I'll be up front and admit that I still don't get the point. .22WMR is in that gray area where it's marginal as an antipersonnel round, but will turn a squirrel or rabbit inside out, making it a bit too much for hunting small game for the pot. It's obviously better on varmints than .22LR, but so are lots of things, like .22 Hornet, which is reloadable.
It's also almost as expensive as centerfire handgun ammo, which makes it less than suitable for plinking, and its operating pressures require more robust and/or sophisticated designs than the humble .22LR, as can be witnessed by the discontinuation of most straight-blowback .22 Magnum rifles here in the modern United States of Liability.
Still, a 30-round magazine does cover a multitude of sins, and both weapons were pleasant to shoot. The suppressed carbine was quietish and seemed accurate at the pistol ranges at which I was shooting, and the pistol was stupid easy to shoot: Like a Ruger MkII with a really big muzzle blast. Even going really really fast, you could keep the rounds on a pie plate. I was actually very pleasantly surprised by the trigger.
Like I said, I'm still not certain what exactly it's for, but you know what? If I had to buy a lightweight plastic pistol that fired a high-velocity smallbore cartridge of questionable utility from a large capacity magazine, I think I'd be foolish to spend twice and more the price of the Kel-Tec on an FN Five-seveN.
Zombie killer.
ReplyDeleteHow stiff is the slide?
ReplyDeleteJeff at Gunblast put it in the niche as a defensive gun for people who might have physical disabilities that keep them away from the more conventional centerfires, and DA triggers of wheel guns.
.22 WMR isn't much of a man-stopper indeed, but with a crisp SA trigger, low recoil and muzzle climb, a 30 round box probably will amount in at least ONE round finding something vital.
I liked the PMR quite a bit. Amazingly light, good sights, easy to rapid fire and HOLYCRAP30ROUNDSISALOT. A .22LR version would be be a swell option.
ReplyDeleteAn online amigo bought one asap, he rides a bicycle thru the Ozarks and is constantly set upon by 'mean yard dogs'. This is now his 'mean yard dog' gun.
ReplyDeleteI think a kit gun or bike gun is the ideal use for it. That 1911 gets HEAVY on a long hike and 30 rounds as you say, covers up a lot of sins.
ReplyDeleteWeer'd,
ReplyDeleteTam has more experience with guns than I ever aspire to, so I hope she answers you question. With my really banged up shoulder that, even with the hip-swinging trick, still finds racking most 1911's painful - I have no problem, no pain, and no worries racking the PMR30.
Most 22WMR is very inefficient from the short barrel -- though terminal ballistics still improve on most 5.7 rounds and cost half as much. Hornady and CCI are now making JHPs optimized for the short barrels. 1500-1600fps from pistol with 40gr bullets isn't perfect for defense but it is far more adequate than unjacketed 22LR. And having 30-31 rounds before reload in a gun that weighs 19oz fully loaded can be quite useful for the recoil-sensitive. PMR30 trigger is quite nice.
ReplyDeleteRMR30 is more efficient with 22WMR and gets somewhere around 1900-2100fps, depending on the bullet weight. It opens up rimfire range from roughly 75m to 125m. With bullet weight about double of 17HMR, it retains useful effect at that range. It's also useful as low-recoil defensive carbine -- again, inferior to most centerfires but superior to 22LR and as easy to shoot. As with Coonan 357, I had no appreciation for 22WMR until I tried it -- and it turned out to be fun to shoot and possibly even useful :-)
The pistol would be perfect for my uncle, as he's lost a lot of muscle in his arms due to illness over the decades. He's to the point where even a 9mm or non +P .38 is tough to use. A .22LR or .22WMR would be better for him. Now, if Kel-Tec would hurry up and fix the production problems...
ReplyDeleteBecause most gun owners are ALL about pragmatic:-)!
ReplyDeleteMy immediate thought upon seeing it was "backpacker's gun." No, it's not adequate for bears or men, but it's a damned sight better than an empty hand or your hunting knife, and as you said, 30 rounds covers a lot of sins. It's light, would fill the pot easily, and could be used to signal, with its many rounds and loud report.
ReplyDeleteI've only been able to shoot one example a few months ago and the trigger pull seemed quite excessive to me (8#'s+ at a guess) even for an essentially out-of-the-box gun which this one wasn't. What I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the magazines became noticably difficult to load after ~20 rounds. Difficult as in cartridges becoming mis-aligned in the stack, not just spring tension. Unlike the gun itself, the plastic mag's I got to try seemed too flimsy for the design, they would expand (bow out at the sides) unless extra care was taken to keep them compressed while inserting the final 8-10 rounds. Not a show-stopper, but definately adds a level of difficulty to the whole shooting process, I thought.
ReplyDeleteAnybody else notice this, or did I (the guy who let me shoot his gun actually) get defective mags?
I like 22WMR so, money allowing I'll probably get one of each someday, but no real sense of urgency about it any more.
Old mags (black) were not very good. New (gray) work much better. Loading 25 is easy, 26-30 are a bit annoying. PMR30 trigger was about 3.5lbs in pre-production version, 4.5 in production variant and very crisp.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side, you can buy a FiveSeveN.
ReplyDeleteBut there's still wait-lists for the PMR-30, last time I looked into it.
I'd love to hear that Kel-Tec had managed to ramp up production of all of their nifty toys, but they seem to... never manage that.
(One reason I'm not drooling over their .308 and their weird 12 gauge.
