What does DMTTofD stand for, anyway--Death Metal Target Training of Dancers? WTF was even going on there? And why did it take almost ten minutes to show it, whatever it was? (More to the point, why did I feel obliged to watch the whole thing?)
Not too sure what the second guy was trying to say either, other than "HSLD Operators Like Magpul", but the production values were a lot higher, the guys seemed to have a damn good handle on what they were doing and why, the video didn't drag on forever, and the music ruled. Much better overall. If it was advertising a school, I wouldn't mind knowing which one.
Please tell me that in the 1st vid the guy did NOT have his rfile pointed to the rear in one of his transitions (I know he did and in many schools that would be an automatic invite to depart the class).
I really, really hope that was a remore camera in the first video. It was frightening how often the camera got muzzled, hell, it was frightening how often those guys muzzled each other.
The second one has a lot of stuff that has been influenced by 3-gun shooting.
Love it or hate it from a (for lack of a better term) "tactical" standpoint, it demonstrates competence and confidence in basic manipulation and a lack of muzzling your fellow students that is more or less completely absent in the first video.
Why anyone would voluntarily wear a k-pot to gun school is a matter for another day. (Remember: Carbine class is like flypaper for mall ninjas... "Mall Ninja" does not automatically equal "Can't Shoot".)
I was simply amazed to see that NutriSystem includes guns now in its adds. They're really branching out now.
That WAS what the first video was about, wasn't it? I really can't be sure as didn't have the sound on and I couldn't possibly watch all of the first minute, never mind ten.
I must complain about the second vid, though. The intro shows a Garand being prepped, but no view of it being used on the line.
"k-pot to gun school" While I've had training that made me happy for the ballistic vest I had on, "supposedly" the second video was a bunch of military guys shooting, though not under .mil supervision. While the .mil is getting better, only the military can "F" up camping and shooting. :)
The first video reminds me of Cousin Lenny (who's mildly retarded) - he sort of gets "it", but not quite..
All you superior folks would be a lot more useful if you listed problems (like the painful muzzle discipline), rather than just the mall ninja comments.
I could not watch the full first vid, not sure if it was more than the slinging of ready to fire rifles or just unease about sweeping everything.
Why in nearly all videos are people ADVANCING on targets?
This is one of my primary problems with gun games and some so called "schools", they require you to run TO the threat. A more realistic scenario would have you engage two or three targets and then beat feet. The first person to run the obstacle course, after shooting two baddies, AND dial 911, wins.
Unless you are wearing a badge or carrying a .mil ID card, repeat after me, "I am NOT a mall ninja, I will NOT be a hero, I will NOT advance on a target, unless absolutely necessary. I WILL use my rifle to gain distance on my opponent and engage him from a safer distance. I will NOT engage a target unless absolutely necessary."
Jeebus, it's like a disease spreading around the world. Everyone gets a slam bang Mag-Pul'ed up AR and suddenly they forget everything they should have ever learned about fighting, namely GET the F*&K AWAY from the threat.
I am but an egg, but in the absence of any superior folk, what I'd offer are the following observations:
Video #1 demonstrated a lack of awareness of basic muzzle discipline coupled with bizarre things like jogging towards the target before stopping and engaging it with the pistol from the halt (rather than opening the distance and employing cover or movement) and, most importantly to my eyes, just generally sloppy and hesitant gun handling.
Wow, that was a blast from the past. Ralph Severe from the first video is very well known in the martial arts community for being a B.S. artist. We used to mock his terrible martial arts videos back in 2004.
Tam, I was just going to nod in agrement with "bizarre things like jogging towards the target before stopping and engaging it with the pistol from the halt" and then toddle off to bed. But then a stray thought occured. What we witnessed was an almost direct contradiction of "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down". I mean that they seem to be using their rifle to fight their way into pistol range.
Ps. For the pre-egg among us could someone please define K-pot and fritz?
In the second video, check out the reload at 0:43. Assesses the chamber, uses the inertia of the gun's turn to clear the magazine and reloads positively from the belt. God bless 3-gun.
