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“I only regret that I have but one face to palm for my country.”
Wednesday, May 26, 2010
Overheard in the Office:
Me: "But that's not even a science! That's just somebody taking a Greek or Latin root and tacking '-ology' on the end of it to make their made-up twaddle sound respectable, like 'phrenology' or 'astrology' or 'psychology'!"
Logos just means to say or discuss. In some contexts it can be inferred to mean study or research. Hard sciences have names like physics or optics where disciplines like biology include pieces from the hard sciences.
Hey climatology, is a real science! I can prove it. Just take any real climatologist and look at how fast the MSM and the "Progressive" goons try and personally attack them for pointing out data on climate over time. : ]
Easiest example? Twins don't share the same fate, and fraternal twins often have wildly different personalities.
Also, tell ten astrologers a birthday and you will get ten different readings that contradict each other.
TJP It is. It is science in every respect. It builds it's ideas on empirical evidence and documented research. Most importantly, it is always open to having it's models altered or overturned as new data comes to light. Rigorous documentation, testing and retesting is the only real definition of a field of science.
Hard science Definition noun Any of the natural or physical sciences wherein facts or truths are derived from empirical investigations or experiments based on scientific method.
Supplement In contrast to soft science, hard science relies on quantifiable or empirical data based on scientific method. It focuses on accuracy and objectivity.
Og, Biology and Behaviorism, not the same thing at all.
Also, acting the same every time does not constitute a difference between soft and hard science. Do you grok Brownian motion?
Don't confuse immensely complex systems with random or arbitrary ones. The only level on which biological organisms can be identical is on a micro scale, and in those cases, yes, biological systems function predictably.
Kristopher: I laughed myself to tears on that. Thank you sir.
Michael: First of all, I'm not going to be contentious nor argumentative, just state my viewpoint, YMMV.
I think of mathematics and chemistry and physics as hard sciences, because they have strict rules and experiments in each discipline provide predictable, qualifiable and quantifiable results.
Biology- and for this example, let's merely speak about humans- seems to be a moving target. I'm not talking about the behavior of people, I'm talking about the behavior of their bodies. Frinstance: A substance- lets say, sugar- can be ravenously devoured by one human and yet be toxic to another. And the toxicity can vary- what would kill a diabetic at 45 might not have affected him at 11. Different people react to different substances differently, even under practically identical circumstances. Also, Biology contains within it many disciplines; chemistry, physics, genetics, anatomy, etc. Genetics is a hard science, based on this view, because genetics is quantifiable and repeatable. Anatomy is a hard science because even though we all have a different appearance, we have the same parts (unless genetically deformed) Which is why anything with the LOGOS suffix is generally considered a study rather than a science.
it's confusing because we all take chemistry, biology, and physics in HS, but in reality, Biology is like Chemistry in the same way a car is like a carburetor.
there is no biology in math. There is no biology in physics. There is no biology in Chemistry. There are math, chemistry, and physics in Biology, which in my mind makes it a study rather than a science unto itself. Just an opinion, a way of looking at it. Your mileage may vary, as I've said.
WV: Repalgyn. Hooking back up with your old friend the gynecologist.
mathematics is a science, optics is a science, and they are not moving targets. They are finite and their laws are immutable. We may not fully understand them, but it doesn't make them moving targets, the only thing that moves is our understanding.
Again, do not confuse amazingly complex with random. Different bodies react different ways to the same substance not because they follow different rules. The point is they follow the SAME rules, however their makeup is different thus you get different results. As Tam says, all science is a moving target, because science is the method by which we discover, not a sum total of what we know. That is called data.
The lines between the sciences are not a strict as you think. There is plenty of Biology in chemistry. Chemistry and physics overlap all over the place. There is math in every science, and yes biology can be described in mathematical terms. Biology is quantifiable and measurable, thus hard science. You are entitled to any opinion you wish, and I will defend that right with my life. However it behooves you (since I assume you use the services of biologists every day of your life, a life that might not have lasted long enough to post this without the science of biology) to treat this science with all the respect it has earned.
