the show.
ReplyDeleteWhat theater! The side responsible for the current "system" is the one demonizing it, and the other side is defending the distorted, heavily tax-subsidized system as the "best in the world".
ReplyDeleteNone of it has a thing to do with "health care", which has historically and is currently provided primarily by individuals and their doctors and nurses.
I unfortunately am not afflicted with the hubris to think that I could re-chart the course of an enormous and complicated market segment, based solely on superficial knowledge, so I guess I have no solution to offer.
p.s. I predict mob r^H^H^H^Hdemocracy will get its ass kicked by economics. But hey, economics always wins.
I don't see going to jail as being "a good little slave".
ReplyDeleteI can see where you're coming from, and that's very noble... but I'm just not willing to die in jail while the world sorts out their sh*t, thanks.
SB, you do get your blue suit on when you feel your Yanks have been slighted, eh? It does give your usually reasoned and authoritative commentary an air of the schoolyard, every time.
ReplyDeletePlus, the 'Pubs are all about red, remember? Take another look at that Us and Dem map and tell me where all the red is. For someone so defensive of Northern failures, you sure are quick to hitch your wagon to the Southern 'Pubs that have, temporarily at least, resuscitated that dead elephant.
And you liken what is proposed, the .gov coup and dismantling of what is still the best health care system in the world, to car insurance? That's a pretty poor example considering how many uninsured motorists there are running around, and the effects of that for all of us who actually have and pay for coverage.
Yeah, let's carry that success right into the middle of the single largest budget/deficit item facing us, with the capacity to take from us both our wealth and our health. Talk about an "elephant" in the room!
Of course literal bloodletting is unlikely (except maybe in some of those .gov hospitals), and this idiocy has to be defeated before it begins. But I wouldn't look to the 'Pubs for the solution; they are as responsible for the current morass as anybody.
This "tea party" thing has some actual possibilities as a viable third party...let's call it the "T-Party". There are people calling themselves Democrats and Republicans rubbing elbows with libertarians, independents, the unaligned and the simply disenfranchised who are shutting up for once, listening to what the people are saying, and acknowledging that a new party with any chance of survival needs not "leaders", but managers and implementers to try to undo the damage of the past two decades and get us back on track as a nation of free, self-sustaining individuals.
I truly expect that there will be a lot of incumbents and usual suspects who are in for a rude awakening in the next two rounds of elections. We can hope and dream, can't we?
AT
When I look at the healthcare "debate" it reminds me of the WWF wrestling. In front of the crowd they are wrestling, taunting each other and fighting. As soon as the crowd isn't looking they are having a beer and laughing at the dullards who spent money to watch the show.
ReplyDeleteJay T, you've been watching "The Obama Deception", huh? :D Great movie!
Reagan spoke about this topic in 1961.
ReplyDelete"Take another look at that Us and Dem map and tell me where all the red is."
ReplyDeleteMassachusetts. Who brought the 'Rups back to life there . . . Gov. Cornpone maybe?
"And you liken what is proposed, the .gov coup and dismantling of what is still the best health care system in the world, to car insurance?"
No, I liken the empty bongwater-drinking rhetoric of Wookies and the Sons of Treason Lost Causers and their talk of revolution to the mass violence that transpired after mandatory auto insurance was instituted.
Health insurance reform is a disaster, but the Republicans are going to stop it. The whiners can go read their comic books about Wookies in Space, just hand me the tire iron when I call for it.
Shootin' Buddy
The ignorance of Mr/Ms/Mrs Anonymous is pathetic. You really think the Republicans will fix anything? Both parties are bought and paid for by the same lobbyists and special interests. Remember Medicare Pt. 5 was a G. W. Bush initiative.
ReplyDeleteContinuing the stunning example of utterly pathetic ignorance is your belief that Southers are traitors. We seceded in peace, and were attacked. Slavery was on the way out, and you're obviously ignorant of that era's history. Did you know that both Lee and Jackson were both known for their hatred of slavery? Did you know that those two and Fredrick Douglas both openly admired John Brown? Did you know Mr. Brown was a southerner? You even know who he is???!! Besides, you can't say secession is treasonous until you admit the USA is full of traitors to the Crown of England - we seceded from them if you recall. It is "self-evident" that "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." But you likely don't even know where that quote came from.