Revolver Bob, there is some truth to what you say. But then too, there's a lot to be said for going forth and eliminating the problem. I am a cop, so I think in terms of running at the threat. But even were I not, the thought of running away from an active shooter is hard to fathom. Every shot fired can be thought of as another person you heard die.
In an ambush, charging the enemy is considered the appropriate response.
If you train as if to aggress the target, you can overcome the natural reaction to run like hell. When the time comes, running like hell will not require training; we can do that, automatically. ;)
It's like when I got taught active shooter training with a pistol. I asked about why we weren't using long guns, and the instructor pointed out that if we got the concept (indoor movement, muzzle discipline in tight teams) with pistols, it would be a snap with a long gun. [shrug] Made some sense, actually.
Yep, #2 beats #1 by a mile, but #2 beats what the Navy was teaching us in the '70's by a light year. Loved that "Lets get you ready for Camp Perry" training we got. Thank God we were lucky enough (some times) to have some old Nam era instructors run us through our quals. Should have seen the look on the XO's face when the Marine Gunny on Guam told us we had to use TWO hands and shoot from KNEELING if we wanted to pass on HIS range! When he said "But Gunnery Sergeant, the Correct way is to turn sideways to the target and use one hand, like they taught us at the Academy", the Gunny said "Well, Sir, with all due respect, we kneel on MY range to simulate shooting from behind cover, and we use two hands so we have a steadier hold so that we can hit our target. I learned that at MY time in MY Academy, which was Hue in 1968 during the TET Offensive". The XO never said another word all day, and got his freshly starched khakis just as dirty as the rest of us. P.S. The same Gunny figured out that I was Cross Dominate (right handed/left eyed) which no other instructor ever caught before, and showed me how to shoot the right way for me.
As another "egg" (not even fertilized yet), it seems to me that we should train to move and shoot in EVERY direction.
I am unable to predict where the threat will occur and in which direction safety may lie as well as the appropriate tactic to employ. Therefore, shouldn't I be prepared to move (and possibly shoot) in each direction, with either hand and be well versed in both attack/counterattack and retreat tactics?
That said, I hope I am able to do so a little more briskly and competently than the guys in the first video.
I wish the first video had an inset of the target being shot. Judging how wobbly the muzzles were and watching those triggers get slapped, I'd be willing to pay Ralph $5 for each hit if he paid me $1 for each bang. I bet I'd be able to buy a pretty fancy steak dinner.
Charging an ambush is not what is meant by the "immediate, positive, and offensive action" that is taught in Infantry School. The immediate, positive, and offensive action that is to be taken is back along the way that you came, hopefully to break through before the door can be slammed shut behind you.
If the ambushers know what they are doing, charging towards them just gets you into more overlapping fire.
Aside from the waving of a (apparently) loaded rifle at everything, just terrible drills. A good drill has a point and is based on a principle. Vid one seems to have a series of drills with no forethought and wildly varying technique. Couple of examples - the heavy guy shoots to slide lock with no effort to reload, another time he assesses the empty Glock like it's an AR (WTF?), yet another time he does a speed reload. No rhyme or reason there.
Note the multiple poorly thought out versions of transitioning from rifle to handgun. The "spinning Cossack" method of throwing the rifle over your shoulder so you can both flag your neighbors and remove your most powerful weapon from the fight is a good indicator of "asshattery" at work.
Z Z Tops lawyers should be contacting Ralph about stealing their moves from most of their videos. Does it get any better after the four minute mark? With my add, it all was a repetitive blur with me laughing too much to watch it all, every time they spun those AK's in unison and then looked left and right in unison!
I gave up when they actually called it, without irony, 'high speed low drag'.
Video #2 was delightful, and I think I know what I was seeing happen most of the time.
Interestingly, there appeared to be a lot of the 'supporting arm as far forward as possible' technique that's...currently fashionable? A better practice? Something else?
Noah D, from the land of bog-standard M4gery, Mossberg 500 and RIA .45s. :)
I'm still trying to figure out the point of transitioning from rifle to pistol and back to rifle. From right handed to left handed to right handed. Charging a target while shooting your pistol to slide lock.
