Like this one at Cheaper Than Dirt's blog, the "Babineaux Method" for reholstering Glocks:
To ensure safe holstering, today’s professionals are beginning to utilize a method that has become known as the Babineaux Method.As they say on Wikipedia: [citation needed]
While the idea seems sound at first, keeping the trigger from moving rearward, the method is seriously flawed because it involves sticking your finger inside the trigger guard while holstering. Bad Idea.
If you are at all hurried, or shaky, or not paying attention, your finger is now only a half inch away from becoming exactly the trigger-jostling foreign object you're trying to guard against.
The column gets double extra bonus fail points for showcasing a photo of a guy stuffing a Glock into a floppy $10 Uncle Mike's neoprene clip-on holster pointed right at his junk in the suddenly trendy appendix-carry position. You could possibly come up with a better setup for disaster, but it'd take some work.
My chaff alert went off immediately.
ReplyDeleteWhat we have here is a case of active Darwinism.
ReplyDeleteI went to school with a Babineaux. They're common as foot fungus down here, and about as bright.
ReplyDeleteSo let's see... You're re-holsteering after an adrenaline rush and you INTENTIONALLY stuff your finger in the trigger guard and that's a good idea because you're, like, TRAINED and likely one of "the ONLY ONES'?
Cool!
MC
Ohh... Darwin at work (again) and CTD's pretty stupid for putting that out there... I smell a lawsuit as soon as somebody screws that particular pooch...
ReplyDeleteI really can’t see me trying that technique in the dark after a large adrenaline dump.
ReplyDeleteThat goes double for the eunuch carry.
Gerry
I can imagine a real-life scenario where, after having to use it, putting my Glock back into my IWB holster will be easier than putting it on the ground, or on a car hood, or on a piece of furniture.
ReplyDeleteBut I can imagine a whole lot more scenarios where just putting the gun down is likely.
Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. That means BOTH SIDES of the trigger.
ReplyDeleteThat photo is enough to make a guy's junk quiver with fear just looking at it.
Some people should at the Clipdraw website and check out their trigger block for the Glock family. I have several and they do work, haven't seen a down side yet. I also like their retention devise (Clipdraw) which can work in place of a standard holster. Just saying, I have no horse in this race. Good Luck.
ReplyDeleteWait... I get it now... The idea here is to thin the herd a bit.
ReplyDeleteWhat better way than to teach morons to appendix carry and use this crappy method of holstering into a crappy Uncle Mike's ziploc baggie?
Think about it... The very people who shouldn't be carrying guns and producing offspring are going to eat this method up because it looks all "gangsta" and cool.
They blow off their junk and they're likely to stop carrying and won't be able to drag the herd down with their moronic offspring.
CTD for the double win! Well played, CTD, well played...
What BobG said. Seems simple enough. I have Dragonworks leather for all four of my carry pistols and find them comfortable, safe, and superior to anything else I've ever tried (been searching for the perfect concealed carry holster since 1996).
ReplyDeleteSo much of this gun stuff is common sense.
Mike
Looks to me like the Glock-type pistols have a serious and fundamental design flaw. The obvious solution is to use a much safer gun, like a 1911.
ReplyDeleteMore than 80 comments on the CTD thread, and every one of them agreed on something. That has to be some kind of an internet record.
ReplyDelete"suddenly trendy"?
ReplyDeleteMy ccw option of the last 30 yrs is now trendy? I hate being trendy.
There is not now nor has there ever been a need for "speed" reholstering. Take your time, look at what you're doing and do it right.
There isn't a need to stop the trigger of a Glock either. Thats what the little tab on the front does.
It does it very well unless you have your head up your ass and let something/anything interfere.
The part where they state that "neither J. Babineaux, the author, nor Cheaper Than Dirt! assume any liability incurred during the application of this technique" was my favorite.
ReplyDeleteDon't they realize that they don't HAVE to "assume" the liability, the lawyer acting on behalf of the client that perforates their naughty bits will simply point out that the author made claims that it was the safest method of reholstering and CTD propagated that statement on their website? There's no assuming involved.
Sounds like as much fun an experience as implementing the Rochambeau Method:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103724/rochambeau
Hey Jean Luc Picard, what do you think of the BubbaNo method?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI
I see, carry on.
You can't say "Babineaux" without "NOOO!!!!"
ReplyDelete"pointed right at his junk in the suddenly trendy Obamacare vasectomy position"
ReplyDeleteFIFY
That's not fail. It's -51.98% win.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that usually gets itself magically inserted into the trigger guard while reholstering is your own damn booger hook. So the solution, stick your booger hook in there on purpose. Brilliant! Or is there some rash of suicidal hummingbirds flying in there that I am unaware of?
ReplyDeleteSo how about you just keep your finger outta there and don't carry the crappy gun sock that might just worm its way in? Crazy talk, I know
Babineaux? That's a dark rum from Hati, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteWhich would kind of explain things...