Math begets physics, Physics begets Chemistry, Chemistry begets Biology. Therefore Biology is the ultime study of all things scientific. :) I will admit as a Biologist I am a little biased.
Og: Organic molecules. Ask Dow chemicals if they need to know biology to do their jobs.
Yes, if you take away physics and Chemistry, Biology can't exist. But then neither of them can without math. By your logic, only Mathematics is a true science.
Sobriant: As a functional life-form, I tend to agree.
"By your logic, only Mathematics is a true science."
You get an F for reading comprehension. I'm still waiting for the biology in chemistry example, and will wait forever because it does not exist. organic molecules do not require organisms to exist.
Sobriant comes closer to a meaningful explanation, but you can take that a lot of directions, such as engineering, not just biology. Sorry. You'll have to do much better than that.
As I have stated, this is not a set of rules that i am trying to establish for everyone to use, but a way of looking at the situation- a model, if you will, that helps ME to understand the relationship between the disciplines. I have yet to hear any other explanation that works better for ME than my model. I'm happy to take the discussion elsewhere, and only even continued the discussion once prodded into doing so. It has never been about me winning anything, only having a discussion. I prefer not to have the discussions on other people's blogs. If Michael wants to continue the discussion he is free to stop by my place and we will thrash away as long as he pleases.
""Science" is what you say it is. A "Study" is what you say it is.
Cool. You are teh victor."
that's the furthest anyone has ever missed the point of what I'm talking about in my life.
It's your blog, so I will shut my trap. I just enjoy a lively debate with intelligent people who require me to think and compose my thoughts. There is no winning, only learning.
There was a big smiley at the end of my post, okay?
Y'all chat however long you want to, and I'll follow the discussion with interest.
It's just that you and I have some fundamental disconnects of the weltanschauung on this issue and we'd have to hammer out a set of terms for fundamental ideas upon which we both could agree and, all in all, I'd rather just have another beer. I just don't have enough typing in my to start from "A is A" and work up to metaphysics, agreeing on each term along the way so that we have a common basis for discussion.
I'd rather just buy you a beer at the next blogmeet and leave it at that. :)
Sorry, don't always catch the smileys on the phone.
What I'm saying is pretty straightforward and easy for anyone to comprehend. And I'm not looking to convince anyone of anything, as I've said. A lot of these discussions, I like to have, because they help me cement my thoughts further, holding them up to the scrutiny of others.
I'd hate for you to buy me a beer, I don't think you could raise the bail money without selling guns, which would be awful, but I'd go for an iced tea.
No one has ever conclusively proven that astrology is twaddle.
ReplyDeleteIt's unprovable, so it's more fantasy, really.
evolutionology?
ReplyDeleteI've always thought astrology rubbish. We Geminis are discriminating about such things.
ReplyDeleteBest wishes.
"evolutionology?"
ReplyDeleteThat's not really a word. "Theology" is, however. ;)
Not science perhaps, but certainly not twaddle...Snarkology is in a class by itself.
ReplyDeleteAT
Logos just means to say or discuss. In some contexts it can be inferred to mean study or research. Hard sciences have names like physics or optics where disciplines like biology include pieces from the hard sciences.
ReplyDeleteIt was a joke. Lighten up, Francis. :p
ReplyDeleteWhat, a guy can't crack wise here anymore?:)
ReplyDeleteLike climatology?
ReplyDeleteAlmost exactly like climatology.
ReplyDeleteI see a great need for experimental verification of the benefits of Therapeutic (as opposed to Diagnostic) Phrenology. I volunteer as a researcher.
ReplyDelete'course, as the benefits mostly accrue to the practitioner, I'm not sure how scientifically objective the data will be.
So that means that fecology would be the study of political promises?
ReplyDeleteClose; politicians.
ReplyDeleteHey climatology, is a real science! I can prove it. Just take any real climatologist and look at how fast the MSM and the "Progressive" goons try and personally attack them for pointing out data on climate over time. : ]
ReplyDeleteProgressiveologists believe in Climatistics.
ReplyDeletePsychology is, in fact, a real science. And so is climatology. Like all sciences, the integrity of the work depends on the integrity of the worker.
ReplyDeleteStaghounds.