I guess, if they fine you and make you pay it through taxes, you could fly a small airplane into an IRS office. Of course, nobody would do something like that to protest the government, when people say stuff like that they're just talking out their asses.
ReplyDeleteBrass
"The ignorance of Mr/Ms/Mrs Anonymous is pathetic. You really think the Republicans will fix anything?"
ReplyDeleteUnlike some who want something for nothing and want things "fixed", I think the Republicans will stop health care reform.
They beat Obama today like a drum.
"Southers are traitors. We seceded in peace, and were attacked."
Right, because Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush flew into South Cackalacky in a Blackwater helicopter and fired on the fort.
The South started the war to preserve slavery. The South got its teeth handed to it by Republicans.
Republicans stopped slavery. Republicans will stop socialism (half way there, the USSR is on the ash heap of history along with Nazi Germany and the CSA).
Shootin' Buddy
"...The South started the war to preserve slavery. The South got its teeth handed to it by Republicans.
ReplyDeleteRepublicans stopped slavery..."
Horseshit.
The South did not start a war over slavery. That's a canard.
ReplyDeleteHowever, since the subject is healthcare it's important to note that no matter where we reside, under Obama, we are royally screwed with this Leviathan of a bill.
How do you refuse to pay for gummint health care when they take it out of your paycheck before you ever paid? Very few people have jobs that pay under the table.
ReplyDelete"How do you refuse to pay for gummint health care when they take it out of your paycheck before you ever paid? Very few people have jobs that pay under the table."
ReplyDeleteIt's called going Galt, and more folks are taking to it by the day.
Look for it to ramp up if this latest round of pissing-on-my-leg-and-tell-me-it's-raining gets any traction.
I know it's the principle of the thing and all that but we're talking what, $5 - $10 a day max, for "just go to the doc" health insurance? That's a pack of smokes and a big mac!
ReplyDeleteWait, maybe I should find a better comparison.
Phil
D3vnull, I applaud your gut feelings, but I thing Joanna has it nailed. If a million guys do it, it's a civil war. If three guys do it, they get whacked as nutters.
ReplyDeleteI agree that slavery wasn't a real cause of the civil war, only a propaganda lever the North used to keep the newly enfranchised British working class hostile to Britain's entry to the war on the side of the south.
The Emancipation Proclamation only "freed" slaves behind Confederate lines. Slaves in the Union (like the ones owned by General Grant in Missouri) had to wait for the end of the war and government reimbursment for their owners.
Parenthetically, Grant wrote "If I thought for a moment this war was being fought to end slavery, I would resign my commision and offer my sword to the Confederacy".
The war was primarily started by the government's supporting itself on export taxes, predominantly on cotton and tobacco. Everyone in the U.S. outside of the South got a free ride on the backs of the Southern exporters.
The shift to the far more efficient sharecropping system was delayed by the financially strapped growers needing the value of their slaves as collateral for ever more loans to keep them afloat in a decaying economy.
Virginia stayed neutral until Union forces crossed it under arms, confiscating what they wanted as they went. That, more than anything else, is what caused Robert E. Lee to resign his commission, spurn Lincoln's offer to command the U.S. army, and join the Rebels.
How long would the Civil War have lasted with Virginia in the Union, and the Northern armies commanded by Lee?
But I still have to back Shootin' Buddy on the Republicans. A third of them always were conservatives, and the Contract With America crowd had a lot on the ball.
It fell apart with Gingrich's departure and the departure of the self term-limited people who came into office in the mid-90's.
The majority of the Republicans then morphed into tax and spend Republicrats, differing from the Democrats in firearms legislation and support for the military, but not much else.
But in our society, third parties are a disaster. Clinton won with 42% of the vote because of Perot, and Socialists always vote Democrat. And I'm not ready to start shooting, because I'll get shot too, and it won't mean a damn thing.
The Tea Party folks have made a much bigger dent than I thought they would or could. They can have some real effect of the Republicans, but can never have any effect on the Democrats.