As for "Opie" being all "fritz'd up"--WTF? He has IR US Flags on his k-pot? I know I've been retired for just shy a decade, but that looks... flaky. (If he was a real operator, they wouldn't have been allowed to use his picture...)
I too am but an egg. But slingling a loaded functional long gun, shooting one or two shots of pistol, then going back to the long gun? If it's broken or empty, throw it away and move to pistol. If it ain't, don't.
On the other hand, maybe we need synchronised gun ballet as a new olympic sport.
There was a moment there though when I caught one of the shooters standing straight up to change mags and wondered... why? Must have been a damned good reason to break concealment that severely, you know? One can hope.
Video #1... I started it, clicked about ~2:50 in, watched about 10 seconds of a guy doing what must have been the slowest pistol draw and fire on 3 (unseen) targets I've seen, and decided I trust you that the wrongness seeped in and I'd rather use my limited time to comment than watch the whole thing.
Re charging a target: if the attacker is threatening one of your loved ones at close range, and shooting the attacker is the appropriate response, then quickly closing distance improves your ability to hit the attacker with less opportunity for your round to go astray and hit the loved one. (Aim well but take every advantage you can!) Further, closing distance means you can grab the loved one as appropriate and get them moving toward safety.
That's just one very specific scenario, not a general rule... but it illustrates some reasons you should be able to shoot while moving toward a target just as well and just as effectively as you can while moving away from it.
Ok, I've never taken a shooting class before, except for what the Germany army calls 'shooting training' and even there I didn't learn much (new). But even to me the second video looks so much more professional, like, hey, you could probably ambush the guys in vid #1 with a cup of coffee...
If they are taking live fire video then it is prob. easier to safely video if the shooters are advancing towards the targets.
Some classes have you moving in a big square around 55 gal bbls just to teach and practice the concepts of shooting, reloading and malfunction reduction while under constant movement.
RE: revolver bob's comment.
The trick of training is taking a class geared for your needs. Some people who use guns for a living need to learn to advance under fire. Citizens in self defense situations may be better served retreating under fire. From the jury box citizens are always better served by being able to show retreat & withdrawal behavior.
The best classes are geared towards the needs of the attendees. Being one of a few non-LE citizens in a class filled with the local LE isn't such a privilege as the uninitiated might think. Citizens do not possess limited immunity nor the special citizen class frequently afforded LE by the judicial system. A non-LE citizen is legally required to deal with trouble in totally different ways than LE. In the event of an active shooter in my family or friends vicinity, I hope all will disregard such advice and deal with the situation quickly.
I'm not a gun guy, but am a rather serious martial artist, and I know that almost everything is more efficient when you keep your elbows close to your body, as they do in vid #2 compared to #1.
I love that second video!
ReplyDeleteBetter use of music, too.
ReplyDeleteWell, the production values of the second one are better. I couldn't bring myself to sit through the almost 10 minutes of the first one.
ReplyDeleteWhat does DMTTofD stand for, anyway--Death Metal Target Training of Dancers? WTF was even going on there? And why did it take almost ten minutes to show it, whatever it was? (More to the point, why did I feel obliged to watch the whole thing?)
ReplyDeleteNot too sure what the second guy was trying to say either, other than "HSLD Operators Like Magpul", but the production values were a lot higher, the guys seemed to have a damn good handle on what they were doing and why, the video didn't drag on forever, and the music ruled. Much better overall. If it was advertising a school, I wouldn't mind knowing which one.
Please tell me that in the 1st vid the guy did NOT have his rfile pointed to the rear in one of his transitions (I know he did and in many schools that would be an automatic invite to depart the class).
ReplyDeletewell, they both get points for soundtracks.
ReplyDelete-SayUncle
I really, really hope that was a remore camera in the first video. It was frightening how often the camera got muzzled, hell, it was frightening how often those guys muzzled each other.
ReplyDeleteNeither video really gave me a warm'n'fuzzy about what sort of techniques were being taught.
ReplyDeleteAM,
ReplyDeleteThe second one has a lot of stuff that has been influenced by 3-gun shooting.
Love it or hate it from a (for lack of a better term) "tactical" standpoint, it demonstrates competence and confidence in basic manipulation and a lack of muzzling your fellow students that is more or less completely absent in the first video.
