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| You could just about shave with those front sights. |
Above is a pair of .32 "New Departure" Safety Hammerless S&W top-break revolvers. On the left is a nickel 3" 1st Model from ~1891 and on the right is a blued 3 ¼" 2nd Model from about 1903. Note that in legal terms as far as the federal government is concerned, the big difference is not the latch that holds the revolver closed, but the fact that the one on the right is a firearm while the one on the left is not.
This post is getting a jillion hits off Facebook. I don't suppose someone would do me the courtesy of telling me where it was linked? I'd be ever so. :)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Support-Gun-Rights/402331383190135
ReplyDeleteI learn something ever' day. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteYes and ether one of those hand guns will kill a man just as dead now as then.
ReplyDeleteOK, every time I think I know something about guns, then you prove that I don't know squat. So, for the noobs in the audience, why is one considered a firearm and not the other. Please don't just say "It's because one was designed/built before 1900 and the other was after." I'd like some details, please.
ReplyDelete"Check out those teeny sights!" One of the origins of point shooting/missing....
ReplyDeleteSo, Tam... what is the most self-defense functional handgun you could buy that not legally a firearm? I'm curious every time that comes up.
ReplyDeleteAlan J.,
ReplyDelete"So, for the noobs in the audience, why is one considered a firearm and not the other. Please don't just say "It's because one was designed/built before 1900 and the other was after." I'd like some details, please."
hat's exactly it, though. The one on the left was made prior to 1899.
Yrro,
"So, Tam... what is the most self-defense functional handgun you could buy that not legally a firearm? I'm curious every time that comes up."
Probably a .38 S&W or .44 Russian Smith top-break. Thanks to cowboy action shooting, ammo for both calibers is at least reasonably available, and shootable examples are not prohibitively expensive. (Although even an ugly shootable .44 is going to be new Kimber money, probably.)
SAD TO SAY IN NYC BOTH REQUIRE A PERMIT
ReplyDelete"Probably a .38 S&W or .44 Russian Smith top-break. Thanks to cowboy action shooting, ammo for both calibers is at least reasonably available, and shootable examples are not prohibitively expensive. (Although even an ugly shootable .44 is going to be new Kimber money, probably.)"
ReplyDeleteAnother possibility, if you don't want to buy a really old gun, is a black powder revolver replica. Buy a couple of extra cylinders and keep 'em stuffed for relatively quick reloads.
You could also pair 'em with a conversion cylinder to make 'em into cartridge guns, but IIRC the law is really hazy on that, as to whether or not that makes it legally a firearm again.
Shhhh...!
ReplyDeleteCan't you keep a sekrit?!?
Gurls.
Rob,
ReplyDelete"Another possibility, if you don't want to buy a really old gun, is a black powder revolver replica. Buy a couple of extra cylinders and keep 'em stuffed for relatively quick reloads."
Replacing the cylinder on a BP revolver is only "relatively quick" when compared to, say, changing the timing belt on a Fiero.
I beg to differ on the BP revolver cylinder change, Tam.
ReplyDeleteEven more impressive, the accuracy to 50 yards with a round ball.
Buzz, everyone's got video on their cameras and camera phones, now. Show us how it's done, man. I'd seriously love to see it.
ReplyDeleteAnd my fave pre-1900 candidate for self-defense would be a Webley Mk II with birds head grips and a short barrel. .455 and a fast reload. Still very viable without trying to soup up the load.
But why are we letting everyone in on the secret? Shhhh. :)
I shot that gun at one of the blog meets. The front sight is like a whisker.
ReplyDeleteI'm always amazed at the special tiny sights on old guns. Was it stylistic or was there an advantage we're overlooking?
Buzz,
ReplyDelete"I beg to differ on the BP revolver cylinder change, Tam."
I know how long it takes; I've had enough of the things. It's certainly nothing I'd want to do on the clock.
What's a good time on the FAST drill with a BP revolver, I wonder?
Matt,
ReplyDeleteNot especially hard to do. Several friends and I regularly put a minimum of 10 rounds from a variety of black powder pistols into an 8 x 10 target area at our black powder shoot every month. I have a Ruger Old Army, 451 bore like 45 Colt. The guy next to me yesterday had a 50 cal single shot, and the one next to him an 1858 Remington copy.