So a Republican party swung right to get a chance at victory is a hell of a lot better than a conservative third party that splits our vote and allows the sociopaths of the Pelosi/Reed/Barry The Weasel type to win in a walk.
The state nullification thing is interesting too. It fits in nicely with the Tea Party effort, and brings in a lot of Independents.
I thought the people who said split with the Republicans and let the Democrats show themselves for what they really are were wrong, and voted for McCain as the lesser of two evils.
I was wrong, and they were right. McCain would have rolled over for most of what the Democrats have been pushing, and we would be worse of now than we are.
The people running the Democratic party aren't just wrong, they're stupid. It's becoming obvious, and it's brining independents over to the conservative side. A newly (albeit moderately) conservative Republican party is arising from the ashes, and it can win.
Voting third party or sitting home and talking violence just solidifies the left's hold on us.
I like the idea of secession too, but not for us. Offer it to the big coastal cities. Start with San Francisco and all the others would be jumping for it too.
SB,
ReplyDeleteHave you called Gov. Cornpone's office to find out what color the Huckabee '12 stickers are going to be? I figure you can get a head start and pick a truck in a color that won't clash.
Your arguments would be more persuasive if they weren't entirely based on ad hominem nonsense. How come you never respond to the questions about those awful pieces of Democrat legislation like Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind? Every time somebody mentions actual issues, you just rehash the same old "bong water" and "wookie suit" jokes.
Where's the incentive for the party to change if you're going to reward them with your vote no matter what they do?
Treason? Treason like during the Indianapolis treason trials treason? Treason like during what the New York Journal of Commerce called "the present unholy war" (and that was before Lincoln authorized the starvation and artillery bombardment of women and children in his "Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field" Number 100, 1863)? Oh, absolutely. Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus and USA civilians (note: I said USA, not CSA) were tried and convicted before military commissions; Freedom of the press was abridged (over 300 Northern newspapers were suppressed for having the audacity to speak against Saint Lincoln...the above New York Journal of Commerce was driven out of business, as were others); a Central Confederacy received serious support from many in the states of New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio (there were others) due to the Federal government's abuse of the Constitution (small government? what's that?) even before the war started; clergy were rounded up and detained for perceived Southern sympathies; New York City was placed under military occupation; and over 20,000 political prisoners were held without so much as legal counsel, to name but a scant few things (check out all the acts that were passed during the war. most weren't remotely constitutional). To quote Lincoln's secretary of war, traitors were found "in the Senate, in the House of Representatives, in the Cabinet, in the Federal Courts...Treason was flagrant in the revenue and in the post-office service, as well as in the Territorial governments and in the judicial reserves." Treason indeed, Secretary Stanton, you paranoid, treasonous bastard. Another quote, from Northern abolitionist Wendell Phillips, "We live today, every one of us, under martial law. The Secretary of State puts into his Bastille, with a warrant as irresponsible as that of Louis XIV, any man whom he pleases."
ReplyDeleteAhhh...quotes are fun. How about a quote from Edward Bates, Lincoln's attorney general? "The demoralizing effect of this civil war is plainly visible in every department of life. The abuse of official powers and thirst for dishonest gain are now so common that they cease to shock."
Hell, Marx and Engels praised the guy and based some of their works off of Lincoln's. How can Americans blindly defend a Commie idol?
Also, can anyone explain how the Southerners were "treasonous"? To quote Lincoln himself in a speech before Congress in regards to the Mexican-American War, "Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."
Treasonous Southerners? Not by Lincoln's own words. Ludwell H. Johnson put a bow on it when he said in 'The Plundering Generation', by Mark W. Summers, "Manufacturers feared the loss of American markets to a flood of cheap British goods pouring through a free-trade Confederacy; Northern shippers feared the loss of their monopoly of the coasting trade and their share of the trans-Atlantic carrying trade; merchants feared the loss of the profits they garnered as middlemen between the South and Europe; creditors feared the loss of Southern debts; the Old Northwest feared the loss or curtailment of the Mississippi trade; the Republicans feared the disintegration of their party should it let the South go and bring upon the North all of the consequences just mentioned."
