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Thursday, March 22, 2012
More Gun Content:
This video sets me off down two trains of thought.
First, that's one of the unintended consequences of modular, easy to detail-strip pistols supported by a huge and burgeoning aftermarket: The democratization of f***-ups.
It used to be that you needed a file, an Arkansas stone, maybe a Dremel, and a fair amount of mechanical ineptitude to mess up your heater. Now any yob with a punch, a YouTube video, and enough manual dexterity to tie his own shoes can shoot himself in the grape with a runaway gun. You can buy drop-in mistakes; no gunsmith fitting required!
Second, how come so many gun schools feel like I'm watching remakes of Top Gun, but with Glocks instead of Tomcats? Call signs? Seriously? "Hollywood, this is Maverick. We are low on Gatorade and target pasters. I say again, we are low on Gatorade and target pasters. Over." And all the jargon, oy veh!
No longer is it good enough to run the slide on your pistol; these guys want you to powerstroke your weapons system. (Which sounds like something you'd do while watching the DVDs I mentioned in the previous post, but that's neither here nor there.)
I'm a forty-something freelance writer/internet dork. I am paying you to learn how to shoot, not to soak up some of that "jumping-out-of-a-helicopter-with-a-knife-in-my-teeth" ambiance. The whole GI Joe schtick just feels a little silly at my age.
The sad part is that word through the grapevine is that these guys are actually good instructors. I guess they're just aiming for a different target demographic. Maybe 23-year-old Call of Duty players eat that "fantasy basic training" stuff up, I don't know.
The whole GI Joe schtick just feels a little silly at my age.
ReplyDeleteOh that's just 'cause your callsign is Tambourine.
:) Tambourine
ReplyDeleteAnd that in a nutshell is why I will never go to a gun school to learn how to shoot.
ReplyDeleteGmac
Gmac,
ReplyDeleteThat's a complete non sequitur.
"That Yugo sucked, which is why I will never buy a car."
I've never seen any of that with, for example, Jarrett, Awerbuck, or TLG. You can go read the AARs of all the guys who took the one-days from Tom Givens or TigerSwan, and see that nobody reported any of that nonsense.
"The whole GI Joe schtick just feels a little silly at my age."
ReplyDeleteI wonder how much of that crap is wannabe soldier types, that either distrust the government or understand that they don't have the discipline to actually, like, you know -- join the Army. The Marines. The Air Force. The Navy. The Coast Guard. The National Guard.
The local Sheriff or Police department.
Wanting to be a soldier, but not care about serving your community and country, or being ready to join in defense against actual enemies. Yep. Fantasy time. I guess that for them it is better to stumble into can't-go-back-again life choices than to choose a direction in life.
Watching them is kinda like rooting for Donald Duck in a cartoon adventure.
Tamurlane
ReplyDeleteThe mystery runs deeper here. It used to be that you needed writing and directing skills, plus hard-to-get knowledge of how to run a camera and then edit the resulting footage before Cletus could air a spot that would be spectacularly devastating to his reputation. Usually it involved all sorts of meetings where someone would say "Do you really think it's a good idea to go with this footage?"
This isn't that, and I guess this may be useful as a warning to some - although probably it will only be watched by people who don't need to be warned.
My money is that for every "hey, it's dangerous when you do this" video on Youtube, there are 1000 "hey hold mah beer" ones.
The funny thing to me is, when you strip out all the slang, they actually sound like they would be competent instructors. They werent giving sooper-seekrit GSG Team 6 "advice" that is likely to get you killed, arrested, or both. Just basic, run of the mill stuff. Use a reliable weapon that you have tested...not some hacked up "target" gun.
ReplyDelete"Needing to belong..."
ReplyDeleteTribal schtick & other shizz for kewl guys, I guess.
And mebbe too many video games and uber-warrior film fantasies.
I dunno...mebbe it's just the need for group identification stylin', that goes tight back to who has the coolest rock.
What ever happened to " release the slide catch after reloading at slidelock"? All this grab-n-tug teh slide stuff fits right in with "you must break yourneck lookin' over both sholders for teh ninjas you know are there" crap. Any ideas on what happened w/the Glock, Tam? JohninMd(help)
ReplyDeletePower stroke? But then I have never been to a shooting school for pistols, and I am too old for Glocks (although I should learn enough about them to put on the safety).
