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Tuesday, January 18, 2011
A sad commentary on the industry...
I made this comment in another post, but I figure it deserved its own:
If you wanted to, you could design a centerfire gun that would crumble to dust after the 500th round was fired and maybe one in ten owners would ever find out about it (and the other nine would call them "bashers"...)
Sounds a lot like most of the cars GM and Chrysler made in the last 30 years. Anyone remember the phrase "Planned Obsolescence"? Or most of the electronic gadgets made today.
Read in the internet somewhere (so it must be true!) that the majority of guns sold as used coming from someone that bought a gun for the sake of having a gun have an average of 15 rounds through them.
Accurate or not some people don't buy guns to shoot them.
This is starting to sound like the Drake Equation. Of the 800 million guns in the U.S. it all boils down to you and me being the only intelligent life. *snort*
Ow, that hurts. In my defense, I used to put shovelfuls of rounds through my SP-101, back when it was my only center fire handgun. And, I loved to zip through 30 round mags with my buddy's AK. That was before wife-kids-mortgage-bills-volunteer at church-soccer practice-etc. Harumph. Glad you find time to shoot so often, snarky-pants. I am guilty of quickly gravitating to the 22LR can of ammo every time I do get a chance to shoot. When squirrels attack, boy am I ready.
I don't currently own any 10mm handguns, if that's what you mean. Someday I might buy or build another 10mm 1911, or see a deal on a S&W 10xx that's just too good to pass up, but I don't have any burning need to run out and get one.
I see your point. If I ever let go of my 1076, I'll let you have first crack. I love the 10MM. Ammo is not that hard to find if one is willing to look and prices are ok if you buy in bulk.
More often than not, I am carrying a SA TRP. That will change when my SA Professional comes in. But I just can't get rid of my Delta Elite or my SA Linkless 10mm.
Having some recent experience of that whole crumble to dust effect, I do wonder if there is any actual documented evidence of the general claim, "90% of gun owners never shoot their weapon more than X number of rounds total" (for the sake of discussion stipulate the number at 500 per Tam's example)? Such a claim strikes me as being more than a little hyperbolic, but I'm willing to be convinced.
As to the whole "planned obselescence" charge in the gun world?
No.
Certainly there are numerous examples of poorly manufactured products to select among, but I'm unaware of very many that were intended to be so which is a necessary precurrsor to the "planned" part of the charge being levieed.
Someone may in fact be out to get us all, but let's at least try not to roll around in the paranoia schiesse.
I don't know that such a study would be possible, but if it were, I'd feel pretty confident laying a wager on its findings.
And you're absolutely right about the "planned obsolescence" thing.
I'll note, however, that the low volume of the average shooter goes a way to explaining how some lower-end manufacturers can feel confident offering lifetime warranties. Someone who balks at the price of a $300 pistol is unlikely to run $5000 worth of ammunition through it.
The only count that I have on my guns is round counts from mandatory qualifications, classes, and matches. On average, I can figure 75 rounds shot to prep for each.
I don't keep log books. I just shoot until they fall apart, like 99% of the other shooters out there.
But even my bitty mouse guns have more than 500 rounds, documented. :)
If you shoot a 50 round box of ammo through your pistol once a month you will use 600 rounds a year.
If you shoot 50 rounds a week you will launch 2,600 pills of happiness downrange every year.
But just because you own a gun does not mean you are a shooter. Just like owning a computer doesn't make you a hacker, or owning a college degree doesn't make you educated.
And I can understand people keeping the round counts low on center fire, but personally I've gone through enough "bulk packs" of rim fire ammo to keep my skills up.
The generally accepted number in the gun industry, based on various surveys of gun-buyers over the years, is that on average, a handgun purchased in the United States will be fired less than 50 times. For every internet poster who own ten guns that have each been fired 1,000 times, there are dozens and dozens of people who walked into a gun shop, purchased a pistol and a box of ammo, and never once took that gun to a range. Those people, obviously, don't read and post on forums and gun blogs.
Ask anyone who's worked at a gun shop and I guarantee they've had customers complain about having to buy A WHOLE BOX of ammo when the gun only holds 15 (or 8, or whatever).
When I worked at SIG, there was serious discussion about producing a pistol that came PRE LOADED with 15rd in a non-removable mag. The gun could be made of very cheap material because it only had to survive 15 rounds of fire. It was rejected on technical capability grounds, not because there would be a lack of demand.
Heck, look at the average of my own guns: I have a handful that get the guts pounded out of them on a regular basis, and then I have dozens and dozens that get shot very rarely, if at all.
