One name I saw a lot was that "Massad Ayoob" guy. In the intervening years, I'd read plenty more articles and books by him, but had never gotten around to taking his much-recommended class.
Scratch one off the bucket list...
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| Mas layin' down some facts in the classroom. |
Short answer: This class has the reputation it does for a reason. There are lots of people who will teach you how to shoot like a ninja. There are darn few who will tell you when it's justified to shoot like a ninja, and how to avoid making yourself look like a ninja criminal in the aftermath. Ayoob is arguably the originator of the whole idea of Problem Number Two, as it is now often called.
Anyhow, more when I get home.
Bonus: The Grissom Air Museum is between here and Broad Ripple, and I've got a real camera with me this time!
(For those who have taken the class before, I got my autographed dollar bill and a 100% on the written, but I'd been reading the Cliff's Notes for years. Now I have authentication for my articulatin'. ;) )
It is a good class. No, a GREAT class. Mas is a natural instructor.
ReplyDeleteGlad you enjoyed it. I did LFI-1, -2 and -3 back in the day, and they've proved invaluable in many ways.
ReplyDeleteI missed the $1 by 2 lousy points, congrats
ReplyDeleteLots of pictures and a safe trip home please.
ReplyDeleteMas is The Man, The Myth and The Legend for a reason. I've had LFI 1 and 2 myself, ad had the privilege of watching him demolish an Assistant US Attorney in court a few years back. He is "da man".
ReplyDeleteI would love to take one of his classes. Never can have too much training.
ReplyDeleteHad zimmerman taken one of his classes maybe his SA would have been better and we would not have the circus we are watching down in old people land.
"I got my autographed dollar bill" - outstanding! You beat me. Kool!
ReplyDeleteCongrats! LFI changed my whole way of thinking about firelocks and self defense, I wish everybody could go...
ReplyDeleteThis post needs more pictures
ReplyDeleteYour matriculatin' will be authenticatin' your articulatin'.
ReplyDeleteBeen a shooter for over 20 years and have never taken a pro class other than in March of '12 when I took the required course for my South Carolina CCW.
ReplyDeleteBy the time the permit was processed and delivered I had changed my mind on the whole relocation thing and moved back to Alabama.
I should take a class like his someday. I regret that I never got out to Gunsite before the Colonel passed. His books were a great influence on my worldview in my early 20's.
Jealous, Envious, pick your Description.
ReplyDeleteSigh. Just when I got two things off the Bucket List last week, now I have to add another.....
Jelousy is such a wasted emotion but delicious all the same. Damn.
ReplyDeleteGoogle isn't helping me find "problem number two" (hold your jokes, please).
ReplyDeleteExplanation?
Thx!
TJIC,
ReplyDeleteProblem Number One is defending yourself from a violent attacker.
Problem Number Two is defending yourself from a misguided or malicious legal threat afterwards.
Too many folks think that their hypothetical future Defensive Gun Use is going to be a many-times-convicted felon crawling through their broken bedroom window in the middle of the night with a TEC-9 in each hand and a knife in his teeth and they'll shoot him and get a parade and the key to the city.
It doesn't always work out like that, of course.
Your class picture is posted on Mas website.
ReplyDeleteGerry
I thought about having them blur my face so everybody would think I was a Tier 0.5 Operator, but changed my mind. :D
ReplyDeleteTam on that note.
ReplyDeletePaul,
It wasn't until the media pressured the DA, that Zemerman got charged criminally..
And the only thing I can think of that will, possibly, keep us out of civil court would be for everyone to be required to take a use of force class; and know their local SD laws; and an over all return to self-reliance, a more favoriable view of gun culture, 2A and a better understanding of our right to self-defense.... It's not enough that we know the law, the general public is the one that's going to be sitting on your jury, if you ever have to defend yourself.
:-(
I'll bet the neck towel came in mighty handy when the humidity out there approached 100%!