Safe drawstroke and safe holstering just is not that difficult. People make such a big deal about what ultimately is just not that difficult. Train to have a proper trigger finger index, use good quality gear (holster) that isn't going to fail you and create safety problems (crappy universal holsters, IWB holsters that collapse and require a second hand for reholstering). People safely (for the most part) manage to operate complex machines like automobiles, computers and other electronics, etc. all day long, but that simple little 2 pound chunk of steel they let completely DOMINATE them. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it like that.
ReplyDeleteThis is completely in line with the quality of writing that I've seen by the "Gun Experts" on the Cheaper Than Dirt! website.
ReplyDeleteThe scary thing is, these guys really believe that they are gun experts, simply because they write on the CTD site. Circular thinking, much?
I would sign my name to this, but I know one of them, and he would think that I was talking about him. And of course, I am. I just don't need the flack.
--AnonyMouse.
Is it just me or is the article now gone?
ReplyDeleteLooks like CTD pulled it. Good.
ReplyDeleteNow we'll just have to spend the next year explaining the deal to beginners who read this and didn't know any better than to believe it.
Uncle Mike's holsters, in my opinion, are meant for places where "totin' is verboten" so one is more likely to be ditching their carry gear during the swift attempt to walk away from a legal adventure. Though these days that's not a good plan...cameras are cheap and plentiful, we're almost in Drake's "A Nation Without Walls"...I don't think he meant said novel as an instruction manual.
ReplyDeleteNot that I ever contemplated that...Ohio-Land has had the Permission Slips and I never toted until I was granted permission. Ever. Because I knew I'd be better off being ventilated than toting a revolver since it wasn't legal to do so.
Ahhh....the good old days of carrying at home only, and only once inside the door. Only reason I got a Michael's of Oregon suede holster was because there was no point in much else, since, one couldn't go in public with a concealed pistol, there was no point in much else. What's the point of a hundred dollar holster you have to remove at your front door? An Uncle Mike's is easier to keep a pistol handy than just Mexican carry or leaving it set on the couch under a pillow. But with a revolver. Maybe...just maybe...using an item with an external safety, though I think even that's a bad idea.
Echoing tailwind and others, this is trying to solve a very real problem. Since CDT has pulled the posting, I'll restate my reply and how this doesn't solve the problem.
ReplyDeleteThere's 3 failure modes that I can think of that can cause an AD/ND with striker fired handguns, that because of their design can't be detected while in progress (per Ayoob, you put your thumb in front of (SA) or behind the hammer (DA) to stop or detect):
Holster failure. Pretty obviously, don't cheap out here and inspect your reasonable quality holster to detect problems before they get severe. A recent noted ND was indeed with an Uncle Mike's holster, what made it an ND is that the owner knew the holster was starting to fail some time before.
Finger in the trigger guard. Obviously this method will increase the probability of that.
Foreign object in the trigger guard, e.g. a windbreaker string tie, which cause a recent noted one. This is where I consider striker fired handguns to be fatally flawed, there's no holster design that can stop this, and you may have to holster when you can't be extra careful to avoid this (like after you've used it in self-defense but you're not sure the threat is over).
This method wouldn't necessarily stop the latter problem. Your fingertip in back of the trigger might detect the trigger being forced backwards, but that's iffy, especially since you'll have to remove your finger before you've finished seating your gun. In the latter case, it might just delay, not stop the AD/ND.
hga,
ReplyDelete"Foreign object in the trigger guard, e.g. a windbreaker string tie..."
Buy a knife.
hga,
ReplyDelete"you may have to holster when you can't be extra careful to avoid this (like after you've used it in self-defense but you're not sure the threat is over)."
Also, if you're not sure the threat is over, then why are you putting your gun away? You might still need it.
Is it just me or did they yank that bright idea down?
ReplyDeleteTam -- I think his point is, "a foreign object you aren't AWARE of having gotten in the way."
ReplyDeletePopped off an ND (blank, thank God) when the hinge on the NBC cap of my canteen encountered the trigger of my M16. Yes, I was carrying it "off Safe" -- precisely as I had been trained to do by a memeber of the "My finger IS my safety" Big Boy Rules Crowd.
Geodkyt: I think she got that; I used it as an a real life example (see here, but be warned the last picture is a bit bloody but the guy appears to have really lucked out).
ReplyDeleteOf course you can cut these off and everyone advises that, but statistically the carry community can't prevent every possible foreign object from ever entering the trigger guard while holstering. Hence the Ayoob advice, which I follow religiously (1911, thumb firmly in front of hammer).
Echoing your ND experience, I consider myself fortunate to have been trained by my mostly Gun Culture 1.0 hunting father. When hunting, Rule 2 (Don't let your muzzle cover something you're not willing to destroy), is paramount because the wild is full of things like twigs and brush entirely too eager to reach out and pull your trigger (and obviously we won't 100% trust safeties, which also tend to be subject to the same thing (tang safeties win there, but I think you're more likely to accidentally move one off safe while handing it)).