Tam: Some of your guns are very very sad. They need a little love. I would be willing to sacrifice my own time to be a mentor to some of your guns and take them outside to play. Think of the children... er guns!
Hell, I don't make it to the range on anything like a once-a-month basis, and own one handgun. It's had more than 500 rounds through it, though. Not officially logged, but I kill at least 2 50-round boxes a session, and more usually 4. It's easy to keep track of when idiocy forces me to use 10-round magazines... When I do go, I make an afternoon of it.
My wife's P22, OTOH... She doesn't go with me every time, and doesn't enjoy the loading of magazines much.
ToddG said... {snip} Ask anyone who's worked at a gun shop and I guarantee they've had customers complain about having to buy A WHOLE BOX of ammo when the gun only holds 15 (or 8, or whatever).
Oh, Hell, yes. I've also seen two guys buy two used Model 10's and ONE box of wadcutters to split, because it was the cheapest on the shelf, and one moron said to the other, "Dude! This is the stuff we want! That flat tip will rip a dude up!"
I know someone who wanted to buy 1 round of .22lr, on the grounds that he had one groundhog to deal with. AFAIK he only used the one round, so at least he had justification.
WV: dingo. I think you need more than one round of .22lr to deal with that...
I have to agree with Tam's last comments. I have my favorites that are all at or aproaching over 10,000 rounds fired and then a group that have never been fired.
I also have a group that I have not made my mind up on. I don't really decide on a gun till I have shot at least 1,000 rnds down it and then if I am not sure till I ahve shot at least 5,000. Once I get it there, I either really like it and it heads on toward 10,000 or I sell it off.
And the Bradys would howl that "nobody needs a gun that fires more than 499 times!"
ReplyDeleteSounds a lot like most of the cars GM and Chrysler made in the last 30 years. Anyone remember the phrase "Planned Obsolescence"? Or most of the electronic gadgets made today.
ReplyDeleteRead in the internet somewhere (so it must be true!) that the majority of guns sold as used coming from someone that bought a gun for the sake of having a gun have an average of 15 rounds through them.
ReplyDeleteAccurate or not some people don't buy guns to shoot them.
Violentindifference,
ReplyDelete...and most people who do shoot them don't shoot them all that much.
...and most people have vastly inflated ideas about how many rounds they've put through their own guns, unless they actually keep a logbook.
Few that shoot keep a log book. (I do.)
ReplyDeleteThis is starting to sound like the Drake Equation. Of the 800 million guns in the U.S. it all boils down to you and me being the only intelligent life. *snort*
Ow, that hurts. In my defense, I used to put shovelfuls of rounds through my SP-101, back when it was my only center fire handgun. And, I loved to zip through 30 round mags with my buddy's AK. That was before wife-kids-mortgage-bills-volunteer at church-soccer practice-etc. Harumph. Glad you find time to shoot so often, snarky-pants.
ReplyDeleteI am guilty of quickly gravitating to the 22LR can of ammo every time I do get a chance to shoot. When squirrels attack, boy am I ready.
500 rounds?
ReplyDeleteThat seems an awful lot of rounds for a Jennings/Bryco/Davis/Lorcin/HiPoint. :-)
Oh, and looking up at my ammo shelf, I see a 50 round box of .357 JHP from my "SP-101 and only" days, the sticker on it says $6.95, there you go.
ReplyDeleteTam
ReplyDeleteYou haven't abandoned the 10mm have you?
DM
DM,
ReplyDeleteI don't currently own any 10mm handguns, if that's what you mean. Someday I might buy or build another 10mm 1911, or see a deal on a S&W 10xx that's just too good to pass up, but I don't have any burning need to run out and get one.
I see your point. If I ever let go of my 1076, I'll let you have first crack. I love the 10MM. Ammo is not that hard to find if one is willing to look and prices are ok if you buy in bulk.
ReplyDeleteMore often than not, I am carrying a SA TRP. That will change when my SA Professional comes in. But I just can't get rid of my Delta Elite or my SA Linkless 10mm.
DM
Didn't Jennings/Bryco and RG Industries already achieve that within the first 10 rounds fired?
ReplyDeleteMy "family heirloom" RG revolver was good for at least 15 rounds before the cyl stopped indexing
ReplyDeleteA friend once showed me a handgun that had been made in Morton Grove, Ill. It didn't work reliably, he said.
ReplyDeleteGo figure
The L.E.S. Rogak.
ReplyDeleteHaving some recent experience of that whole crumble to dust effect, I do wonder if there is any actual documented evidence of the general claim, "90% of gun owners never shoot their weapon more than X number of rounds total" (for the sake of discussion stipulate the number at 500 per Tam's example)? Such a claim strikes me as being more than a little hyperbolic, but I'm willing to be convinced.
