Me: "I can fix that Kimber. There's a band saw right over there."Kimber stopped replacing their external extractor slides for free some years back.
"We're sorry you're stuck with one of our discontinued experimental abortions. Sucks to be you. We'll fix our mistake... for $200.".
Wish I had said that!
ReplyDeleteWhat kills me is that it's not like making an external extractor work is exactly rocket surgery. It was apparently completely beyond the ken of anyone at Kimber, though.
ReplyDeleteRemember this is the company that told my friend that his 1911 was jamming because he was not using factory approved super secret tactical oil on it. Sheeesh!
ReplyDeleteMy old Llama X1 (early 70's) has a external extractor and it has never failed me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the folks at Kimber need to take a trip to Spain. Sadly, Llama has went out of business.
My little IIIA has the same external extractor. Like the man said, it's not rocket science.
Robert Fowler,
ReplyDelete"Sadly, Llama has went out of business."
If I say that this is the first time I've ever heard those words used together in a sentence, will you think I'm a meanie gun snob? ;)
Hartford PD SWAT team (ERT) finally went to new slides on their 1911's, due to the S&W external extractors malfing about every 1,500 rounds. The properly tuned internal extractors need a tweak maybe every 5,000 rounds to keep them running, but with that basic maintenance, extractor caused glitches simply stopped.
ReplyDeleteHow important is that for the Average Joe who doesn't shoot while hanging upside down or with the slide against the pavement, I don't know. But external extractors don't seem to keep the same level of tension over long periods of sustained shooting that the traditional Browning does, and they are exposed to lots of crap.
Probably not much difference for a casual plinker, but for somebody who dumps a lot of rounds down the tube, a definite edge to JMB.
Ed,
ReplyDelete" But external extractors don't seem to keep the same level of tension over long periods of sustained shooting that the traditional Browning does, and they are exposed to lots of crap."
There's nothing inherently wrong with an external extractor. I've seen Glock extractors break claws, but I've never seen one lose spring tension. Never, not once, in twenty years. Neither has Bob or Shannon.
re: 1911 external extractors, there's a reason that Smith went from their initial external extractor design to the newer "E-series". Hilton Yam had a good breakdown on it, but I don't have the link handy.
(Personally, I think the requirement to "tweak" a properly-manufactured 1911 extractor at some 3k-5k interval is hooey. I think that if an internal 1911 extractor is losing tension in 3k rounds, it's unsat.)
Probably dirty more than spring tension.
ReplyDeleteI have a SW 4006 that has an external extractor and it is showing signs of having a weak spring. Cleaned it pretty good and that fixed the problem for a time. but problem came back so spring is next. Do not know round count on the beast as I bought it used and it providence was from a sheriffs department that was retooling.
Just cannot find it in myself to value kimbers as highly as they do.
Here's the Hilton Yam link: http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2011/04/external-extractors-and-1911s.html
ReplyDeleteHeck, at 3K rounds, I wouldn't cry into my Hoppes if I had to throw out and replace an internal extractor. Hell, even a Wilson "Bulletproof" is only $32 at Midway.
ReplyDeleteNot that I'd expect to have to replace an extractor at 3K (especially not a Wilson), only that it wouldn't exactly break teh bank if it were a recurring 3K maintenance cost.
Rick Taylor told me to make sure I always have an extra extractor in my go bag. He's been in fire fights where he's had to replace three of them because his custom rounds just stress the spring too much.
ReplyDeleteI asked him if that was in Macho Grande; he didn't talk about Macho Grande.
Since I carry 2,000 rounds and he recommends you change every 1,250 I carry two, plus one for my BUG.
My steel frame Officers Model has at least 10k rounds through it, on the original extractor. Made back in the late 80's, when Colt was making crap, due to union labor problems. Ditto for the Lightweight, at about 3k. Zero problems encountered after initial tuning.
ReplyDeleteThis is a disturbing read. I'm thinking of getting another 1911 next year (I have a Taurus PT1911AL and a Charles Daly MS1911-A1) and going up the price scale a bit.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid continuing to shoot IDPA with the aluminum frame Taurus will beat it to death and not sure the Daly is worth pouring much effort into.
I was leaning toward a Ruger SR1911 but a master class shooter I respect recommends the Kimber Stainless Target. The triggers on his are sexy good.
ReplyDeleteIf I say that this is the first time I've ever heard those words used together in a sentence, will you think I'm a meanie gun snob? ;)
Yes, you monster!
