...I notice that even relatively new shooters have no problem learning how to reload their autopistols. Push the button, the magazine drops out, insert new magazine, release slide using whatever method one prefers. Easy, right? Physically, yes.I disagree slightly with his conclusion, although I'll agree that doing dry reps only will probably slow you down. You could have perfected your Travis Tomasie -like reloads through countless dry reps, but if you're standing there like a duck in thunder for a second or two before you process the datum that your gun is all empty and stuff, what have you gained?
The issue comes when it's time to reload during a string of fire. When the gun goes empty, the student usually try several times to shoot again, only slowly realizing that there is a problem. They tip the muzzle up and observe that the slide is locked back, then stop for a second or two while their mind confronts the situation: "Oh, I need to reload!" The physical manipulation of the reload proceeds smoothly and quickly, compared to the awkward moments before the decision to reload was made.
Dry reps will not make the situation better, but rather will reinforce this behavior.
This is one reason that, when I deliberately set out to practice reloading from slidelock at the range, I'll take a few mags and load one fully while downloading the other two by putting, say, six in one and three in the other, or whatever. Then shuffle them and load the gun with one while stuffing the other two into my pocket or mag carrier. I don't want to get into that rhythm of "1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-and RELOAD! and 1-2-3..." I want the fact that the gun is empty and needs to be juiced back up to come as a surprise, just like it always is when I'm under any sort of pressure.
Until it's possible to make the last round in a mag play the "Star Spangled Banner" as it exits the muzzle, drilling under widely varied conditions seems like a good idea.
ReplyDeleteShooting in a few IDPA/IPSC matches helps bunches.. And getting some live fire time on the gun will help you tell a malf from a dry gun. Sounds to me like he's got some very new folks to train. Listen to the gun, it will tell you what it needs.
ReplyDeleteAl T.
See? That's why we need an LED counter like Ripley had in Aliens on her iron-sight rifle. To tell us when we are bupkis.
ReplyDelete"See? That's why we need an LED counter like Ripley had in Aliens on her iron-sight rifle. To tell us when we are bupkis."
ReplyDeleteThat's what I want: More crap to break, plus a display that I have to take my head out of the fight to read. ;)
...plus a display that I have to take my head out of the fight to read.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could have it count out loud for you with a speaker or headphones... ;)
I like the thought of misloading clips and then shuffle. That should be fairly realistic given the constraints found at most ranges.
ReplyDeleteCourse it doesn't help much on a revolver as the only indication of a malf is no recoil.
As Al T. pointed out, the gun will already tell you when it's empty.
ReplyDeleteAnd a counter would be silly anyway, since if you have time to put a full mag in the gun, the answer is always "Yes". ;)
I'm doing a class in a week and a half, and my plan is to "randomly" load all of my mags, and pretty much never to full capacity, so I get more practice reloading at speed.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I'm not the only one that uses that "method" of training. It helps stretch the ammo out a bit more too.
ReplyDeleteI get downloading Mags for training. My question, especially for downloaded mags, is what would the process be for that split second muscle training to determine if I should waste time on a malf drill or just reload?
ReplyDeleteDon't I still have to do some sort of inspection of the gun if it goes to slide lock at 3 rounds instead of 15 rounds?
Or am I over thinking this?
I disagree with the statement that dry fire hurts your reload speed. Reloading is a mechanical process and working on that process at slow speed, dry, is often the path to Relámpago. Becoming more mechanically efficient has nothing to do with one's ability to detect, process, and understand the information he is receiving that UR GUNZ M-T! and such.
ReplyDeleteIf you press the trigger and the gun fails to fire, perform an immediate action (normally tap-rack). If during that action you realize the gun is actually empty, reload it. With time, most people learn the difference between how the gun feels cycling normally and how it feels when locking back.
Since most folks experience empty guns far more often than malfunctioning guns, the more common trend I see is someone trying to reload a malfunctioning gun. That usually works out just fine, so no harm no foul.
As for downloading magazines, I think it is an excellent idea. In fact, I teach a drill ("Surprise Reload") in classes which is basically the same thing.
I am shocked at the number of people I see at various shooting ranges who will shoot their pistol to slide lock, and then carefully line up the sights, press/jerk the trigger, get a confused look, stare at the gun until they understand it's empty, then reload.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how a person could be shooting and not even tell that their slide is locked open.
Oooh, I'm famous!
ReplyDeleteAl T. - I watch both beginners and very experienced shooters do this. It's universal, and you can't chalk it up to being a tyro.
ToddG - you missed the point entirely. Dry practice doesn't negatively impact the speed of the physical manipulation of the reload. It does nothing, however, for the training of the realization that you need to reload. That's where the time is eaten up in the context of a defensive shooting. Training to shave tenths off your magazine insertion time means nothing when the cognitive processing takes 8 or 10 times that.
The need is to train frequently and realistically so that the reload procedure becomes an intuitive act, because that's where the efficiency gains are most obvious for most people.