ReplyDeleteAsk mas how many gun fights he has been in.
ReplyDeleteThose who can't - teach.
That' s the most fucking ignorant thing I've read all day.
ReplyDelete(...and illiterate, to boot. Did you not read the post to which you replied, or did you not understand it?)
ReplyDelete"Ask Mr. Ayoob how many gun fights he has been in." That's Mr. Ayoob to you.
ReplyDeleteIf I get in a gunfight, I've failed my primary mission.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
ReplyDeleteAsk Mr. Anonymous how many gunfights Mr. Anonymous has won in the courtroom.
ReplyDeleteThose who can't, troll.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI know the media is causing the zimmerman trial. I still think had his SA been up, he could have doen something before it got to deadly embrace.
If you are going to do community service you need to have options besides your gun. Just saying.
Took LFI 1 back in '96 up here in CT. . .enjoyed the hell out of it. . and Mas is a terrific instructor---clear, precise--and funny!
ReplyDeletePaul,
ReplyDeleteSA = Situational Awareness?
Making sure we are on the same page.
Being Aware and making correct choices based on that information is two different skill sets.
Someone has you on the ground beating your head into the ground, anytime now you could black out, quick what do you do?
:-)
Paul,
ReplyDeleteI not sure what lead to the confrontation, but the questions to be answerd is who raised the threat leave first and was deadly force justified.
What if questions don't get us anywhere.
:-)
Josh K.,
ReplyDeleteIt is not anywhere near that simple, and the failure points are much more numerous than "OMG TEH MEDIAZ!!!1!!ONE"
Just out of curiosity, have you taken Mr. Ayoob's class?
Ayoob hasn't been in any gunfights with shots fired, AFAIK. He does mention having taken several people at gunpoint without firing shots, which is how I hope all mine go, too.
ReplyDeleteLook, I have respect for the Cirillos and the Hanlons and the Stasches of the world, but they're not the only ones with something to teach. If George Zimmerman had graduated MAG40, it's entirely possible that he'd have handled everything differently that night, and not be in the fix he's in now. I realize Ayoob hasn't shot quite as many dogs as some of the big names on the national training scene, but I'm not really interested in reading your criticism of MAG40 unless you're going to write the actual criticism next time.
A further note on teaching: Those who can, *and* can teach, are the ones to watch. There are people who don't understand the material and yet try to teach, yes. But there are also many who can perform the skills admirably on demand and yet could never articulate what they were doing or why. A teacher has to have command of the material and the ability to express it to a variety of students of varying culture, ability, interest and attention.
Anyway, I just got word today that my MAG20 Range class is on for August in Wisconsin, so I'm happy. I'll be able to finish MAG40 this summer. It's the most expensive training I've ever done, and well worth it.
Don,
ReplyDelete"I realize Ayoob hasn't shot quite as many dogs as some of the big names on the national training scene..."
Bazinga!
I love you, man! *sloppy internets hugz* :D
Tam,
ReplyDeleteThat was my point.
We can second guess Zimmer, but the fact is we weren't there. Also we don't know what training he had. Paul or me were not there with the stressors and adrenaline.
So when Paul or even I go, if he would have had his SA (Side Arm?) up; We could also go, if he hadn't discided to get out of bed none of it would have happened either. It's all speculation on our part.
And to answer your question, no I haven't had the pleasure.
:-)
Josh K.,
ReplyDeleteYou are resolutely missing my point.
Then, I'm slow, sorry.
ReplyDelete:-)
I really haven't been keeping up with the case that well. So, I can only guess at what other failure points you are refering to.
Tam & Paul,
ReplyDeleteLet's see if I can clear up any confusion on my part.
Paul's original comment, "I would love to take one of his classes. Never can have too much training.
Had zimmerman taken one of his classes maybe his SA would have been better and we would not have the circus we are watching down in old people land."
