Colt's little M1903 pocket pistol field-strips pretty easily, no tools required. There's even a handy arrow etched on the slide showing you exactly how far back to withdraw it to take the piece down.
Elbert Searle's Savage pocket pistol is similarly simple, at least as regards field-stripping, while the H&R is a little more complex, requiring a tool like a screwdriver (although the lip of the magazine floorplate is shaped for this) to pop down on the trigger guard while you're holding your mouth just right...
The Remington, on the other hand...
"Don't try taking it apart 'til you come down here," said Gunsmith Bob over the phone, and not in a "Ha-ha, get it? It's complicated," way, but in a "No, really, I'm serious: don't," sort of tone.
See, what you do is you push the muzzle against something hard, causing the slide and barrel to retract a bit and then use a small screwdriver to poke and pry the slide stop out. Then you retract the slide a bit again, by itself this time, and pull forward on the barrel, using the grooved ring.
And then nothing happens. So you pull a little more while holding your mouth different, maybe with your tongue out the corner so the gun knows you're concentrating. And there's a sort of *click* but nothing else. This is the part where the NRA Manual says the slide should come off, so you say "Shannon, what am I doing wrong?" and hand him the gun. Then Shannon, who can crack walnuts without the aid of a nutcracker, tugs at the barrel a bit with no result before hucking it up in the padded jaws of a bench vise...
This is not something you want to be doing around the campfire.
"No wonder it wouldn't come apart," says Shannon, "this thing's drier than a popcorn fart," and hands it to you in two parts, frame and slide. As you examine the underside of the slide, looking at the interplay between the barrel, the moving breechblock, and the very serious-looking recoil spring, wound concentrically around the barrel and of a size and thickness more usually seen pulling screen doors to, the whole assemblage wobbling under very obvious spring tension, Shannon mutters over his shoulder "...and be careful in there, those things'll pinch up a blood blister."
So you decide to just oil it up and reassemble it without further disassembly while listening to Shannon tell about the guy who got the bolt out of his Remington 742 by prying the receiver open until it dropped out the magazine well, and then brought it in to see if it could be fixed.
I'll take it apart next time.
Smart move Tam :-) some things are just better left assembled... or start carrying a pocket vice!
ReplyDeleteBased solely on your description of the weapon's complexity and the manufacturer thereof, I guessed that this was one of Mr. Pedersen's designs.
ReplyDeleteA friend once brought me a Nylon 66 (Remington, are you sensing a theme?) that he had disassembled to "clean". During my research for an exploded diagram online, I found out that a couple of gunsmithing schools actually used the '66 as a final exam. The candidates for graduation were handed a box O' Parts and a timer was begun. No diagram was shown or given to the students. From my experience, I'd say it was a damned tough test.
I did get that handy little plastic rifle back together, but it wasn't easy and I wouldn't have passed the timed portion of the test.
The morals I learned? Some things are best left to the professionals. Don't EVER force it.
Heh. I was just about to mention the Nylon 66 (which, really, requires a third hand to reassemble) but TxRed beat me to it.
ReplyDeleteTook mine apart to give it a thorough cleaning once.
Once.
It comes apart pretty easy. Deceptively easy. Then, once everything's cleaned up and freshly oiled, you try - TRY - to get it back together.
Then you look online.
And what you find is acres of forum posts saying "HELP I TOOK MY NYLON 66 APART AND CAN'T GET IT BACK TOGETHER" followed by pages upon pages of "YOU FOOL!" and "Bring it to a smith, NOOB"...
I got it back together, eventually, using a wall in the kitchen as the third hand.
And when I say "eventually", I mean it sat in the safe in a large plastic bag for three years before the scars - both physical and emotional - healed sufficiently to try a second time...
NEVER NEVER take the bolt on a Portugues Mauser the Vergueiro model apart,when i worked in a firearms dealers he had on of those and asked me to put the bolt back together i did manage to in the end but when we sold the rifle i told the buyer never ever take the bolt apart on pain of death,i have now seen a film of how to do it and would not want to even now.
ReplyDeleteJayG, I went through that same Holy Grailesque search online and saw the same responses. I finally found the diagram on some obscure Yahoo group, but you had to join the group to see it. To make it even more challenging, you had to be approved to join the group. I suppose I could have just gone to one of those Library places, but that is cheating, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteJayG,
ReplyDelete"And when I say "eventually", I mean it sat in the safe in a large plastic bag for three years before the scars - both physical and emotional - healed sufficiently to try a second time..."
You had what it known in the industry as "a box of gun".
