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“I only regret that I have but one face to palm for my country.”
Thursday, September 27, 2012
Sneak Preview:
While I am not at liberty to say too much yet, I snapped this picture of the raw ingredients of a sexy, sexy 1911 forged frame and slide the other day. #Not_Castpian
ohhh...I also have a lathe, and a (horizontal) mill, and a shaper! Building a 1911 with them is one of my must do projects, and why I'm currently taking Basic Machine Shop (last night I turned a cylinder of aluminium into a smaller diameter cylinder of aluminium!) :)
The whole forgings vs. castings thing is over-rated to the Nth degree. It was sales-speak a few years ago when it came to M1A/M14NM and M1 Garand receivers made by folks other than Uncle Sam. Bottom line, a good casting is better than a bad forging. Do bad castings exist? Sure, but that's a quality control issue, not an attribute inherent to castings as a whole. I've got cast and forged 1911 variants, a cast Armscorp of Baltimore M14NM, and we all know Springfield M1A rifles don't exactly go kablooey every week due to their horrible cast receivers. When my Caspian 1911s let go, I'll be the first to ring that church bell for all to hear. Now, MIM I cannot tolerate, but it appears to work for the most part...
(The problem isn't the casting, it's the people machining the frame from the casting. I'm glad yours have worked when you bought them in onesie-twosies, but buying them in lots of twenty and fifty has been nothing but a goddam disappointment.)
Oh, and there's nothing like fitting a beavertail and having the file suddenly expose a huge casting void in the tang. That'll put you off your feed, right there...
From a bit of commentary I've been engaged in on defensemedianetwork, concerning an article called The Return of the M1911:
That’s less than $1,900 a pistol, which is actually a decent price for an all milled, all forged pistol. Go to castings and you could cut the price to about $900-$1,000, but they wouldn’t hold up very well under a military lifestyle.
I recently saw a new Ruger 1911 (all Rugers are cast) that needed it’s slide tightened up after only a few months of active shooting.
By comparison, I also recently saw an original 1915 production piece that had been through at least 5 barrel changes. Presumably many more, since military armorers stopped putting the pinpricks inside the dust cover that denoted barrel changes sometime back around the beginning of the Vietnam war. But a minimum of 100,000 rounds, and probably a considerable multiple of that.
We get our forgings from Bourden Forge in Middletown CT, who have been making them for more than 80 years. I have a piece of paper on the wall that says I’m supposed to know something about metallurgy, and I grimace when I hear people say that “modern” castings (MIM, etc.) are as good as forgings.
Castings work fine in compression, but are more than questionable whenever there is a repetitive torsional load.
Developing a grain structure along the line of flexure means the same difference in steel as you would find between an archer’s bow made of long grained wood and another made of particle board.
Either the load is transferred and shared across a coherent area or it’s concentrated between individual granules, what we egghead engineers call a stress riser. I’ll believe castings work well in that environment when auto manufacturers start using cast connecting rods in their engines.
Another thing to consider is that most semiauto pistols are 90 degree guns, meaning that the bore is perpendicular to the breech face. They start unlocking as soon as the slide begins it’s rearward movement. A properly made 1911 is a 91 degree gun, meaning the barrel and breechfach are pointing downhill one degree.
This gives a slightly longer dwell time before unlocking, but even more so, it creates a secondary “toggle-lock” effect when the pistol has to process an occasional hot round.
Important a century ago, when quality control in loading machines might not have been as good as it is today.
Even more important now, when everyone and his cousin has to put Plus P and +P+ loads down the tube to prove his manhood.
Interestingly, the original 1905 was also a 90 degree gun, and the toggle/longer dwell idea was added by the military review board as an enhancement. So, the 1911 might not be entirely a John Moses Browning design, rather a joint effort improvement of the basic Browning with input from General Thompson of Tommygun fame, and a young Captain named Julian Hatcher, who went on to essentially reinvent modern ballistics, firearms metallurgy, and forensics.
I’ve often wondered what effect the initial cycle delay built in to the 1911 by the review board had on General Thompson’s later use of the Blish lock, or friction delay, that he put in his submachinegun design.
A different mechanism, borrowed from naval artillery, but the same effect, ensuring a slower beginning to the extraction cycle, resulting in a more positive grab by the extractor and less chance of rim damage to the cartridge case.
Add in the .45′s much lower operating pressures, 17,000 psi to 22,000 psi for most target and service rounds, with a Plus P not exceeding 27,500psi (LUP, same thing when you’re working down in that range).
Compare that to the low to high 30K range found in 9mm’s, .357 SIG’s, and .40′s. Then throw in the self tensioned internal extractor, rather than the spring loaded external extractor that so often develops a “float” with high pressure rounds, resulting in stoppages.