"How come you never respond to the questions about those awful pieces of Democrat legislation like Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind?"
ReplyDeleteUmmm, because they aren't the point of the post to comment on just whining about how the Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough, in the rain, while everyone else sits in the car and reads science fiction comics and complains about how Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough.
"Every time somebody mentions actual issues, you just rehash the same old "bong water" and "wookie suit" jokes."
Not jokes, obersvations about the empty Libertarian threats of violence/insurrection/I'm-not-coming-out-of-my-room-hold-my-breath-if-I-don't-get-my-way.
"Also, can anyone explain how the Southerners were "treasonous"?"
Because when you levy war on your country you commit Treason and you deserve to swing. As I learned it so many years ago: 1. adherence to the enemy, 2. rendering him aid and comfort.
The war wasn't about slavery and white supremacy? Not if you believe the Lost Causers and the revisionists, but the CSA was up front about their war aims--preserving slavery. Heck, it's even hanging up in Southern state museums.
Point is, Southern Treason did not work out too well for y'all the first time and babbling about violence in the streets won't help you with health care reform.
Shootin' Buddy
Why is everyone such a Gloomy Gus anywho? The Republicans ate Obama's lunch today.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder y'all lost so badly, you quit the fight! :-)
Shootin' Buddy
One word:
ReplyDeleteAndersonville.
Cheap health insurance? Those dirty bastards! What's next, will they start shipping me $2 boxes of surplus .45 ammo? You know what that'll lead to...
ReplyDeleteI'm tellin ya, it's an outrage!
Phil (who isn't usually a troll, but will make an exception in this case)
I'm certainly not in a bad mood. Also in the Economics-Always-Wins category: the Democrats' ridiculous spending spree during a recession has done more to make state-run education accountable than NCLB could ever manage. People are low on cash and sick of automatic union pay raises, so there is crushing scrutiny of how taxes are being spent. Thanks again, President Obama!
ReplyDeleteSB,
ReplyDelete"Ummm, because they aren't the point of the post to comment on just whining about how the Republicans aren't fixing the car fast enough..."
'Not fixing' is one thing, actively slashing the tires is another matter altogether. That is the point that you have steadfastly refused to address in plenty of posts before this one.
Go 'head, here's your chance to tell us how you got that black eye by running into a door: Spin me a yarn about the blows for liberty struck by the adults in the GOP in the Medicare Part D and NCLB fiascos. I'm seriously curious.
PS: And do it without any hand-waving about bongs and wookies, if you can.
ReplyDeleteWhatever the outcome of this 'Healthcare' theater they had today, the fact remains that come next fall Republicans can't win big without the help and endorsements of the most conservative members of our VOTING society.
ReplyDeleteThe Democrats, however, can retain their plurality without the help of their most liberal members of our political spectrum. They really don't need them.
So, the question remains will the Republicans sincerely move their political positions to those that Conservatives demand or we will get the usual heave-ho once they think they've got the votes they need to resume power?
We have been bitten so many times by this dog I don't trust the lot of them (on either side)...
All The Best,
Frank W. James
Gewehr98 said...
ReplyDeleteOne word:
Andersonville.
One word:
Elmira.
"Because when you levy war on your country you commit Treason and you deserve to swing."
ReplyDeleteYet again:
"Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better."
By Lincoln's own words the Confederacy was its own country. Later, as president, he didn't want the competition because he new good and well who Europe would favor.
And I guess all the Founding Fathers deserved to swing, eh?
"The war wasn't about slavery and white supremacy?"
Lincoln again:
"I will say then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way, the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor have I ever been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, or having them to marry with white people...there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man."
You, Shootin' Buddy, are a blithering idiot and a bigot. End of discussion.
TJP said...
ReplyDelete"...the Democrats' ridiculous spending spree during a recession..."
Not so funny thing about that...if you take the government's spending that's been directly aimed at "stopping the bleeding" out of the equation, the economic contraction is at 10%. That qualifies it for a depression.
Have I mentioned that the commercial real estate market hasn't really started its true fall yet? Or that most of the bad home mortgages are still off the books and festering for the banks? Or that Europe is spectacularly far up the creek? (Greece? Hell, everyone thought Spain would go first...)