I cannot tell you how many times over the years I've booked in a big sack or box of parts... :D
Ah, the Joys of Gun Ownership! Classic case of "Don't Try This at Home!"
ReplyDeleteThe 66 is a Royal PITA to reassemble - the first three times. But a 51 that someone has not tried to twist the barrel to remove should come apart as described. And quite easily.
ReplyDeleteSlip the slide back, pull the pin, and if the barrel does not come out with the minor persuasion that is normal pick up your soft hammer and whack the front of the frame.
NOT the barrel, but the front of the frame. Inertia will invariably leave the barrel free of the lugs and it will fall out of the frame if you are not careful.
Examine the barrel and lugs carefully for signs of past twisting, and use a fine file to dress down burrs. Once that is done it should come apart slickern' owl snot.
Stranger
Yep. We that do this as a profession get to see some really strange things. I can say though, that I have never seen a receiver spread to get the bolt out the bottom. That should be in a book somewhere.
ReplyDeleteI hate Nylon 66's.
I have to say that I never had problems taking my .380 Remington apart, but it was LNIB and well oiled.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't you love to see those plier marks on ASTRA 400s?
Stranger,
ReplyDeleteThat was suspected as a cause, but it looks like it was just bone dry, and hadn't been field stripped or cleaned in probably better than a half-century.
It was probably glued shut with varnish & powder residue.
The breechblock assembly still scares the whee out of me. :o
The Genius of JMB. Designing a stock 1911 to be completely disassembled using one cartridge case and one magazine.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant!
I am not a gunsmith, and I once was criticized on a gun forum for disassembling a Ruger GP-100 that I bought used for a really good price (hint #1 that the gunshop what sold it unto me knew it had a problem).
ReplyDeleteI did the disassembly in an attempt to discern the cause of the cylinder locking up when the gun was fired quickly in double action. Pieces in the trigger assembly looked somewhat bent from comparison with the online exploded schematic, as if the timing was off and they were jamming into some other parts. I put the pieces back together, not without some amusing confusion, and did not fire the gun again. I posted my queries on the gun forum, was roundly criticized for messing with dark arts beyond the ken of my mere mortality, and got bupkis help.
So I shipped the pistol off to Ruger with my guesses gleaned from my detailed disassembly, and they fixed it. Free. They sent it back to me in a new box with instruction booklet and a brief note that said essentially, "It is fixed." Without details, of course.
I went back to the gun forum, wrote on my thread them I was right about everything, and never asked them anything again.
My conclusion: what good is it to have a fairly complex yet elegantly designed mechanical object if you can't enjoy tinkering with it?
Several people have cursed the assembly of the Savage pistol, as it has no screws to hold it together, the parts fit together like a puzzle. That was one of the reasons that drew me to the little gun. I happen to like stuff like that, and it was done over a hundred years ago. A very clever design.
ReplyDelete"Several people have cursed the assembly of the Savage pistol, as it has no screws to hold it together..."
ReplyDeleteTrue, but I can't think of many self-loading pistols that are held together with screws.
Interestingly, neither the Savage nor the Remington use screws to attach the grip panels, as that was one of the patents held by Colt at the time.
Is there a solid survey of firearms development that discusses patents - and innovations that arose from the requirement not to infringe on the patents of others?
ReplyDeleteNot that I'm aware of. I'd make a fascinating book, though.
ReplyDeleteBoth the Savage and the Remington also have separate bolts or breechblocks, as Colt had the patent on the one-piece slide and breechblock.
And I thought a Ruger Mk I/II/III was annoying to take down/put back...
ReplyDeleteI can't remember where read of the smith who looked up to see a man coming in the door with a box in his hands and a pissed-off expression, followed by another guy with a very unhappy face. The first set the box on the counter and said "I need this put back together." Then grabbed the other guys' shirt, pulled him forward and said "My brother-in-law will be paying for it."
ReplyDeletesome tips on field stripping the 51
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrwmtuXOjU
nml
A few months work at the local indoor range, access to the Gun Digest Handbook, and overconfidence, left me with a box of customer's Nylon 66 and a note for the GM to read the next morning that I was having a bit of trouble with part of the reassembly.
ReplyDeleteThe "reassembly of the bolt" part, as I recall. ;)
Speaking of "No user serviceable parts inside" guns - I enjoyed shooting my Marlin Camp .45, but I wanted to absolutely strangle whomever engineered that thing when it came time to field strip and clean it.