ReplyDeleteYes. It has. Many times.
Easiest example? Twins don't share the same fate, and fraternal twins often have wildly different personalities.
Also, tell ten astrologers a birthday and you will get ten different readings that contradict each other.
TJP
It is. It is science in every respect. It builds it's ideas on empirical evidence and documented research. Most importantly, it is always open to having it's models altered or overturned as new data comes to light. Rigorous documentation, testing and retesting is the only real definition of a field of science.
Og:
ReplyDeleteBiology is a hard science:
Hard science
Definition
noun
Any of the natural or physical sciences wherein facts or truths are derived from empirical investigations or experiments based on scientific method.
Supplement
In contrast to soft science, hard science relies on quantifiable or empirical data based on scientific method. It focuses on accuracy and objectivity.
Michael: so, biological organisms always act the same, right?
ReplyDeleteHey ... corrective Phrenology actually works.
ReplyDeleteProvided you use a heavy enough corrective tool.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOg,
ReplyDeleteBiology and Behaviorism, not the same thing at all.
Also, acting the same every time does not constitute a difference between soft and hard science. Do you grok Brownian motion?
Don't confuse immensely complex systems with random or arbitrary ones. The only level on which biological organisms can be identical is on a micro scale, and in those cases, yes, biological systems function predictably.
Kristopher:
I laughed myself to tears on that. Thank you sir.
You forgot the bestest:
ReplyDeleteScientology!
Xenu thanks you.
Your internets is in the mail! :)
ReplyDeleteScientology: the science of studying science!
ReplyDeleteMichael: First of all, I'm not going to be contentious nor argumentative, just state my viewpoint, YMMV.
ReplyDeleteI think of mathematics and chemistry and physics as hard sciences, because they have strict rules and experiments in each discipline provide predictable, qualifiable and quantifiable results.
Biology- and for this example, let's merely speak about humans- seems to be a moving target. I'm not talking about the behavior of people, I'm talking about the behavior of their bodies. Frinstance: A substance- lets say, sugar- can be ravenously devoured by one human and yet be toxic to another. And the toxicity can vary- what would kill a diabetic at 45 might not have affected him at 11. Different people react to different substances differently, even under practically identical circumstances. Also, Biology contains within it many disciplines; chemistry, physics, genetics, anatomy, etc. Genetics is a hard science, based on this view, because genetics is quantifiable and repeatable. Anatomy is a hard science because even though we all have a different appearance, we have the same parts (unless genetically deformed) Which is why anything with the LOGOS suffix is generally considered a study rather than a science.
it's confusing because we all take chemistry, biology, and physics in HS, but in reality, Biology is like Chemistry in the same way a car is like a carburetor.
"Biology- and for this example, let's merely speak about humans- seems to be a moving target."
ReplyDeleteAll science is a moving target, as this transmission through the lumineferous aether proves. ;)
PS: And molecular biology? Prithee, what there?
ReplyDeleteMolecular biology is a subset of biology.
ReplyDeletethere is no biology in math. There is no biology in physics. There is no biology in Chemistry. There are math, chemistry, and physics in Biology, which in my mind makes it a study rather than a science unto itself. Just an opinion, a way of looking at it. Your mileage may vary, as I've said.
WV: Repalgyn. Hooking back up with your old friend the gynecologist.
Don't sniff his hands.
No matter how much he goads you into it.
mathematics is a science, optics is a science, and they are not moving targets. They are finite and their laws are immutable. We may not fully understand them, but it doesn't make them moving targets, the only thing that moves is our understanding.
ReplyDeleteTam, you wouldn't happen to have been discussing "killology" would you?
ReplyDeletebenEzra,
ReplyDeleteToo bad I just mailed the internets to somebody else, because otherwise you'd have just won it. ;)
Tam is certainly a preeminent killologist. I look for a tarantino movie in her future.
ReplyDeleteThe seminal reference.
ReplyDeleteJim
Og:
ReplyDeleteAgain, do not confuse amazingly complex with random. Different bodies react different ways to the same substance not because they follow different rules. The point is they follow the SAME rules, however their makeup is different thus you get different results. As Tam says, all science is a moving target, because science is the method by which we discover, not a sum total of what we know. That is called data.