More like Crap & Rape.
ReplyDeleteOA said...
ReplyDeleteGewehr98 said...
One word:
Andersonville.
One word:
Elmira.
Four words: It's war. Shit happens.
In other words, you can argue all day long about who was right and who was wrong, but it won't change the reality of who won and who lost. And I really don't give two hoots about northern aggression or white supremacy or what have you; the point is that it happened, it's over and the sooner we all adjust to that fact the sooner we can get some real work done around here.
And for the record, I have a so-many-greats uncle who was in Andersonville; he spent the rest of his life in the asylum. So it's not like I don't have a stake in this. I just have more of a stake in getting shit done instead of arguing over who spit in whose milk first.
"I just have more of a stake in getting shit done instead of arguing over who spit in whose milk first."
ReplyDeleteWell, that begs a question...exactly what shit are you getting done? About a much as everyone else (which is to say "not a hell of a lot"), right?
Joanna, these guys aren't talking about the last civil war, they're talking about the next one.
ReplyDeleteSB's blathering is fear; fear that there will be a secession or split of some kind, along some lines, in the near future. And if you think the economic engine of the country was in the South in the 1850's, just consider the situation today.
Forced unity is always a pursuit of assets...follow the money. And then as now racism is a calculated diversion.
AT
these guys aren't talking about the last civil war, they're talking about the next one.
ReplyDeleteAgain: Shit happens. I've got a big enough pile of it to deal with now without adding a bunch of hypotheticals to the mix. Quit talking; get stuff done; rinse; repeat. Nobody benefits from this kind of argument in the end.
Oh. This sure reads like you're talking about history:
ReplyDelete"...you can argue all day long about who was right and who was wrong, but it won't change the reality of who won and who lost...it happened, it's over and the sooner we all adjust to that fact the sooner we can get some real work done around here..."
The future is coming and it's not hypothetical; there is huge benefit in learning from history so as not to repeat it. And doing "stuff" without openly discussing differences is how "shit" happens, and how we all ended up with such a giant stinking pile of it.
What "real work" and "stuff" do you advocate needs doing so urgently?
AT
What "real work" and "stuff" do you advocate needs doing so urgently?
ReplyDeleteMy life. I find that keeping my apartment clean and paying my debts on time is a better use of my energy than freaking out about the next big War of Mom He's Touching Me Again. (And before you ask: The only reason I've been in this thread so long is because I've been off work all week and I'm laid up with a bum ankle.)
That's not to say I don't think about the future and what might happen. I do. Quite a lot, actually. But if there's one thing I know it's that revolution should only ever be an absolute last resort. It's exciting to talk about taking down the system and fighting the man, but let's face it: It's just talk. Will I do everything in my power to counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions? You're damn right I will. But there won't be another Concorde or Lexington, and I think it would be foolish to force the issue.
In other words, I choose to focus most of my attention on nearer things. I can actually make an immediate difference there. The government and the country will go on with or without me. My life, obligations and relationships won't.
So in other words you decided to be a wet blanket because you don't like the discussion about things that you see as not impacting your daily life? Actual question, as I'm a bit confused as to your grounds for playing den mother. You certainly have the right to your opinion, but isn't that what everyone else is indulging as well? You're not a Van Pelt, by any chance?
ReplyDelete"Will I do everything in my power to counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions? You're damn right I will."
I ask again, what have you done? You keep making these blustery statements like a pudgy 50 year old white guy in a shoot me first vest yet somehow I doubt you've done "everything" in your power to "counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions", or much of anything at all...unless you consider crabassing about it online to be the extent of your powers. Further, your last paragraph directly contradicts your claims of doing everything in your power to "counter and undermine unreasonable and unAmerican government actions".
Yup, I'd say it's late winter.
You could call me a Van Pelt, I suppose -- I have a low tolerance for nonsense, and I'm generally not afraid to say so. :-)
ReplyDeleteWhat have I done? I've marched on fucking Washington, that's what I've done. Other than that, I stay as informed as possible and I share what I learn -- with the resources currently at my disposal, that's about the extent of my options. And about my last paragraph -- the single most American thing I can do right now is become as self-sufficient as possible. I can't bring down bad laws or destroy corrupt ideas; the only way I can fight them is to make sure they have no place in my life. So that's what I do. Just because I'm not ministering to tribes in Africa doesn't mean I'm not doing the Lord's work, as it were.
