You know, I've theorized before on the maximum actual value of a rifle. After all you're paying for power and accuracy. The 50 BMG offers the ultimate in power, the McMillan heavy benchrest holds the record for that caliber in accuracy. so since the McMillan 50BMG Heavy benchrest is the ultimate in power and accuracy, and since this rifle retails for (last I checked) about $6000 or $7000 bucks. no rifle should cost much more than that. I might, if I cared about such things, make a $1000-$3000 allowance for engraving and polished walnut, but I'd just be terrified to scratch it. Maybe I can get some Hogue overmolds for my new H&H Grand Royal Double.
I have to admit that I can't see where the full cost comes from, either. It's not like it takes a person three years to hand-make it. It's not made of supremely rare materials, and it's not documented as being owned by Jesus himself. So...what's the deal?
It wouldn't shock me to find that a best-grade gun like that has the better part of half a man/year in it, when engraving and stock checkering and everything is added up.
Mostly, though, it's a Holland & Holland. Each one is a work of art. I mean, there's probably not but a few thousand dollars worth of marble in the Pieta, too.
Then again, some people pay huge bucks for a Swiss watch that won't keep time like a $25 Casio, and I don't get that, so it's probably one of those "to each their own" things...
I could never understand people who sink five digits in Gibson's "tribute" reproductions of star-guitars, with every little nick & gouge that Clapton or Page banged into theirs.
I've always been perfectly adept at that stuff all by myself.
"Everybody gets to go to hell in their own go-cart."
Tam said it best: It's a Holland and Holland. Ever look at Pope rifles? Looked like crowbars. Ugly as sin. Still winning competitions all over the world.
IIRC, there's something like 1000 man hours in the average H&H double.
I can easily believe 200K for the gun. Why? Well, first it's made in GB, so almost half that sticker price is going to the Crown. Now, add in the cost of master craftsman. Every damn part on that gun is "smoked" and hand fitted. $1000-3000 for Engraving? Are you on crack? You can't get that kind of engraving, from decent craftsman for that price HERE. Wood? Ever price high grade walnut? add in just 3-4K just for the wood. Stockmaking? My favorite stockmaker(I don't mean a guy with a duplicator) gets 3 grand, plus the cost of wood, and he's far from the "big names".
Now admittedly, H&H adds a "brand premium", but it's not as big as some of you think it is.
If it's all about form following function why did anyone ever buy a Jaguar? (The most expensive junk car money can buy.) Or a Delorean for that matter? The Delorean didn't perform well, and unless you were building a time-machine in it, the stainless steel body was an expense and a lot of work. (It is stain-LESS, not stain-free!)
The Corvette was available for less money, had better performance, looked better. So what?
Besides, if I could afford this, well, I might not buy H and H, but I would own some fine engraved weapons.
Years ago back when I visited England on a regular basis, (I've only been back once after they made handguns a Section Five firearm.) I toured Holland&Holland for a feature story for GUN WORLD. It was like a step back in time. I fully expected to meet some character from Charles Dickens working at one of the benches it was so antiquated.
Yeah, their guns are horribly overpriced and considering the ability and technology available with other manufacturers I'm not all that sure their quality is all that high in comparison.
However, they have their niche market and far be it for me to say it is pointless, but the waiting list when I visited was far more than 3 years and the cost back then was still well over $100,000 for a double rifle not counting fluctations in the exchange rate.
Tam, go look around Dressels, they have wood starting at 100 bucks, but the really nice stuff doesn't show up until around a grand. Their wood seems to top out in price around 4K. I have a Pattern 14 that at some point is going to be a 500 Jeffery. Even with me doing the metalwork, I still expect to Give Chic Worthing and Roger Kehr north of 7K between the two of them, on top of what Dressels gets out of me.
Now you see from some of the responses why I gave up the dream of building rifles for a living. The old Gunsmith/Pizza joke has more than an ounce of truth in it. It's why I decided there was more money in making parts than fitting them.
You guys are right, I've never priced premium walnut/engraving, but I like to use my guns and I think I'd have to shoot myself in the foot if I scratched a $100-200,000 rifle stock. Hell I'm a wimp and would probably cry over a scratch on a $15,000 weapon.
You know, I've theorized before on the maximum actual value of a rifle. After all you're paying for power and accuracy. The 50 BMG offers the ultimate in power, the McMillan heavy benchrest holds the record for that caliber in accuracy. so since the McMillan 50BMG Heavy benchrest is the ultimate in power and accuracy, and since this rifle retails for (last I checked) about $6000 or $7000 bucks. no rifle should cost much more than that. I might, if I cared about such things, make a $1000-$3000 allowance for engraving and polished walnut, but I'd just be terrified to scratch it. Maybe I can get some Hogue overmolds for my new H&H Grand Royal Double.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit that I can't see where the full cost comes from, either. It's not like it takes a person three years to hand-make it. It's not made of supremely rare materials, and it's not documented as being owned by Jesus himself. So...what's the deal?