ReplyDeleteNow, about those DVDs? Haven't gotten to that post yet.
"The whole GI Joe schtick just feels a lot silly at my age. You say it so well."
JohnInMD,
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to wade into that jihad. Suffice it to say that I've gone from 'slide stop' to 'always run the slide' and back to 'slide stop' over time, so whatever people want to do to make themselves happy is cool with me.
Indeed, and agreed! O:-) JohninMd(help)
DeleteEarl,
ReplyDelete"I am too old for Glocks (although I should learn enough about them to put on the safety)."
I See What You Did There. :D
The (somewhat weathered) instructor who did Basic Pistol for me advised to run the slide to avoid wear on the slide release to the point that it won't catch the slide back.
ReplyDeleteThat video honestly did make me dislike the "instructors" more than the student that did some work on his gun. "Buck Rogers Shit"? F___ you Hollywood, my Apex Parts in my guns make them a crapload more usable, and it's my ass, not yours, that has to deal with any consequences. I wonder if my textured backstrap on my M&P would make his head asplode?
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as the whole "powerstroke vs. slide release" argument... I'm pretty sure that got hashed out months ago (and I'm pretty sure he was mostly ruled in the wrong if your gun has a slide release...)
At least some good came from the video. I know who's school I'm not going to.
I'm still giggling at 'powerstroke'.
ReplyDeleteI'm just waiting for Cummins to sue the instructor for using the term "power stroke" over and over.
ReplyDelete-SouthpawByNW
Earl, I just checked. My Glocks have the same safety that my S&W revolvers (older ones) have. Easy, peasevy. :)
ReplyDeletetamarind?
ReplyDeletetam-o-shanter?
TAM International
www.tamintl.com/
Jan 13, 2011 – TAM International is an independent oilfield service company providing Inflatable and Swellable Packers, and other downhole products ...
I won't even mention the hole-in-the wall Black-Chinese restaurant in Phoenix...
Just ran TAM on Google. Funny what one finds...?
This is why I'm shy of the whole "drop in parts" industry myself. You are putting in parts into a gun designed by someone who did not originally engineer the design of the gun ... and may have never talked to the engineer who designed the gun.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of an instructor who wrote that every one who carries a gun needs to be a warrior and that if one did not have the proper warrior mentality they had no business carrying a gun.
ReplyDeleteI also thought "Powerstroke" was a big Ford pickup truck. Boy, the things you learn when you go back to school with kids who have pagers and helicopter parents, not to mention cell-phones in class!
ReplyDeleteI guess my "somewhat affection" for the kit-nature of toaster parts stems mostly from a hazy memory of the good-ol' days of Revelle models, and the gasoline (and sandbox) in which to (semi-safely) burn them. That was as square as my square-range ever was. Safely installing a rear sight is as detail as I strip - believe me I don't strip-well anymore.
Also as never having been a Gi-Joe with the Kung-Fu Grip fighting Kobra, the command and call-sign stuff reminds me more of playground nick-names like "Booger-Nose" and "Tits" - something intentionally with (often quite) a bit of an edge, and other far less-appealing playground epithets - so I fail to grok the deep-appeal thereof among Male adult-age semi-socialized bipeds.
As a fifty-something I want to take the class that will help me shoot the best, not shout call-signs or head-swivel, and especially-not one that speaks in a language and identity-heuristics entirely of their own...
Powerstroke. Really?
ReplyDeleteSounds like a bad '70's porno with big hair to me.
I can't download the video at work. What happened? Did he get a slam fire malfunction?
ReplyDeleteIt happens sometimes. I've never had a runaway, but I have had a pistol triple tap on me once, and it scares the bleeping bejeezus out of you. When you shoot as much as I do, you're bound to have these sorts of things occur (like my aforementioned hangfires that also scared the crap out of me)
The pistol in question belonged to the range at which I was firing on that lovely day. The only thing i could think is that it wasn't maintained real well and the firing pin got sticky and stuck in the "fire" position, so the intertia from the slide slamming closed was enough to smash the firing pin into the next round in line and set it off. I figured that after the third shot, the firing pin jarred loose and the runaway effect stopped. I wasn't pulling the trigger as it did this, so I can only assume that had the pin not come dislodged, that it would have stopped only when it had consumed the entire clip of ammunition.