Nice guns. But I have no confidence in availability and the prices are way too high.)
Used to call the Grendel the POS-30. Kel-Tec must've improved it because you said it actually, you know, worked.
ReplyDeleteAs to what "function" it serves? Your answer is right there in the first three letters of the word, and that in itself is enough...although as some have said it would make a great packer.
Now if Henry would just swipe or buy the design and actually get them into willing buyers' hands at a good price? I'll buy that.
AT
I used to know a retired Detroit-area cop, and Maricopa County (AZ) investigator who carried the FN, because he always thought the 'bad guys' would come in groups wearing ballistic vests.
ReplyDeleteAND the many BBs.
wv: chestio - an adult take on breakfast cereal?
Have a major bad case of the wants over one of these...
ReplyDeleteMy best figurin' and head scratchin' leads me to assume that while you may not gain anything significant velocity-wise from using WMR over .22LR, you would probably gain quite a bit of magazine feeding reliability.
ReplyDeleteI'm not an early adopter by any means but if this thing isn't a stinkeroo I'm going to get at least one of them. Even if that means a new rimfire to stock.
With most 22wmr ammo, you get 1250fps from the pistol (matching 22lr rifle), except for the specialized loads which get about 1400-1450fps. With rifle, you still get 1250-1300fps from 22lr but about 2000fps from rifle with wmr, which is a big difference. You pay for the difference in ammo cost (2-3x when comparing similar quality ammo) and noise, but you gain range and terminal performance. Makes no sense for just shooting paper but plenty of sense for varmints.
ReplyDeleteI would think that if this was accurate, it would make an awesome mid-range prairie dog/ ground hog rifle. Hopefully it's a much lower price point then the Desert Eagle or Volquartsen.
ReplyDeleteBuild me an autoshucker in .22 Hornet or even .22 K-Hornet, and I'll buy it in a New York Minute.
ReplyDeleteIn a handgun the Five-seveN is 40 gr bullet at 2009 fps. Kel-Tec claims it's PMR-30 with a 40gr .22WMR is at 1230fps.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/
Also see TTAG's review of the Five-SeveN where Farrago claims that is has a kick "like a slightly peeved gerbil" http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/08/robert-farago/gun-review-fn-five-seven/ Though I do have to take issue with his comments about using the 27gr and the ammo price. He was using the "lead free = outrageously priced" crap. We pay about 39¢ a round, while .22 WMR in 40gr is available for about 25¢ a round.
My wife loves her Five-seveN and PS90
>With most 22wmr ammo, you get 1250fps from the pistol (matching 22lr rifle),...
ReplyDeleteYea Oleg, I should have said that I was keenly interested in the handgun only. I really wanted a Grendel P30, though I'm glad that I didn't get one. There were a lot of duds and I'm just firearms-lucky enough to get a lemon, (built on the assembly line on a Tuesday after a hard drinking 3 day weekend).
Anyway, that was my guess why the P30 was WMR. The extra length of the cartridge probably allows better feeding in a "fishtailed", straight-walled, inside the grip magazine. Otherwise you triple your ammo cost, use less available ammo, and have little to show for it in ballistic gain.
Bob H,
ReplyDeleteWhat is this "Elite ProtecTOR" ammo to which he refers? Let's use the velocity for the SS197 ammo that people actually buy and shoot.
And what am I reading Farrago's review for? I know how a Five-seveN recoils, based on the half dozen or so that I've shot. You're right, there's not much recoil at all.
But as Oleg points out, with newer, short-barrel-optimized .22WMR loads, you're getting 1500+ pfs as opposed to the ~16-1700 fps I've usually seen from SS197. I just don't see the big difference.
Tam, you are right about the velocity. I hadn't looked at what ammunition was used for the 2,000fps rating. (mea culpa).
ReplyDeleteThe "Elite ProtecTOR" ammunition is one of several pricey 5.7 loads manufactured by Elite Ammunition.
http://www.eliteammunition.net/home.html
They appear to be a small manufacturer who make precision loads for several calibers but the 5.7 loads are their largest selection. If you don't want to buy CorBon's 5.7s, Elite is the only other choice I have found.
.22 mag is a poodle shooter. It's the perfect round for feral or rabid dogs or similar sized big cats. Fox and coyote too. It'd be a good kit or farm gun. And in a pinch, it'd ruin a two-legged predator's day too. It's just too bad nobody treats it with the respect it deserves by giving it a proper Browning short recoil or rotating barrel action. I'll stick with my Ruger Single Six.
ReplyDeleteRotary would work, but getting that long, skinny cartridge to feed reliably in a tilting-barrel short recoil action would be a beast...
ReplyDeleteIts anti-personnel utility comes from its ability to spit a lot of lead in a short period of time. A single piece of buckshot isn't a man-stopper either, but a lot at once is very dangerous.
ReplyDeleteThink of these weapons as a poor-man's submachine gun. Wouldn't a .22WMR full-auto be pretty effective? Well, the only difference between these and a full auto is a tired trigger finger! :)
And, ===dammit, I still want one.
ReplyDeleteJerry
Console gun for the truck. Upon being ambushed by riot, hand gun to daughter, hand daughter two spare mags. Daughter lays about her with gusto. By the time she's changing mags, I should have a sidefolder AK loaded for her, and a takedown riot gun loaded for me, and still have two pistol mags for backup plus my pistol.
ReplyDelete