Why anyone would voluntarily wear a k-pot to gun school is a matter for another day. (Remember: Carbine class is like flypaper for mall ninjas... "Mall Ninja" does not automatically equal "Can't Shoot".)
I was simply amazed to see that NutriSystem includes guns now in its adds. They're really branching out now.
ReplyDeleteThat WAS what the first video was about, wasn't it? I really can't be sure as didn't have the sound on and I couldn't possibly watch all of the first minute, never mind ten.
I must complain about the second vid, though. The intro shows a Garand being prepped, but no view of it being used on the line.
"k-pot to gun school" While I've had training that made me happy for the ballistic vest I had on, "supposedly" the second video was a bunch of military guys shooting, though not under .mil supervision. While the .mil is getting better, only the military can "F" up camping and shooting. :)
ReplyDeleteThe first video reminds me of Cousin Lenny (who's mildly retarded) - he sort of gets "it", but not quite..
Al T.
All you superior folks would be a lot more useful if you listed problems (like the painful muzzle discipline), rather than just the mall ninja comments.
ReplyDeleteI could not watch the full first vid, not sure if it was more than the slinging of ready to fire rifles or just unease about sweeping everything.
What bad shit went down?
O.K., I'll admit the Asian-American kids can run the guns, but someone tell me why Opie, who is obviously no slouch, has a Fritz on?
ReplyDeleteCarbines are just magnets for mall ninjaism. Part of dreads the upcoming class.
Shootin' Buddy
SB,
ReplyDeleteRead the comments two and four up[stream from yours.
Why in nearly all videos are people ADVANCING on targets?
ReplyDeleteThis is one of my primary problems with gun games and some so called "schools", they require you to run TO the threat. A more realistic scenario would have you engage two or three targets and then beat feet. The first person to run the obstacle course, after shooting two baddies, AND dial 911, wins.
Unless you are wearing a badge or carrying a .mil ID card, repeat after me, "I am NOT a mall ninja, I will NOT be a hero, I will NOT advance on a target, unless absolutely necessary. I WILL use my rifle to gain distance on my opponent and engage him from a safer distance. I will NOT engage a target unless absolutely necessary."
Jeebus, it's like a disease spreading around the world. Everyone gets a slam bang Mag-Pul'ed up AR and suddenly they forget everything they should have ever learned about fighting, namely GET the F*&K AWAY from the threat.
-Rob
Anon 9:47,
ReplyDeleteI am but an egg, but in the absence of any superior folk, what I'd offer are the following observations:
Video #1 demonstrated a lack of awareness of basic muzzle discipline coupled with bizarre things like jogging towards the target before stopping and engaging it with the pistol from the halt (rather than opening the distance and employing cover or movement) and, most importantly to my eyes, just generally sloppy and hesitant gun handling.
Wow, that was a blast from the past.
ReplyDeleteRalph Severe from the first video is very well known in the martial arts community for being a B.S. artist.
We used to mock his terrible martial arts videos back in 2004.
http://www.bullshido.org/w/index.php?title=Ralph_Severe
Tam,
ReplyDeleteI was just going to nod in agrement with "bizarre things like jogging towards the target before stopping and engaging it with the pistol from the halt" and then toddle off to bed. But then a stray thought occured. What we witnessed was an almost direct contradiction of "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down". I mean that they seem to be using their rifle to fight their way into pistol range.
Ps. For the pre-egg among us could someone please define K-pot and fritz?
So, Opie is a doggie? He just likes shooting with his Fritz on a hot, sunny day?
ReplyDeleteWell, O.K., I know some guys like wearing their service gear while shooting (my Uncle was that way).
Wearing that portable furnace about seeming like a strange idea, but each to his own.
Shootin' Buddy
In the second video, check out the reload at 0:43. Assesses the chamber, uses the inertia of the gun's turn to clear the magazine and reloads positively from the belt. God bless 3-gun.