And for the record, I'm a svelte 26-year-old female. I don't own a vest. :-)
"In other words, I choose to focus most of my attention on nearer things. I can actually make an immediate difference there. The government and the country will go on with or without me. My life, obligations and relationships won't."
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty good mini-manifesto for the modern libertarian. My son is your age and shares your attitude of self reliance and personal responsibility; it heartens me that there are many young people that have resisted being bought by the nanny state.
But so many are blinded by the light that while you're over there minding your own business, that government that "will go on without" you is busy co-opting all of that self-determination right out from under you. Discussing and countering that trend demands at least some of our attention while we keep on keepin' on with our own lives, and that's just what we're doing right here.
Hope your ankle is better, but that getting back your ambulatory won't keep you from making yourself heard.
AT
Boo hoo hoo, Lincoln didn't like Black people either so Treason to preserve slavery is just fine. Lincoln did not levy war on his country; the South did. Southern motives were to preserve slavery and white supremacy.
ReplyDeleteGeneral Early is very proud that his efforts of shifting focus away from slavery and onto some other cause are being rewarded today.
Health care reform is far removed from slavery which caused the War of Southern Treason. There will be no violence, save for the comic books of Libertarians.
Shootin' Buddy
I think you're a little confused about who wants "something for nothing".
ReplyDeleteThere's somebody here saying "Wah-wah-wah! I want lots of cops and clean streets and good schools and shiny bombers and foreign adventures and snappy uniforms and no child left behind... and I don't want to pay any taxes!"
...but they ain't wearing a wookie suit. "Adult" my butt.
A reminder: Chewbacca and his clan have kicked imperial storm-trooper butt from the binary blasted wastes of Arkanis to the Lesai bazaars of Zebitrope VIII.
ReplyDeleteWookies have ALWAYS made better friends than enemies...Just sayin'.
Wow, this one went far afield. We have people arguing about a horrific war that has little relevance except as a reminder of what happens when people refuse to comprimise. Others are making like a WWII poster and asking what are YOU doing to make a difference, and not accepting it as enough, while failing to provide examples of what exactly that person should be doing.
ReplyDeleteThis is why the internet is such a lousy place for a discusion. We all sit behind our keyboards, smug in our moral and idealogical superiority, and simply pound away that WE ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG. Bah.
Of course, it does give me some reading material while I sip my coffee.
I have lived on the west coast my whole life, and while I may have had (probably did have) relatives on one side or the other of the Incivil War, I have no idea who they might have been or what they might have done. I say that only to say this, from the perspective of someone with no real passion for either side:
ReplyDelete"Lincoln did not levy war on his country; the South did."
That was, of course, the very point at issue when the shooting started.
The citizens of Virginia were citizens of Virginia when the war started. They made no war on their country, because their country was the state of Virginia. Their country was not the union of political convenience between the states. They were patriots supporting their country when they marched to war to support that country's foreign policy and its attempts to disentangle itself from what its citizens had come to view as a dangerous foreign alliance.
Calling it treason against their country when the war was fought over that very question is downright disingenuous.
Did Lincoln levy war against his country? From his perspective, he certainly did: again, that's what the shooting was about. He thought the union was inseparable, and that the alliance between sovereign states made the United States a true country.
The south was wrong in part because a state can no more give up part of its sovereignty than a lady can give up part of her virtue -- as they and everyone discovered. To their sorrow. The war was already lost the day they ceded "some of" their states' sovereignty away and joined the union. All the rest was just bookkeeping details, heartbreaking as they became.
Looking across the Atlantic today, I wonder how many people in the countries of Europe realize that they are no longer citizens of France, of Italy, of Germany, but are instead citizens of the European Union. If war in Europe broke out today, would Brits fighting to retain or regain their national sovereignity be traitors (to the EU), or patriots (to their own country)?