ReplyDeleteAs to the whole "planned obselescence" charge in the gun world?
No.
Certainly there are numerous examples of poorly manufactured products to select among, but I'm unaware of very many that were intended to be so which is a necessary precurrsor to the "planned" part of the charge being levieed.
Someone may in fact be out to get us all, but let's at least try not to roll around in the paranoia schiesse.
Will Brown,
ReplyDeleteI don't know that such a study would be possible, but if it were, I'd feel pretty confident laying a wager on its findings.
And you're absolutely right about the "planned obsolescence" thing.
I'll note, however, that the low volume of the average shooter goes a way to explaining how some lower-end manufacturers can feel confident offering lifetime warranties. Someone who balks at the price of a $300 pistol is unlikely to run $5000 worth of ammunition through it.
The only count that I have on my guns is round counts from mandatory qualifications, classes, and matches. On average, I can figure 75 rounds shot to prep for each.
ReplyDeleteI don't keep log books. I just shoot until they fall apart, like 99% of the other shooters out there.
But even my bitty mouse guns have more than 500 rounds, documented. :)
Skyy. 200 rounds or less.
ReplyDeleteAnd you were there to witness that debacle.
If you shoot a 50 round box of ammo through your pistol once a month you will use 600 rounds a year.
ReplyDeleteIf you shoot 50 rounds a week you will launch 2,600 pills of happiness downrange every year.
But just because you own a gun does not mean you are a shooter. Just like owning a computer doesn't make you a hacker, or owning a college degree doesn't make you educated.
And I can understand people keeping the round counts low on center fire, but personally I've gone through enough "bulk packs" of rim fire ammo to keep my skills up.
The generally accepted number in the gun industry, based on various surveys of gun-buyers over the years, is that on average, a handgun purchased in the United States will be fired less than 50 times. For every internet poster who own ten guns that have each been fired 1,000 times, there are dozens and dozens of people who walked into a gun shop, purchased a pistol and a box of ammo, and never once took that gun to a range. Those people, obviously, don't read and post on forums and gun blogs.
ReplyDeleteAsk anyone who's worked at a gun shop and I guarantee they've had customers complain about having to buy A WHOLE BOX of ammo when the gun only holds 15 (or 8, or whatever).
When I worked at SIG, there was serious discussion about producing a pistol that came PRE LOADED with 15rd in a non-removable mag. The gun could be made of very cheap material because it only had to survive 15 rounds of fire. It was rejected on technical capability grounds, not because there would be a lack of demand.
Heck, look at the average of my own guns: I have a handful that get the guts pounded out of them on a regular basis, and then I have dozens and dozens that get shot very rarely, if at all.
ReplyDeleteTam: Some of your guns are very very sad. They need a little love. I would be willing to sacrifice my own time to be a mentor to some of your guns and take them outside to play. Think of the children... er guns!
ReplyDeleteHell, I don't make it to the range on anything like a once-a-month basis, and own one handgun. It's had more than 500 rounds through it, though. Not officially logged, but I kill at least 2 50-round boxes a session, and more usually 4. It's easy to keep track of when idiocy forces me to use 10-round magazines... When I do go, I make an afternoon of it.
ReplyDeleteMy wife's P22, OTOH... She doesn't go with me every time, and doesn't enjoy the loading of magazines much.
ViolentIndifference,
ReplyDeleteIf you can find some .41 Swiss Rimfire, I'll be happy to let you take the Vetterli to the range. ;)
ToddG said...
ReplyDelete{snip}
Ask anyone who's worked at a gun shop and I guarantee they've had customers complain about having to buy A WHOLE BOX of ammo when the gun only holds 15 (or 8, or whatever).
Oh, Hell, yes. I've also seen two guys buy two used Model 10's and ONE box of wadcutters to split, because it was the cheapest on the shelf, and one moron said to the other, "Dude! This is the stuff we want! That flat tip will rip a dude up!"
I know someone who wanted to buy 1 round of .22lr, on the grounds that he had one groundhog to deal with. AFAIK he only used the one round, so at least he had justification.
ReplyDeleteWV: dingo. I think you need more than one round of .22lr to deal with that...
I have to agree with Tam's last comments. I have my favorites that are all at or aproaching over 10,000 rounds fired and then a group that have never been fired.
ReplyDeleteI also have a group that I have not made my mind up on. I don't really decide on a gun till I have shot at least 1,000 rnds down it and then if I am not sure till I ahve shot at least 5,000. Once I get it there, I either really like it and it heads on toward 10,000 or I sell it off.