There's a lot more, at http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-return-of-the-m1911-45-acp/#comments
And that linked "Return of the .45?" article is a fluff piece. Those Colt Rail Guns are destined to be safe queens, as the guys for whom they are intended are entirely happy with their G19s.
Regarding cast parts, one of the Japanese motorcycle companies (Yamaha?) a few years back patented a new way to cast aluminum frames. They were previously all welded assys. IIRC, it eliminates voids, and gives full density in all areas of intricate shapes. It worked so well that they were able to reduce the weight/size of the structural members. I'm wondering if the process could be used for steel. I think I saved the magazine article, and will look for it.
At present, unless you buy a performance engine, Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler are using cast blocks, cast heads, cast pistons, cast conn rods, cast crankshafts, with only the camshaft forged, and not many of those.
About all that's forged in a modern engine anymore is tranny/drivetrain parts that are subject to heavy torque.
Some assembly required?
ReplyDeleteI've got a milling machine and a lathe - is someone going to be selling 80% forgings?
ReplyDeleteHmmm....wonder what THAT is ;-)
ReplyDeleteSeems pretty simple; just mill away everything that's not a perfect fighting pistol.
ReplyDeleteSimple, not to say easy...
Awww shucks, Tam! You shouldn't have! I know my Birthday is only a few weeks away, but you could have waited until Christmas!
ReplyDeleteSo when can I pick it up? ; )
TJIC,
ReplyDelete"I've got a milling machine and a lathe - is someone going to be selling 80% forgings?"
Not initially, AFAIK, although that's a distinct possibility down the road.
But are they genuine Philippeño Slag® brand forgings?
ReplyDeleteDon't settle for imitation!
Angus McThag,
ReplyDeleteFilipino slag is cast, not forged. :)
Let's hope they're from Bourdon Forge in Middletown Connecticut, flat out the best I've ever found.
ReplyDelete80 years of making the same part really shows in the final product.
Forged in Korea?
ReplyDeleteCan somebody explain to me the difference between "forgeries" and "forgings"?
ReplyDeleteOh, wait, there's a dictionary button around here somewhere...
Let's hope that when they lay out the machining, they produce traditional, tested dimensions and that they don't try to "tweak" it.
ReplyDeleteWe already have far too many unreliable 1911 clones* on the market.
*i.e., non-Colt, non-Springfield. Yeah, I went there...
ohhh...I also have a lathe, and a (horizontal) mill, and a shaper! Building a 1911 with them is one of my must do projects, and why I'm currently taking Basic Machine Shop (last night I turned a cylinder of aluminium into a smaller diameter cylinder of aluminium!) :)
ReplyDeleteOccurs to me that we have a mutual acquaintances with a shopsmith...
ReplyDeleteNice paper!
ReplyDeleteThe whole forgings vs. castings thing is over-rated to the Nth degree. It was sales-speak a few years ago when it came to M1A/M14NM and M1 Garand receivers made by folks other than Uncle Sam. Bottom line, a good casting is better than a bad forging. Do bad castings exist? Sure, but that's a quality control issue, not an attribute inherent to castings as a whole. I've got cast and forged 1911 variants, a cast Armscorp of Baltimore M14NM, and we all know Springfield M1A rifles don't exactly go kablooey every week due to their horrible cast receivers. When my Caspian 1911s let go, I'll be the first to ring that church bell for all to hear. Now, MIM I cannot tolerate, but it appears to work for the most part...
ReplyDeleteThey're so cute when they're just slugs.
ReplyDeleteGewehr 98,
ReplyDelete"Bottom line, a good casting..."
Been casting about for one of those for years, if you'll pardon the pun.
Haven't found one. Hence the picture.
If you know where a good casting can be found, I know someone who'll be all ears...
(The problem isn't the casting, it's the people machining the frame from the casting. I'm glad yours have worked when you bought them in onesie-twosies, but buying them in lots of twenty and fifty has been nothing but a goddam disappointment.)
ReplyDeleteOh, and there's nothing like fitting a beavertail and having the file suddenly expose a huge casting void in the tang. That'll put you off your feed, right there...
ReplyDeletegood looking paper weights.
ReplyDeleteFrom a bit of commentary I've been engaged in on defensemedianetwork, concerning an article called The Return of the M1911:
ReplyDeleteThat’s less than $1,900 a pistol, which is actually a decent price for an all milled, all forged pistol. Go to castings and you could cut the price to about $900-$1,000, but they wouldn’t hold up very well under a military lifestyle.
I recently saw a new Ruger 1911 (all Rugers are cast) that needed it’s slide tightened up after only a few months of active shooting.