I love my little Llama .380 (the little one, much like the Mustang, but all steel).
Kimber made great guns once. But it was long inthe past.
ReplyDeleteWhen I bought my Kimber, there were still some good ones to be had. That was only 11 or 12 years ago. And they've put out some products, since. But they're a victim of their own success, first in expanding their semi-custom business, and then in "innovating."
ReplyDeleteI remember looking askance at the exterior extractor, and shrugging and thinking, "the only thing INHERENTLY wrong with an exterior extractor is that it's a little harder to replace [my little girl can replace an interior extractor in under a minute, if you'll give her a pencil], and that JMB (PBUH) did not design the 1911 that way."
Hmm, I've got a Kimber with the external extractor - works fine - but then it's only seen about 1500 rounds.
ReplyDeleteSince it's never caused me a problem - I've never bothered to look and see what problems I "should" be having.
So is the issue spring tension? If so replacing the spring should fix it - guess I'll have to take a look can't see why it should cost anything like 200 to replace that spring.
Richard Blaine,
ReplyDeleteKimber gave up trying to make external extractor guns run right. They used to replace the slide with an internal extractor slide for free. After about six months of hemorrhaging money doing that, they started charging $200 unless you could prove your were the original owner.
The issue is not "spring tension"; it's a badly designed external extractor with suboptimal geometry, coupled with indifferent QC at the small-parts level.
It is good that your gun is functioning well for you.
Never had an extractor problem with my SW 4516. Of course, now that I've said that...
ReplyDelete(Also, different people have different expectations when it comes to round counts. For example, for some people 1500 rounds is a lot and for others it's a 2-day weekend class.)
ReplyDeleteRobert,
ReplyDeleteA 4516 isn't a 1911. A 4516 was designed to use an external extractor.
"Rick Taylor told me to make sure I always have an extra extractor in my go bag. He's been in fire fights where he's had to replace three of them because his custom rounds just stress the spring too much."
ReplyDeleteAssuming this post isn't a joke and this Rick Taylor guy is legit...Overall probably not bad advice, but if you go through 3 extractors in that amount of time because of your custom ammo, it may be time to come up with a less energetic load, rather than hope the next time you're in an extended firefight you'll have enough time to replace three extractors...
Rob,
ReplyDeleteSee Rick Taylor, the world's greatest tactical instructor. :D
I've got a Team Match II that's probably seen 1000rds/yr though it over the last 9 years or so. Guess I've been lucky in that it's been fine (I haven't even replaced the recoil spring yet), but I will admit The external extractor needs to be pulled out/disassembled and cleaned about every 1000 rounds. I run it pretty wet, and powder residue mixes with lubricant into a paste that gums up the works if you don't.
ReplyDeleteThat said; I bought my Kimber when they were ~$1100. MSRP is a lot higher now... These days, I'd save a little longer and go for a Dan Wesson.
So, if I said "Alas, STAR went out of business" (actually, was killed by Brady and by nationalization) would I earn any snark...?
ReplyDeleteYeah, some people will burn through 3K rounds in a short period of time.
ReplyDeleteBut even if you are scrupulous about policing your brass and you reload with bullets you cast from discarded wheelweights, $32 is peanuts.
Especially since even a "nonpremium" internal extractor should give you a minimum of 5K rounds - I would expect a Wilson Bulletproof to last closer to 10-15K. At those those round counts, the cost of a $32 extractor compared to the sum total of ammo, replacement magazines, and other parts is almost a rounding error. . .
Could well be hooey, just quoting department procedure. My Series 70 is still running strong on the original extractor 40 years later. I've long since thrown away the idiotic spring collet bushing and fitted something that works, but the extractor is still chugging away nicely.
ReplyDeleteI haven't kept a round count, but it's on it's third barrel, so figure upwards of 50k.
And I have no particular prejudice one way of another, although I think the external extractor is a tad easier on brass for us reloaders.
But if it works, why fix it? Who drops a loose round into the chamber in the middle of a firefight anyway, about the only advantage the external extractor has that I can think of.
That being said, I'll check out the Yam piece when I get home. Off to the shiny new job, where I have to look all kinds of efficient and timely.
Drang,
ReplyDelete"So, if I said "Alas, STAR went out of business" (actually, was killed by Brady and by nationalization) would I earn any snark...?"
Just a wistful sigh at the inherent injustice in the fact that the Spanish pistol manufacturers went under in reverse order of quality. :/