ReplyDelete"Box of Gun" love the term.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting to see the workarounds due to patent infringement
nml,
ReplyDelete"some tips on field stripping the 51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrwmtuXOjU"
A video that brilliantly illustrates my point, in that I could have field-stripped, cleaned, lubed, and reassembled both my Colt and Savage by the time he wrestled the firing pin out of that 51. ;)
Er, the Nylon 66 is supposed to be hard to reassemble? The only time I had trouble putting mine back together was the time I took the striker out. *That* was a pain in the backside.
ReplyDeleteAn Astra 300 is a bit of a pain to disassemble and even more so to reassemble because of that big very strong slide spring.
ReplyDeleteYes, I hadn't thought about others, but it was only until the 1917 that they put a screw in the grip panels.
ReplyDeleteRossi version of the Winchester M92 was my nemesis. Got it apart, 20 bucks to a gun doctor to assemble. Never again!
ReplyDeleteTam,
ReplyDeleteI feel your pain. I too was advised not to break down my 51 until shown how by someone who knew the gun, so it sat in my gunsafe unfired for a bit. Found a guy at a gunshow a couple of months later who had a handful of the things and was knowledgeable enough and willing to demonstrate on one of his. Mine was a little stubborn too and I've only had it apart the one time.
staghounds,
I can't tell you how many Astras I have run across bearing those plier marks! I even had a fellow cop bring me one that he inherited from his dad just recently, since I am known as the cop with a lot of trivial knowledge about old OTG guns (other than Glock). It too bore the signature Astra plier marks, although he claimed they were done by his father a long time ago, and indeed they weren't fresh. From the condition, I'd say dad never did get it apart, merely cleaning what he could get to without taking it apart.
All the Nylon 66 commenters,
How coincidental. I was just at my favorite local gunsmith's shop recently and laying on the counter was a Nylon 66 (the "Apache" version I think). It had the sheet metal that wraps around the receiver area laying next to it with various other parts. It seems the owner's first step a takedown began with prying off the metal around the receiver!
Tam,
ReplyDeleteI'd make a fascinating book, though.
Yes, you would. In fact you'd be the perfect person to tackle a book like that.
Will you take pre-orders? ;)
wv: prone. No kidding.
Holy God, this reminds me of the time I reassembled a Kahr PM9 and managed to slip the wrong part of the slide stop through the takedown notch in the slide. Hours of fiddling, looking at online schematics, reading forum posts suggesting I send it to the factory to unfarble. I finally managed to press the slide against a flat surface and push down on the top of the chamber enough to get the barrel to disengage and drop.
ReplyDelete+1 on the Ruger .22 mk nothing, I II and I presume III.
ReplyDeletetook it apart in less than 30 seconds three hours later after losing religion(s), breaking a few commandments and some thoughts of desecrating a grave (dig that bleep up and wring his neck) it finally went back together and worked. and that was with a full sized 'exploded drawing' in front of me. grrrr thank God and EvilloopholeGunShow that sucker is gone (caresses 1903 Colt which comes and part and goes back together like a well tooled engineered marvel it is).
woerm/THR
Incidentally, just messing around with it in front of the computer today, the slide popped off and on again with very little drama.
ReplyDeleteAmazing what a difference a bit of cleaning and lube makes...
Oh this reminds me of the old trapdoor conversion that came in I think back in 91 or 92. The owner thought it should be easy to take it apart to fully clean it. Yes it is easy to take apart, however putting it back together without the 2 springs he evidently lost since the weren't inventoried when the rifle came in and he SWORE up and down hey were in the ziplock bag when he brought it in. The springs were for the extractor/ejector and the firing pin. And I know they weren't brought in with the rifle as I was the person who signed it in and did the inventory on it. It took a month of trying to find parts, and failing as it was converted in BFE, so we wound up making new springs for it.
ReplyDelete"Interestingly, neither the Savage nor the Remington use screws to attach the grip panels, as that was one of the patents held by Colt at the time."
ReplyDeleteIt's nice to know stupidity in issuing obvious patents has been going on that long. Really it is. At least I know the patent office hasn't gotten any stupider and is merely carrying on a grand tradition.
Gosh, to think I felt stupid with the CETME's locking lugs...One of the few things that I felt the urge to sit, drink beers, and ask somebody how it worked the next day. And get laughed at by the buddy who also had one and said to me, "Don't take it apart! You'll have to take it someplace and have them show you how to fix it!"
ReplyDeleteThe Ruger Mark series pistols aren't bad...if you've had somebody show you how to do it that is.
Got a buddy w
CETMEs are easy - drop the bolt and carrier (and I mean DROP, not insert) into the receiver backward to push the rollers into the bolt body and extend the bolt, then shake it out carefully and put it back in right way around.
ReplyDelete