ReplyDeleteIt wouldn't shock me to find that a best-grade gun like that has the better part of half a man/year in it, when engraving and stock checkering and everything is added up.
ReplyDeleteMostly, though, it's a Holland & Holland. Each one is a work of art. I mean, there's probably not but a few thousand dollars worth of marble in the Pieta, too.
Then again, some people pay huge bucks for a Swiss watch that won't keep time like a $25 Casio, and I don't get that, so it's probably one of those "to each their own" things...
I could never understand people who sink five digits in Gibson's "tribute" reproductions of star-guitars, with every little nick & gouge that Clapton or Page banged into theirs.
ReplyDeleteI've always been perfectly adept at that stuff all by myself.
"Everybody gets to go to hell in their own go-cart."
(Beck's Axiom of Pedagogic Reality)
{shrug}
Tam said it best: It's a Holland and Holland. Ever look at Pope rifles? Looked like crowbars. Ugly as sin. Still winning competitions all over the world.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, there's something like 1000 man hours in the average H&H double.
ReplyDeleteI can easily believe 200K for the gun. Why? Well, first it's made in GB, so almost half that sticker price is going to the Crown. Now, add in the cost of master craftsman. Every damn part on that gun is "smoked" and hand fitted. $1000-3000 for Engraving? Are you on crack? You can't get that kind of engraving, from decent craftsman for that price HERE. Wood? Ever price high grade walnut? add in just 3-4K just for the wood. Stockmaking? My favorite stockmaker(I don't mean a guy with a duplicator) gets 3 grand, plus the cost of wood, and he's far from the "big names".
Now admittedly, H&H adds a "brand premium", but it's not as big as some of you think it is.
HTRN,
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely amazing how many people have never priced a decent walnut stock blank, let alone a quality polishing & bluing job or engraving.
I still recall the look on a customer's face when I told him how much a full-bore Turnbull restoration on his '95 would cost him.
Thinking that you HAD to be wrong, I looked up the weight of a penny, and did the math myself... and came up with the exact same figure that you had.
ReplyDeleteWell, actually, it came to 109,128.9375 lbs, based on a penny weighing 0.088185 oz.
I shall never doubt you again.
The last time I checked, entry level engraving by Ruger on one of their single action revolvers STARTED at 5000.
ReplyDeleteAnd that was no where near the quality of this engraving.
If it's all about form following function why did anyone ever buy a Jaguar? (The most expensive junk car money can buy.) Or a Delorean for that matter? The Delorean didn't perform well, and unless you were building a time-machine in it, the stainless steel body was an expense and a lot of work. (It is stain-LESS, not stain-free!)
ReplyDeleteThe Corvette was available for less money, had better performance, looked better. So what?
Besides, if I could afford this, well, I might not buy H and H, but I would own some fine engraved weapons.
"Well, actually, it came to 109,128.9375 lbs, based on a penny weighing 0.088185 oz."
ReplyDeleteYeah, I rounded. :)
Years ago back when I visited England on a regular basis, (I've only been back once after they made handguns a Section Five firearm.) I toured Holland&Holland for a feature story for GUN WORLD. It was like a step back in time. I fully expected to meet some character from Charles Dickens working at one of the benches it was so antiquated.
ReplyDeleteYeah, their guns are horribly overpriced and considering the ability and technology available with other manufacturers I'm not all that sure their quality is all that high in comparison.
However, they have their niche market and far be it for me to say it is pointless, but the waiting list when I visited was far more than 3 years and the cost back then was still well over $100,000 for a double rifle not counting fluctations in the exchange rate.
All The Best,
Frank W. James
Tam, go look around Dressels, they have wood starting at 100 bucks, but the really nice stuff doesn't show up until around a grand. Their wood seems to top out in price around 4K. I have a Pattern 14 that at some point is going to be a 500 Jeffery. Even with me doing the metalwork, I still expect to Give Chic Worthing and Roger Kehr north of 7K between the two of them, on top of what Dressels gets out of me.
ReplyDeleteNow you see from some of the responses why I gave up the dream of building rifles for a living. The old Gunsmith/Pizza joke has more than an ounce of truth in it. It's why I decided there was more money in making parts than fitting them.
That "engraving", I believe they are trying to attract foreigners. The sort of people who would just buy a rifle they weren't even measured for.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, "All prices subject to the current rate of VAT at the time of purchase."
That's 19% on top, for the tax man. Is that included in your penny calculation?
You guys are right, I've never priced premium walnut/engraving, but I like to use my guns and I think I'd have to shoot myself in the foot if I scratched a $100-200,000 rifle stock. Hell I'm a wimp and would probably cry over a scratch on a $15,000 weapon.
ReplyDelete