The lines between the sciences are not a strict as you think. There is plenty of Biology in chemistry. Chemistry and physics overlap all over the place. There is math in every science, and yes biology can be described in mathematical terms. Biology is quantifiable and measurable, thus hard science. You are entitled to any opinion you wish, and I will defend that right with my life. However it behooves you (since I assume you use the services of biologists every day of your life, a life that might not have lasted long enough to post this without the science of biology) to treat this science with all the respect it has earned.
Awesomeology: The study of all things Tam.
"There is plenty of Biology in chemistry"
ReplyDeletebefore we go any further, I'd love to see an example of this. Just one will do.
Math begets physics, Physics begets Chemistry, Chemistry begets Biology. Therefore Biology is the ultime study of all things scientific. :)
ReplyDeleteI will admit as a Biologist I am a little biased.
Og: Organic molecules. Ask Dow chemicals if they need to know biology to do their jobs.
ReplyDeleteYes, if you take away physics and Chemistry, Biology can't exist. But then neither of them can without math. By your logic, only Mathematics is a true science.
Sobriant: As a functional life-form, I tend to agree.
"By your logic, only Mathematics is a true science."
ReplyDeleteYou get an F for reading comprehension. I'm still waiting for the biology in chemistry example, and will wait forever because it does not exist. organic molecules do not require organisms to exist.
Sobriant comes closer to a meaningful explanation, but you can take that a lot of directions, such as engineering, not just biology. Sorry. You'll have to do much better than that.
Og,
ReplyDeleteFWIW, the reason I have dropped the argument is that, if one party gets to make the definitions, then there's no point in debate.
"Science" is what you say it is. A "Study" is what you say it is.
Cool. You are teh victor.
We'll go talk about something else, then, okay? Perhaps guns, or why hippies suck. :)
As I have stated, this is not a set of rules that i am trying to establish for everyone to use, but a way of looking at the situation- a model, if you will, that helps ME to understand the relationship between the disciplines. I have yet to hear any other explanation that works better for ME than my model. I'm happy to take the discussion elsewhere, and only even continued the discussion once prodded into doing so. It has never been about me winning anything, only having a discussion. I prefer not to have the discussions on other people's blogs. If Michael wants to continue the discussion he is free to stop by my place and we will thrash away as long as he pleases.
ReplyDelete""Science" is what you say it is. A "Study" is what you say it is.
Cool. You are teh victor."
that's the furthest anyone has ever missed the point of what I'm talking about in my life.
It's your blog, so I will shut my trap. I just enjoy a lively debate with intelligent people who require me to think and compose my thoughts. There is no winning, only learning.
ReplyDeleteFour Guns Good. Two Hippies Bad.
Mike: I was having fun. Want to keep it up at my blog?
ReplyDeleteWV: Ruction No shit, sherlock.
Og,
ReplyDeleteThere was a big smiley at the end of my post, okay?
Y'all chat however long you want to, and I'll follow the discussion with interest.
It's just that you and I have some fundamental disconnects of the weltanschauung on this issue and we'd have to hammer out a set of terms for fundamental ideas upon which we both could agree and, all in all, I'd rather just have another beer. I just don't have enough typing in my to start from "A is A" and work up to metaphysics, agreeing on each term along the way so that we have a common basis for discussion.
I'd rather just buy you a beer at the next blogmeet and leave it at that. :)
Sorry, don't always catch the smileys on the phone.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm saying is pretty straightforward and easy for anyone to comprehend. And I'm not looking to convince anyone of anything, as I've said. A lot of these discussions, I like to have, because they help me cement my thoughts further, holding them up to the scrutiny of others.
I'd hate for you to buy me a beer, I don't think you could raise the bail money without selling guns, which would be awful, but I'd go for an iced tea.
It's just as well I stop. I've got a twelve hour drive starting soon and then a five days with inlaws and no internet.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Og.
ReplyDeleteMath isn't a science.
Math is the language of science.
Just like English
or Latin
or Greek.
A end to the superflous tit for tat ? Oh my.
ReplyDelete