As to the "have an extra cylinder or 2 loaded"... That is not the best long term idea unless you plan to shoot them every few days. Black powder is very hygroscopic and corrosive. That is why you always get at least 1 shot each day while hunting. Firing is the preferred method to unload a smoke pole. Leaving a loaded cylinder lay around in a midwest summer will cause the cylinder to corrode quickly. The powder can absorb enough water in a day or 2 to be completely useless.
As we approach the true day of the patriot, April 19, it is interesting that the firing I mentioned above, heard by the regulars on their way to Lexington, changed the sequence of events that fateful day.
Keep yer powder dry. We are all going to need it.
Forgot to mention, not that anyone cares, it is 50 yards, single handed.
ReplyDeleteTam,
I really love the gun pr0n! You have some of the coolest firearms!
leaddog,
ReplyDelete"Not especially hard to do."
Nobody said it's hard to do, just that it's slow as molasses. And it is. It's only "fast" by comparison to how long it takes to manually stuff all six chambers by hand again.
I could probably fire a standard Hand Ejector dry three or four times from dump pouches in the time it would take to replace the cylinder on a Colt (two or three times against a Remington.)
(I always wanted an Old Army...)
ReplyDeleteSorry, I misunderstood one of the comments and got the idea that the commenter thought that accuracy was an issue which it is not.
ReplyDeleteI was more concerned about the idea of having a few loaded cylinders laying around for a few weeks, bad idea.
I completely agree that you would need a calendar for the FAST drill, even if you had sufficient preloaded cylinders.
Thanks for the ice cream!
Granted, I can't cycle a cylinder as fast as a mag, but 6 shots at a time, "outside the realm" of a rapidly destabilizing and exponentially expanding central government is certainly a nice backup plan.
ReplyDelete>> Black powder is very hygroscopic and corrosive.
ReplyDeleteDoes that include Pyrodex?
Bruce, to a somewhat lesser extent yes. Triple seven is about the best you can do for blackpowdoer substitute these days bit even it is more both than smokeless powder.
ReplyDeleteBruce H
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, all powder, smokeless, black, and substitutes are hygroscopic to one degree or another. That is why we keep them sealed in cool, dry, places out of the beating sun.
Water and BOOM just do not seem to go well together in most situations.
Wait, color me stupid here.
ReplyDeleteThe ATF doesn't consider anything made before 1899 a firearm?
This can't be a blanket authorization to walk into the county courthouse with half a dozen flintlocks in my vest though, can it?
Or does it just allow me to carry a 120 year old pepper box without a license anywhere weapons aren't prohibited?
Woodman,
ReplyDeleteWhere you can carry stuff is mostly state or local laws, so you'd have to check.
The main place where the "not a firearm" rule applies is that you don't have to be an FFL to sell them or do a 4473.
Alath
Carmel IN
Am I correct in thinking that the problem is humid air having access to the powder through the nipple, and that even percussion caps don't completely seal them?
ReplyDeleteRob: putting a conversion cylinder on a cap and ball is not a quick job.
ReplyDeleteUnless you want to pull the cylinder every time you load it, you need to hog out a loading port.
Oh, and woodman: states define firearms differently than the feds. Oregon goes by the federal definition, but that was because they changed it when they went to must-issue CCW.
Most other states use a description that dates to the 19th Century to define "firearm".
You can seal your Cap& ball revolver with bees wax and Crisco on the front and use varnish or fingernail polish on the caps + nipples and they will stay perfectly water proof. I have carried them in a hard rain, and had them fire without a hitch. Tam it takes me 28 sec. to fire off all six- change cylinders- and shoot.(1858 new army) After 12 shots powder fowling slow's things down to a crawl. My best time EVER with the 1860 colt clone was 1 min. So I figure you are modest with that S&W. I'll bet you could get off 5-to-1 over a caplock revolver, all day any day.
ReplyDeleteUm, I know I'm late to the party here, but I left my ROA loaded for something over three years once. All six fired on the original caps, too. It's a stainless, does that make a difference?
ReplyDelete