As long as you're wearing clothing, as long as you holster your gun in a world of tangible external objects, you cannot eliminate this danger, hence my judgement that striker designs are inherently fatally flawed for carry.
Tam: Assume nighttime for all of these; I may not be sure the threat is over because the people who are approaching appear to be good guys, but one of them might not be, or might be a relative of the neutralized threat who then acts unwisely. But for the good guys, I'll sure make a better impression if I've holstered my weapon.
ReplyDeleteOr suppose I'm pretty sure it's all over, but not 100% sure the threat didn't have some friends nearby, and due to the stress I'm a little too uncoordinated to make that super urgent 911 call with my off hand (e.g. the threat is hopefully still alive).
Or the police arrive unexpectedly; if I wasn't willing to put my gun on the ground before then, again it's a lot better if its in my holster than in my hands.
Or suppose I have to render first aid to myself, and am therefore even more out of it than normal.
Geodkyt & hga,
ReplyDeleteIf you've got time and safety to put it into the holster, then you have time and safety to LOOK it into the holster.
If you are in an environment where you can't tear your eyes away long enough to LOOK the gun into the holster, then it needs to stay in your hand or get dropped on the ground.
Going on about teh zOMG critical defects! of striker-fired pistols almost thirty years after they've more-or-less completely taken over the market is like complaining that a Model A won't get a drunk driver back to the barn the way a horse will.
If you've got time and safety to put it into the holster, then you have time and safety to LOOK it into the holster.
ReplyDeleteI wear mine at 5 o'clock. Sorry, I'm not that flexible.
Beyond that it's clear our discussion is not productive.
Going on about teh zOMG critical defects! of striker-fired pistols almost thirty years after they've more-or-less completely taken over the market is like complaining that a Model A won't get a drunk driver back to the barn the way a horse will.
ReplyDeleteQOTD.
Maybe they could add a thumb operated lever to the side of the gun that internally blocks the gun from going off.
ReplyDeleteASM286,
ReplyDelete...and if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.
(I don't think it would necessarily be a bad idea, but the "safeties will get you killed!" thing has been so successfully sold for decades now that you might as well bitch about rock'n'roll and kids these days, pops. ;) )
ASM826: I at least consider the "death lever" concept legitimate. If I hadn't been shooting since kindergarten and didn't use 1911s (mostly because they've fit my hand perfectly since I was a teenager) with their very ergonomic safety, I'd seriously consider it.
ReplyDeleteBut all that said, see my above comments on depending on a safety. As I was raised, you just don't, although I grant for this problem adding one to the mix significantly decreases the probability of a AD/ND while noting that only an external hammer can provide a fail-safe.
Tam,
ReplyDeleteI'm not complaining about the inherent safety of Glocks and other striker fired pistols without manual safeties.
I was merely clarifying a point it appeared to me you had missed when you mentioned "knife" as a solution to "not noticing windbreaker string stuck in trigger guard". (For shortening my windbreaker strings, I use that esoteric skill known as "knots", just as I was ordered to by a large, unfriendly man way back in my youth, along with "burn off loose threads" and "tuck in boot laces". I don't have dangly strings to make unintended loud noises, and I STILL have the capacity of snugging up my coats to keep wind out. {grin})
I frankly don't have any problems with carrying a Glock in a fairly rigid holster, and I've found that extending my trigger finger to outside the trigger guard does a pretty good job of shielding the trigger guard while reholstering. Haven't had the issue of "crap getting into the trigger guard" with my guns, but I can see someone else worried about having it.
I don't look into my holster when reholstering for two reasons:
1. I may THINK the incident is over, and be reasonably more worried about getting ventilated by Barney Fife (even if my gun is on the ground, but close enough I have control) who is close enough I can hear the sirens, but I could be mistaken. Not being omniscient, I'd rather be able to holster without totally ignoring the world around me. It would REALLY suck if Sumdood's brother was bent on revenge and snuck up and hit me in the back of the head with something low-tech, like a rock, whilst I am staring into my leather, fiddling around with my heater. (For that matter, maintaining an appearance of full situational awareness may result in Sumdood V.2 deciding his risk-reward matrix is not favorable. Even if you do have the peripheral awareness of a frog, due to your careful positioning and ninja-like use of reflective surfaces around you, if you look like food, you will get eaten -- but most lowlifes don't care for food that hurts. The follow-on fight that never happens is a 100% win.)
2. I carry behind the hip, back by my right side kidney -- having neither the Linda Blair neck nor X-Ray vision, it's a tad difficult to look into the holster while reholstering, especially if it's cold and I'm wearing a cover garment more substantial than an untucked shirt.
If I NEED to be able to see into the holster while reholstering, I OUGHT to be removing the holster altogether to reholster, then reinstalling it on my belt. Or, I can go all Tactical Teddy and just OC in a $10 black nylon thigh rig from Airsoft MegaUniverse (People's Liberation Army Penal Factory #56). Then I can easily see into my holster! {chuckle}