The first part that start off well, but moved into speculation and the assumption that Zimmerman messed up or was un trained, and that is why he is on trial. When in fact you can do everything right and still get charged.
Tam, I thought your comment, "Problem Number Two is defending yourself from a misguided or malicious legal threat afterwards.
Too many folks think that their hypothetical future Defensive Gun Use is going to be a many-times-convicted felon crawling through their broken bedroom window in the middle of the night with a TEC-9 in each hand and a knife in his teeth and they'll shoot him and get a parade and the key to the city." at least the fist part was applicable.
My statement, "It wasn't until the media pressured the DA, that Zemerman got charged criminally.." was my impression at the time, and I was using media as a catch all for all the social pressure from Treyvon's family, bleeding hearts, and everyone that arm-chairing & building a narrative, right or wrong, that Treyvon was just minding his own buisness walking home & Zimmerman was just profiling him. Which even if true has nothing to do with if at the time of the shooting it was justified.
Also, just going to the training isn't a talisman that you're going to make all the correct decisions under the stress and adrenaline of the actual event. That you're not going to freeze or looped into unproductive actions or thoughts.
I asked this question, "Someone has you on the ground beating your head into the ground, anytime now you could black out, quick what do you do?" not because the answer is simple, it not! It's actually complex and situational. We can speculate as to what happened that lead to the situation in question, if that is even what happened, but we were not there and in their shoes.
All know is from the news, so what do I really know.
Mostly just thinking outloud and quite possibly and most likely out of my ass.
:-)
No, training is not a magical talisman or a guarantee. But good training is so much better than no training that it doesn't really bear discussion.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I thought the Ayoob class did well (I've only taken the classroom portion, nothing on the range yet) was provide for follow-through. If you haven't been through the course, this is how that works:
1. Students are encouraged to take copious notes. I took 83 pages of hand-written notes.
2. Students are encouraged to review their notes and use them to develop questions for the instructor.
3. Students are encouraged to exchange contact information with fellow students to facilitate sharing of notes.
4. Students are to review and revise their notes for clarity and organization; this is recommended about two weeks after the course.
5. Students are encouraged to contact fellow students and exchange notes, using the notes from the others to fill any gaps and see how others saw the same information.
6. Students are encouraged to revise their notes again to incorporate what they learned from the notes of others.
Now, I'm sure not everyone follows through on all that, but if you do, I think you end up learning, reviewing and re-reviewing that material, which is about all you can ask. It still doesn't guarantee you'll do everything right, but it's a long way ahead of where you'd be without it.
Don,
ReplyDeleteThe two key words in you comment was follows through with out that your no better off than before the class.
:-)
ps. I like mind maps vs. standard notes.
*you're
ReplyDeleteAppropos of nothing....
ReplyDeleteMy male obstetricians had never given birth.
My female OB had, but that wasn't what qualified her to manage someone else's childbirth. Her qualifications came from serious study of the field, and from decades-long experience coaching other people's births.
Weird, huh?
To the anon retard above:
ReplyDeleteI have been in more than one gunfight, which is itself a major fail.
I took Ayoob's LFI class when I was younger.
So far I have managed to avoid prison, mostly by religiously following his advice concerning dealing with the legal aftermath.
Those who do not really have the slightest fucking clue ... troll.
Pax, I'm stealing that one. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteJosh, yes, situational awareness is what was meant. That's one piece of the puzzle.
Zimmerman is going to be a very complex study on confrontation dynamics. I'm a slow and poor typist, so won't even attempt to get into detail.
Cleaning up a bit at home, and found this:
ReplyDeletean Ayoob article in the "Combat Handguns" mag, of 3/09. Column "self-defense and the law": Titled
"Be Discrete...Avoid a fight"
LFI-1 graduate here - too many good quotes to share in this space, but one that speaks to problem 2: "There isn't going to be a headline in the Boston Globe the next day 'Good guys 1 - dirtbags 0'".
ReplyDelete