By comparison, I also recently saw an original 1915 production piece that had been through at least 5 barrel changes. Presumably many more, since military armorers stopped putting the pinpricks inside the dust cover that denoted barrel changes sometime back around the beginning of the Vietnam war. But a minimum of 100,000 rounds, and probably a considerable multiple of that.
We get our forgings from Bourden Forge in Middletown CT, who have been making them for more than 80 years. I have a piece of paper on the wall that says I’m supposed to know something about metallurgy, and I grimace when I hear people say that “modern” castings (MIM, etc.) are as good as forgings.
Castings work fine in compression, but are more than questionable whenever there is a repetitive torsional load.
Developing a grain structure along the line of flexure means the same difference in steel as you would find between an archer’s bow made of long grained wood and another made of particle board.
Either the load is transferred and shared across a coherent area or it’s concentrated between individual granules, what we egghead engineers call a stress riser. I’ll believe castings work well in that environment when auto manufacturers start using cast connecting rods in their engines.
Another thing to consider is that most semiauto pistols are 90 degree guns, meaning that the bore is perpendicular to the breech face. They start unlocking as soon as the slide begins it’s rearward movement. A properly made 1911 is a 91 degree gun, meaning the barrel and breechfach are pointing downhill one degree.
This gives a slightly longer dwell time before unlocking, but even more so, it creates a secondary “toggle-lock” effect when the pistol has to process an occasional hot round.
Important a century ago, when quality control in loading machines might not have been as good as it is today.
Even more important now, when everyone and his cousin has to put Plus P and +P+ loads down the tube to prove his manhood.
Interestingly, the original 1905 was also a 90 degree gun, and the toggle/longer dwell idea was added by the military review board as an enhancement. So, the 1911 might not be entirely a John Moses Browning design, rather a joint effort improvement of the basic Browning with input from General Thompson of Tommygun fame, and a young Captain named Julian Hatcher, who went on to essentially reinvent modern ballistics, firearms metallurgy, and forensics.
I’ve often wondered what effect the initial cycle delay built in to the 1911 by the review board had on General Thompson’s later use of the Blish lock, or friction delay, that he put in his submachinegun design.
A different mechanism, borrowed from naval artillery, but the same effect, ensuring a slower beginning to the extraction cycle, resulting in a more positive grab by the extractor and less chance of rim damage to the cartridge case.
Add in the .45′s much lower operating pressures, 17,000 psi to 22,000 psi for most target and service rounds, with a Plus P not exceeding 27,500psi (LUP, same thing when you’re working down in that range).
Compare that to the low to high 30K range found in 9mm’s, .357 SIG’s, and .40′s. Then throw in the self tensioned internal extractor, rather than the spring loaded external extractor that so often develops a “float” with high pressure rounds, resulting in stoppages.
There's a lot more, at http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-return-of-the-m1911-45-acp/#comments
Mr. Foster, your analogy of bow material, one using particle board is very apt, and I will use it in my classes.
ReplyDeleteSome stippling, a G-lock rollmark,a barrel, and a couple of springs laying around, and it'd be easily mistaken for a field stripped Glock!
ReplyDeleteAm I the only non-engineer that would like to follow Ed Foster around for a few months just to learn things unknown?
ReplyDelete"I’ll believe castings work well in that environment when auto manufacturers start using cast connecting rods in their engines."
ReplyDeleteUh, Ed, connecting rods (and crankshafts) are usually cast.
And that linked "Return of the .45?" article is a fluff piece. Those Colt Rail Guns are destined to be safe queens, as the guys for whom they are intended are entirely happy with their G19s.
ReplyDelete...come to think of it, some connecting rods these days are even MIM. :)
ReplyDeleteEd:
ReplyDeleteI have read that GM is using MIM connecting rods.
Regarding cast parts, one of the Japanese motorcycle companies (Yamaha?) a few years back patented a new way to cast aluminum frames. They were previously all welded assys. IIRC, it eliminates voids, and gives full density in all areas of intricate shapes. It worked so well that they were able to reduce the weight/size of the structural members. I'm wondering if the process could be used for steel. I think I saved the magazine article, and will look for it.
Wonder if you can take that on an airplane.
ReplyDeleteSo, it appears that Tam is now part of the Inner Circle of the Grand Conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteBwaaa-Haaaa-Haaaa....... We can't lose now!!
VJ
"Uh, Ed, connecting rods (and crankshafts) are usually cast."
ReplyDeletePriceless.
No, really...
At present, unless you buy a performance engine, Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler are using cast blocks, cast heads, cast pistons, cast conn rods, cast crankshafts, with only the camshaft forged, and not many of those.
ReplyDeleteAbout all that's forged in a modern engine anymore is tranny/drivetrain parts that are subject to heavy torque.
Modern CAR, not engine
ReplyDelete