ReplyDeleteRevolver Bob, there is some truth to what you say. But then too, there's a lot to be said for going forth and eliminating the problem. I am a cop, so I think in terms of running at the threat. But even were I not, the thought of running away from an active shooter is hard to fathom. Every shot fired can be thought of as another person you heard die.
ReplyDeleteIn an ambush, charging the enemy is considered the appropriate response.
If you train as if to aggress the target, you can overcome the natural reaction to run like hell. When the time comes, running like hell will not require training; we can do that, automatically. ;)
It's like when I got taught active shooter training with a pistol. I asked about why we weren't using long guns, and the instructor pointed out that if we got the concept (indoor movement, muzzle discipline in tight teams) with pistols, it would be a snap with a long gun. [shrug] Made some sense, actually.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteTrue enough, given a certain set of circumstances.
(Of course, "Aggress the target" != "Waddle sedately towards the target; halt; fire off a round or two from the pistol." ;) )
Anon 10:44
"K-pot" or "fritz hat" is slang for the kevlar helmet that drops low over the ears.
I enjoyed the deployment from the "assault pickup." With the rifles deployed from the "lap position."
ReplyDeleteI live in Texas. Where the heck is "Far East Texas"? Houston?
Yep, #2 beats #1 by a mile, but #2 beats what the Navy was teaching us in the '70's by a light year. Loved that "Lets get you ready for Camp Perry" training we got. Thank God we were lucky enough (some times) to have some old Nam era instructors run us through our quals. Should have seen the look on the XO's face when the Marine Gunny on Guam told us we had to use TWO hands and shoot from KNEELING if we wanted to pass on HIS range! When he said "But Gunnery Sergeant, the Correct way is to turn sideways to the target and use one hand, like they taught us at the Academy", the Gunny said "Well, Sir, with all due respect, we kneel on MY range to simulate shooting from behind cover, and we use two hands so we have a steadier hold so that we can hit our target. I learned that at MY time in MY Academy, which was Hue in 1968 during the TET Offensive". The XO never said another word all day, and got his freshly starched khakis just as dirty as the rest of us. P.S. The same Gunny figured out that I was Cross Dominate (right handed/left eyed) which no other instructor ever caught before, and showed me how to shoot the right way for me.
ReplyDeleteI bet Ralph has a really cool man cave... er HQ.
ReplyDeleteBest,
McVee
INRE: Matt G & Revolver Bob's comments:
ReplyDeleteAs another "egg" (not even fertilized yet), it seems to me that we should train to move and shoot in EVERY direction.
I am unable to predict where the threat will occur and in which direction safety may lie as well as the appropriate tactic to employ. Therefore, shouldn't I be prepared to move (and possibly shoot) in each direction, with either hand and be well versed in both attack/counterattack and retreat tactics?
That said, I hope I am able to do so a little more briskly and competently than the guys in the first video.
I wish the first video had an inset of the target being shot. Judging how wobbly the muzzles were and watching those triggers get slapped, I'd be willing to pay Ralph $5 for each hit if he paid me $1 for each bang. I bet I'd be able to buy a pretty fancy steak dinner.
Keith
Hey Matt G:
ReplyDeleteCharging an ambush is not what is meant by the "immediate, positive, and offensive action" that is taught in Infantry School. The immediate, positive, and offensive action that is to be taken is back along the way that you came, hopefully to break through before the door can be slammed shut behind you.
If the ambushers know what they are doing, charging towards them just gets you into more overlapping fire.
"What bad shit went down?"
ReplyDeleteAside from the waving of a (apparently) loaded rifle at everything, just terrible drills. A good drill has a point and is based on a principle. Vid one seems to have a series of drills with no forethought and wildly varying technique. Couple of examples - the heavy guy shoots to slide lock with no effort to reload, another time he assesses the empty Glock like it's an AR (WTF?), yet another time he does a speed reload. No rhyme or reason there.
Note the multiple poorly thought out versions of transitioning from rifle to handgun. The "spinning Cossack" method of throwing the rifle over your shoulder so you can both flag your neighbors and remove your most powerful weapon from the fight is a good indicator of "asshattery" at work.
Al T.
I understand that there is a skill in determining whether it is a "close" or "far" ambush, and which one it is determines appropriate response.