I don't know enough about automatics to be sure, but after thinking on it a long time, this is the conclusion that I came to.
Tam, do you think that is what happened here, too? Or do you know of some other malfunction that causes this stuff to happen?
Oh, and mall ninja-ness of all types makes me sick to my stomach. it is even worse when it is displayed by people that obviously know better, as it sounds like the case in the video.
Goober,
ReplyDeleteThere's discussion of the mechanics of what may have happened by folks more up to speed on Glock innards and aftermarket parts than I am over at P-F.com:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3602-Why-it-s-good-to-exercise-caution-in-modifying-your-firearm
As far as your report, that sounds like a stuck-firing-pin slamfire, alright. Especially if it was a filthy rental gun.
ReplyDeleteActually, I think it'd be great fun to go to a fantasy Army camp where you got to try all the cool stuff and make loud noises without paying in pain, sweat, or blood.
ReplyDeleteBut I wouldn't confuse it with serious training.
The saddest thing about the video is that the Falcon Group guys are apparently pretty legit, but because of all the silliness in this video it makes it very difficult to take them seriously.
ReplyDeleteI am amused by the "fantasy Army" and related comments. I guess taking advanced firearms training from experienced (often ex-SF) instructors is fantasy. But mopping floors, burning latrines and firing a few dozen rounds on a known distance range is real training.
ReplyDeleteGood to know.
Rob
Rob,
ReplyDelete"I am amused by the "fantasy Army" and related comments. I guess taking advanced firearms training from experienced (often ex-SF) instructors is fantasy."
I believe you are missing the point (or, at least, my point, since I can't speak for anybody else's...)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting advanced firearms training from ex-HSLD guys. I'd jump at a chance for a class with any one of a half-dozen of the .mil rock stars.
Oddly, very few of them do the whole "running laps and pushups in the mud while getting yelled at" pseudo boot camp nonsense. Interestingly enough, the two gun schools best known for that silliness are run by guys who were never in the military.
But mopping floors, burning latrines and firing a few dozen rounds on a known distance range is real training.
ReplyDeleteOnly if it's done in a pouring rain in 40 degree temps. THATs "Good Training" tm. ;-)
Thank you. When he first started talking about Powerstroking I thought I had just suffered a stroke and suddenly forgot everything I ever knew about handguns.
ReplyDelete"Powerstroke. Powerstroke. Should I know what that is? Oh God, I think I'm supposed to know what that is!"
It's karmna for every time I told a student to Run The Slide and got a blank look.
That shit is the reason the old guys at my club insist on a 5 round magazine limit. I've never seen it actually happen until this.
ReplyDelete"Power stroke?"
ReplyDeleteI heard sometime around middle school if I did that too much I'd go blind.
Goober:
ReplyDeletewhat model pistol did you have the problem with?
I would expect that most pistols would jam with an exposed firing pin, as the cartridge would stop sliding up the breechface during the chambering process as the rim hit the protruding pin.
I could see a dirty striker fired gun going FA, with a less than properly captured striker slipping loose from the impact of the slide going home.
Buck Rogers, huh?
ReplyDeleteYou mean the 1928 comic?
To the authors of that the bone stock Glock is beyond their wildest imaginings of where guns would be in 84 years.
Sci Fi tends to miss way low or way high. They either expect no significant changes (cough Traveller) or ray guns by now.
Or do you think they mean the early '80's "festive" Buck Rogers TV show?
Didn't Olofson go to prison for "transferring" a "machine gun" i.e., loaning a malfunctioning semi-auto. Didn't the owner of the subject pistol just do the same thing?
ReplyDeleteTampopo, Agent Tampopo.
ReplyDeleteWill,
ReplyDeleteDepends on a host of things, including the type of pistol, how far forward the firing pin is stuck, if the firing pin is free to slide forward further but can't retract far for the FP block to engage, the contour of the FP nose... Hard to say without seeing the gun in question.
Bob R,
I thought the Olofson decision turned on claims that he knew it was broken and thus full auto, and rather than taking it to get it fixed, kept it that way and even went so far as to willingly loan it out with a "wink, nudge, hey this is a machine gun"? (Or at least that's what the BATFEIEIO was alleging, no?)