Don't say "it depends who wins," because that's entirely irrelevant to their actual motivations. That would be sloppy journalism -- and it's equally sloppy as history.
The people who write the history books get to demonize the motivations and characters of the people who lost. But it hardly changes the thing as it IS to the people with boots on the ground.
jeff said...
ReplyDeleteWe have people arguing about a horrific war that has little relevance except as a reminder of what happens when people refuse to comprimise.
Yeah, that Missouri Compromise worked out splendidly.
"Others are making like a WWII poster and asking what are YOU doing to make a difference, and not accepting it as enough, while failing to provide examples of what exactly that person should be doing. "
Only because yet others are making claims to be making a difference with what they're doing (when in reality they're only making a difference for themselves rather than the country, as implied). Seems natural to ask what exactly they are doing. You'll also note that none that inquired as to exactly what was being done made a single similar claim themselves. Further, I'm not going to tell anyone what they should be doing. If you desire that I suggest you go find your nearest micromanaging nanny-state supporter and poke them.
"This is why the internet is such a lousy place for a discusion."
Piss poor reading comprehension is the real bugger.
"Did Lincoln levy war against his country? From his perspective, he certainly did: again, that's what the shooting was about. He thought the union was inseparable, and that the alliance between sovereign states made the United States a true country."
ReplyDeleteLincoln's own pre-war words refute that. He didn't want to take the economic hit and have to deal with a potentially frisky England and France, plain and simple. If the USA would have been as strong without the CSA as with it, not a shot would have been fired.
"Looking across the Atlantic today, I wonder how many people in the countries of Europe realize that they are no longer citizens of France, of Italy, of Germany, but are instead citizens of the European Union."
An increasing amount. As more countries go down the tubes economically (Greece so far, Spain will probably be next), even more will figure it out (and the EU hasn't exactly been popular since the currency rolled out and prices for virtually everything doubled). It'll be interesting to see if the EU even exists in 30 years.
"If war in Europe broke out today, would Brits fighting to retain or regain their national sovereignity be traitors (to the EU), or patriots (to their own country)?"
Patriots. Hell, the EU arguably isn't even legal.
"An increasing amount. As more countries go down the tubes economically (Greece so far, Spain will probably be next)..."
ReplyDeleteWoops...Iceland. I forgot Iceland.
"Southern motives were to preserve slavery and white supremacy."
ReplyDeletePerhaps, in the same way that Yankee motives were to nationalize assets, reward carpetbaggery, and create an entire subclass of beholden black dependency. Follow the money/power, then as now.
AT
OA, I think you just like seeing your words show up every time you refresh the page.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you really think that 600,000+ American lives spent is better than finding a middle ground. If that's the case, I suggest you seek psychological assistance.
Only because yet others are making claims to be making a difference with what they're doing (when in reality they're only making a difference for themselves rather than the country, as implied).
In your opinion, anyway. According to some folks, unless you are actively shooting at Federal officials you aren’t doing enough. Whereas simply showing up to vote is doing more than 40% of the population does.
Piss poor reading comprehension is the real bugger.
It's moot. Most folks are so fixated on the point they want to make that the context of any rebuttal doesn't matter, simply the fact that someone opposes them is enough to continue a tirade.
"OA, I think you just like seeing your words show up every time you refresh the page."
ReplyDeleteYup, that must be it.
"Maybe you really think that 600,000+ American lives spent is better than finding a middle ground."
Nope, but hey, keep right on putting words in my mouth.
"If that's the case, I suggest you seek psychological assistance."
Make up a statement and try to make it look like those must be my feelings on the matter, then tell me I need physiological help for it...nice. Cripes, does this look like Democratic Underground to you?
Further, actual deaths were much, much higher when factoring in civilians and fatalities years later from injuries sustained and starvation. Hell of a thing to put countries through for money.
"In your opinion, anyway. According to some folks, unless you are actively shooting at Federal officials you aren’t doing enough. Whereas simply showing up to vote is doing more than 40% of the population does."
In my opinion? Did you read the exchange with Joanna? Doesn't seem like it. Nor did either one of us advocate shooting federal officials.
"It's moot."
Clearly you think so.