See "Making Breakfast" here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html
Would it be worthwhile to scatter a few "duds" into your training ammo to practice engaging the clear/reload choice?
ReplyDeletePlease note - I don't dry fire at all and a lot of my early experience was on a gun without a dry-lock and with a nasty habit of FTF or FTE if you loaded the mag beyond 5 or 6 rounds; but I only *had* the one mag for it, so if I needed to juice it, I had eject, load the mag, and insert. On my current pistol, the rule is no bang = no bangpill, and I am doing careful ejects so as not to lose my dry mag out onto the range floor. So, yeah...
*raises hand*
ReplyDeleteMe, too. I use my x-esse for cheap live fire training and load mags with five to ten rounds to practise deliberate and tactical reloads.
My main pistol is a Glock. Its trigger tells me when it's empty. Slide back = no trigger pushed forward. That and the difference in recoil.
I thought trigger reset was a sear thing (or something like that), not a Glock thing?
ReplyDeleteIn addition to downloading mags, inserting the occasional empty casing is another good way to spice things up and get you in the habit of staying alert. Add a timer for some pressure and you're all set for a productive range time.
This is why I just reload the gun when I'm done shooting whatever it is I'm shooting. Assuming for the moment that I'm shooting Production/L10 or IDPA, I'm limited to 10 bbs in the gun. So if I have 4 targets in a position, I'm going to reload after I shoot them, because I really want to be in the next position with a full gun. The only difference is that in IDPA I have to put my spare mag in my pocket.
ReplyDeleteNow, I've been told that what will happen in a gunfight is that I'll precisely double tap all my attackers and then get killed executing a reload with retention because GAMES R NOT GUNFIGHTS to which I say "hogwash".
Caleb, as much as I am part of the "Stone the Gamerfag Heretics!!!!eleventy!!" tribe in many respects, I seriously doubt that ANYONE who has lived through being precisely double tapped and watched his buddies get precisely double tapped in short splits, is going to react faster than you can reload and shoot him some more.
ReplyDelete{chuckle}
Grant -- I didn't miss the point. Let me quote your original post: Dry reps will not make the situation better, but rather will reinforce this behavior.
ReplyDeleteIf dry fire practice somehow reinforces a person's tendency to stare at the gun figuring out whether it needs to be reloaded, I would suggest that one's dry fire routine and/or brainstem is in need of serious fixing.
I'm not disagreeing with the point that the mechanics are only part of the equation, but I do disagree with the suggestion that working on those mechanics should take such a backseat. The difference between a technically correct reload and a haphazard one is often measured in whole seconds. So regardless of whether someone realizes the gun is empty in a microsecond or a microhour, at that point being able to get the problem fixed quickly, efficiently, and without fumbling -- especially under stress -- does seem like a worthwhile skill to have.
If someone's skill level is so low that he literally looks at the gun trying to figure out what's wrong when it's empty, or repeatedly presses the trigger after slidelock, the solution isn't to figure out which part of the reload stimulus to focus on. The solution is to get that person familiar with how a gun works and get some practice actually operating it properly.
Since reloading most firearms also clears almost every conceivable malfunction (at least the ones that you could realistically clear in time if time were a factor), then it is probably a good idea to just reload the gun whenever it fails to go BANG. This eliminates any delay caused by trying to figure which action to take in a stressful situation by simply replacing it with an ingrained response to stimuli. "Gun no go bang? Reload".
ReplyDeleteLame-R,
ReplyDeleteI would suggest not using empty cases in a mag if the gun uses an aluminum ramp, such as a Lightweight Colt. I suspect it could put divots in it with the edge of the brass. I'm certainly not willing to hazard any of mine to verify this.
I do it with my steel frame Officers, though. It always loads it into the chamber. It's never choked on anything that fits into the mag. Great gun, I just wish I had not done the beavertail grip safety.
Back in the day when Col. Cooper ran Orange Gunsite, firing your auto dry would cost you a case of beer. Reloading without being unable to shoot is one advantage of having an auto-loaded.
ReplyDeleteRichard Johnson
That would require round-counting in any sustained string of fire. Sure; when things go slack you should be topping off by changing magazines, but if I have a 16-round mag and 17 badguys, there's no advantage to dropping the mag at 15.
ReplyDeleteOTOH, something I saw in some mil-fic at one time or another (I want to say Clear and PResent Danger) was loading the last couple of rounds as tracer so it would sing the Halleluja Chorus to you when you're running dry. Figment of imagination or Mr. Clancy talking to high-speed low-drag types? (Event in question was 7th Inf (Light) vs bad guys)
Ian, having 3 tracers or so in the bottom of the magazine is standard operating procedure in many US units. Sort of tough to do with a handgun.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, I've seen more folks try to reload/insert their cell phones than stare at the empty pistol.
Al T.
I thought most everybody who practiced seriously would download random mags, as well as insert random empties and/or dummy rounds into the training mags.
ReplyDelete