"Falcon?" "Hollywood?" WTF? That's just too weird for me...
ReplyDeleteAs to modifying your own guns, there's a reason I either keep the internals on my gun stock or have someone qualified do the work.
I may (or may not) be dangerous with a pistol, but I know I'm dangerous with a Dremel (to myself).
I've also been around long enough to know that "drop in" parts are a lie. "Drop in" really means, "needs some fitting" and "needs some fitting" really means "gunsmith required."
Springs? Sure. Replace broken firing pin? Sure. Heck, I'll even put on new sights. But mess with the parts that make it go bang, like the trigger/sear/hammer, no way.
A man's gotta know his limitations and mucking with the guts of my pistols is where I draw the line.
You and I have grown up just a little bit early for the online persona, Tam. The issue is not that the guys are gamers, or GI-Joe wanna-be's. It's that they have online personalities (which is why you see them) and they maintain them in the vidjo.
ReplyDeleteI went by Long Path on The Firing Line for years and years, because when I first signed up, I didn't know if I would want to allow myself to be traceable. You went by Tam. I would submit that "Tam" is a very subtly different person than Tamara K___, if only because "Tam" exists mostly on the InterWeb, while Tamara K___ exists entirely in the Real World.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletemy gun range nom de guerre would be "burrito".
ReplyDeleteI'm curious as to how much of the moniker business was hokum for the sake of having fun.
ReplyDeleteTwo weeks from tomorrow and every day is a Friday, so I'm skeptical as hell about the smallest things...and hope like hell I don't f up too bad between now & then.
Good info can be found in that video, as well as some goodies upon which any can hang the "I hope I don't act like that" label.
As a grumpy old bachelor, I prefer to hang out with the grumpy old spinsters.
ReplyDeleteI watch the video and read the comments and came up wth thoughts from three perspectives:
ReplyDeleteDon’t modify your carry weapon – period. Find one that fits your carry style, learn the weapon, use it and then leave it the heck alone. If ya wanna play with your gun – do it on a competition gun, not one you depend on to protect you. I think this tendency comes from the “merging” of IDPA (and other competitions) and the real world. I believe it’s important to keep both in their respective places.
“Falcon”, “Hollywood” – really?? I’m gonna give my hard earned cash to a bird and a back-up WSO?? Really, if you’re an instructor – use your own name. There are no secret conspiracies out there looking to hunt you down. I suspect it’s the “Call to Duty” client that laps this up. Given that I’m an official C.O.G. (Crotchety Old Guy) it detracts from their image as an instructor. They may have all the “been there – done that”, “I saw the elephant” experience – but callsigns detract from their image as a professional.
Finally, perhaps it’s 21 years in the military, but – before a course – take a shave bud. Honest to goodness I’m so damn tired of the “5 o’clock” he-man look or the “lion cut” look or the shaggy “Seal Team 6” look. Be a professional, shave your face, cut your hair, wear clean clothes, unwrinkled pants - - - - geezz, I sound like my mom!
Rant off!
Will;
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't remember. It was a range gun that a guy that I was shooting with had rented and was having trouble with, and it was over a decade ago. I never figured out what happened to the damned thing, but what I posted above was my theory.
needless to say, we turned it back in and got my friend's money back...
The Olofson case set the precedent that if your gun fires more than one shot per trigger pull, whether it was a malfunction or not, it is a machine gun and you can be sent to jail.
ReplyDeletei thought this was pretty ballsy of these guys to post this online given that precedent. The BATFEIEIO is currently operating under the policy that if you slap the trigger on your grandpas old damascus steel double barrel and both barrels go off, then you have a machine gun, there, pal, and you're going to prison.
The Olofson case happened to have some local LEOS there when the gun went haywire, which is why he got charged and these guys probably won't. BUt the fact is, the ATF is under the impression that it does not matter if it was a malfuntion or not - they will get you.
Goober,
ReplyDelete"The Olofson case set the precedent that if your gun fires more than one shot per trigger pull, whether it was a malfunction or not, it is a machine gun and you can be sent to jail."