ReplyDeleteWV: thprice - if you misjudge your response, you pay thprice
Z Z Tops lawyers should be contacting Ralph about stealing their moves from most of their videos.
ReplyDeleteDoes it get any better after the four minute mark?
With my add, it all was a repetitive blur with me laughing too much to watch it all, every time they spun those AK's in unison and then looked left and right in unison!
All that awesomeness, and not a single "combat roll". Well, except for his gut...
ReplyDeleteI gave up when they actually called it, without irony, 'high speed low drag'.
ReplyDeleteVideo #2 was delightful, and I think I know what I was seeing happen most of the time.
Interestingly, there appeared to be a lot of the 'supporting arm as far forward as possible' technique that's...currently fashionable? A better practice? Something else?
Noah D, from the land of bog-standard M4gery, Mossberg 500 and RIA .45s. :)
I'm still trying to figure out the point of transitioning from rifle to pistol and back to rifle. From right handed to left handed to right handed. Charging a target while shooting your pistol to slide lock.
ReplyDeleteAs for "Opie" being all "fritz'd up"--WTF? He has IR US Flags on his k-pot? I know I've been retired for just shy a decade, but that looks... flaky. (If he was a real operator, they wouldn't have been allowed to use his picture...)
WV: culte. As Professor Reynolds would say, Heh.
I too am but an egg. But slingling a loaded functional long gun, shooting one or two shots of pistol, then going back to the long gun? If it's broken or empty, throw it away and move to pistol. If it ain't, don't.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, maybe we need synchronised gun ballet as a new olympic sport.
Video #2 is full of win.
ReplyDeleteThere was a moment there though when I caught one of the shooters standing straight up to change mags and wondered... why? Must have been a damned good reason to break concealment that severely, you know? One can hope.
Video #1... I started it, clicked about ~2:50 in, watched about 10 seconds of a guy doing what must have been the slowest pistol draw and fire on 3 (unseen) targets I've seen, and decided I trust you that the wrongness seeped in and I'd rather use my limited time to comment than watch the whole thing.
Re charging a target: if the attacker is threatening one of your loved ones at close range, and shooting the attacker is the appropriate response, then quickly closing distance improves your ability to hit the attacker with less opportunity for your round to go astray and hit the loved one. (Aim well but take every advantage you can!) Further, closing distance means you can grab the loved one as appropriate and get them moving toward safety.
ReplyDeleteThat's just one very specific scenario, not a general rule... but it illustrates some reasons you should be able to shoot while moving toward a target just as well and just as effectively as you can while moving away from it.
Ok, I've never taken a shooting class before, except for what the Germany army calls 'shooting training' and even there I didn't learn much (new). But even to me the second video looks so much more professional, like, hey, you could probably ambush the guys in vid #1 with a cup of coffee...
ReplyDeleteI gave up on vid 1 with the "shoot one left handed, shoot one right handed" thing. That really confused me.
ReplyDeleteUnless they were training for Olympic Synchronized Rifle, in which case it works...
If they are taking live fire video then it is prob. easier to safely video if the shooters are advancing towards the targets.
ReplyDeleteSome classes have you moving in a big square around 55 gal bbls just to teach and practice
the concepts of shooting, reloading and malfunction reduction while under constant movement.
RE: revolver bob's comment.
The trick of training is taking a class geared for your needs.
Some people who use guns for a living need to learn to advance under fire.
Citizens in self defense situations may be better served retreating under fire. From the jury box citizens are always better served by being able to show retreat & withdrawal behavior.
The best classes are geared towards the needs of the attendees.
Being one of a few non-LE citizens in a class filled with the local LE isn't such a privilege as the uninitiated might think.
Citizens do not possess limited immunity nor the special citizen class frequently afforded LE by the judicial system.
A non-LE citizen is legally required to deal with trouble in totally different ways than LE.
In the event of an active shooter in my family or friends vicinity, I hope all will disregard such advice and deal with the situation quickly.
I'm not a gun guy, but am a rather serious martial artist, and I know that almost everything is more efficient when you keep your elbows close to your body, as they do in vid #2 compared to #1.
ReplyDelete