To the best of my knowledge, that's the way it has always been. The charge against Olofson was that he knew it was busted, knew it was an accidental machine gun, and left it that way on purpose, therefore there was an element of mens rea to the whole thing.
"Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, here, borrow my gun. Don't tell anybody it's broken in such a way that if you do this-and-such, it goes full auto, repeatedly and predictably," is different from "Babababap! Whoah, dang, better put this thing away and get it to the gunsmith's on Monday, 'cause something's all messed up about it," after all.
eiaftinfo,
ReplyDelete"Don’t modify your carry weapon – period."
Not meaning any disrespect, but I can't remember the last time I carried a bone-stock gun. :o
Bone-stock/new-in-box, etc, just means it's an unfinished gun to me! Now it's time to do the detail work...
ReplyDeleteTam - no offense taken. :) Bone-Stock eh - hummmm. Well - reminder - I'm a C.O.G., and over the years I have seen more than my fair share of shooters with weapons they have personally modified, cause they wanted it tuned just right, on the firing line with failure after failure after failure. Finally, they just can't wait to pack it in because they need to get to their shop to tweak on their weapon. Meantime, those with stock weapons just seem to keep on shooting. Again, just my observations. :)
ReplyDeleteeiaftinfo,
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what a C.O.G. is, but I've only been in the gun biz since '93, so I probably haven't encountered it yet. ;)
I'm not taking the Apex RAM out of my M&P9, though, no matter what. :)
Another comment consigned to the black hole of the intert00bz...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, as I was saying--or said--"Hollywood" is a not-uncommon epithet in the military. It's printable and everything. Granted Drill Sergeant Daily didn't give it quite the same, um, emphasis as they did when they turned "Hero" into a four letter word...
Usually applied for someone who seems overly concerned about how they look. Apt for the guy who looks good on camera. Who may, after all, have done Boot at MCRD San Diego...
And, hey, if the narrator identifies himself as "Falcon", who knows, maybe that's his name? (A quick web search for "Falcon Group" had too many hits to figure out which I wanted...)
I can't help wondering if they told the client that they were going to make a YouTube video about how badly he'd screwed up his pistol.
And, frankly, if they ask me if I had any "Buck Rogers Bullshit" on my pistol, I'd probably walk out. Or ask him what he had against laser sites.
Drang,
ReplyDeleteOh, I speak the lingo fine, I'm just getting cranky, that's all.
At least I didn't tell him to get off my lawn. ;)
Tam, Actually, it's an orginal term that I coined quite some time back: C.O.G. - Crotchety Old Guy. While you have not met many since '93, I have met my fair share since '68. In fact, I seem to be meeting more and more every year! :)
ReplyDeleteActually, the Olafson case ended up revolving around a few basic facts:
ReplyDelete1. Unimpeached testimony that indicated that he knew the gun would go "ratta-tat-tat".
2. Unimpeached testimony that the manufacturer (while they did use some surplus M16 parts in some guns) NEVER used the collection of parts that were found in the Olafson gun, indicating they gun hadn't left the factory that way. (The particular combination of parts in Olafson's gun is a long-known combination that CAN result in full auto firing in an AR15 receiver.) Since Olafson was the first retail owner of the rifle, that somewhat limits the routes by which those parts were installed in the gun. . .
3. Absolutely ZERO evidence entered to indicate any actual parts malfunction by wear or breakage -- Olafson's expert witness basically tried to make the case that the ONLY way an AR15 (semiauto receiver) could be induced to fire fully automatically was via a "malfunction". Hmmm. . . I guess that drop in auto sears, lightning links, and other types of "machinegun conversion kits" don't exist in his world?
There is of course the claim you often hear of, "They used soft-primer ammo to rig the test results!" Actually, the people who cry this the loudest have it exactly BACKWARDS -- when tested with the WRONG ammunition (milspec 5.56, with typical hard primers), the gun didn't exhibit full automatic function. . . when tested with off the shelf US civilian production SAAMI-spec .223 Remington ammo (with STANDARD primers), as the gun was actually chambered for, it was capable of readily reproduceable full auto functioning.
IF Olafson's rifle had actually broken or malfunctioned, all he would have had to do to avoid a charge would be to chuck the bad parts and replace them -- in other words, spend about $50 - $60 bucks, total.
Geodkyt