The only thing I can see to criticize about the P30 is its priciness, and perhaps the mag release for those who fear James Bond will get the drop on them and leave them with only one point-blank shot center of mass. And unless one is actually on the Teams or in LEO, the standard V3 trigger pull is far more likely to spare one an embarrassing trip to the ER in a real life draw situation than to hamper one's style. Plenty of time to make that long first trigger pull while acquiring the sight picture....while Ed noted
Seeing some comments about the scarcity of H&K P30 magazines, I searched on the phrase "H&K P30 magazines". The first item yielded was:http://www.hkparts.net/extendedwebgobbledegookredactedI have written before that the reason I am carrying an M&P at this point is because I walked into a gun show some years back with the intention of buying the first good Glock 19 or full-size M&P 9 I found for four bills or less. I found one of each, but the Glock was beat to hell and had those wretched XS Big Dots* and only came with one mag, while the M&P was LNIB with two. Yeah, I planned on replacing the sights anyway, but until I did, I'd rather deal with the conventional 3-dots on the M&P than the short bus sights on the G-lock.
The thing about the Glock and M&P is that, not only are they perfectly serviceable pistols, but they are practically ubiquitous. The only ones in the industry that come close to that level of aftermarket support (other than the 1911, which could rate a separate post, actually) are the XD, which I cordially dislike for reasons which largely no longer apply, but let's just say our relationship is... tainted, and the P-series SIGs.
Although the days of internet delivery do lessen dependence on the stocking proclivities of the local gun shop, there's still travel. If I'm anywhere from Rochester, IN to the high plains of Colorado, the local gun store is likely to have accessories, mags, holsters, and whatnot for the Glock or M&P**. Not necessarily a big deal, but it's reassuring.
Of somewhat more relevance is the fact that, for any new type of accessory, it's the Glock and then M&P kids who usually get served first. The others get it later, if at all. I think that Crimson Trace's Lasergrip is handier than a pocket on a shirt, but if you want one for your P30, well, tough bananas.
But this is stuff that's important to me, and might not be all that important to you. I think the P30 is a better pistol than the M&P 9 in nearly any quantifiable way, but not enough to offset certain intangibles I care about. I think if you want to rock... well, whatever it is you want to rock, then get down with your bad self. The only person who has to be comfortable with my shopping choices is myself.
*Not to rehash the whole XS thing but, the usual argument is that, yeah, it might be slower and harder to use well on small or distant targets, but it's Really Fast! on close, wide open ones. So, you mean that in situations where I really need my sights, they're harder to use, but in situations where a coarse muzzle index is really all I need, I've got these sights on my gun because something or other? Ooookay.
** Of course, this is a generalization. Right now, for instance, all the M&P 9 full size mags on the market have apparently fallen into a black hole. Good thing I had, like, nine or ten already...
All the Full sized M&P 9 mags currently produced are being shipped to a small gunstore in Syracuse KS from where they are being smuggled into Colorado by Mule train for the freedom fighters behind the lines .
ReplyDeleteAs someone who enjoys an H&K from time to time, I actually agree with your laments on the H&K, especially about the lack of a .22 trainer. I have no problem with honest (key word) criticism.
ReplyDelete- Drifter
I've sort of stalled in my reading through all the old blog posts (up to the latter half of 2007 IIRC).
ReplyDeleteHaven't gotten into your transition from 1911 to M&P yet.
Looking forward to reading it since I'm going through my own journey from revolver guy to 1911 guy.
I won't ever abandon the wheelgun completely. Just slipping the SP-101 into a front pocket is so danged convenient and comfortable.
Well, this is the internets, and I'm pretty sure there's an old RFC somewhere or maybe the original cocktail napkin ARPANET router spec at BB&N where it says that, actually, everybody has to be comfortable with your shopping choices.
ReplyDeleteOr if not, people sure as hell act like it.
My wife shot a P30 one day and used it to clear a rack of steel in record time. It was impressive enough that she walked up to me and said, "Get me one."
ReplyDeleteBut it's not a carry piece. She has a Glock and a Sig for that. It's a good gun for her to shoot with, for fun. She has the long slide and it's a trite big for her to carry (she is a small person). I'm sure others could carry it, but we tend to like carrying things that we don't mind getting beat up, and that can be fixed easy enough without a specialist.
We like her HK. It's pretty. It outshoots nearly every other 9mm we have. But it's a bit upmarket (and big) for us to carry. For everyday use, we prefer pedestrian over awesome.
If that makes sense.
Tam, not to pick nits, but you cannot get a full size M&P 9 mag in Colorado currently due to politicians and stupidity.
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested in knowing the reason for your dislike of the XD. I ended up with one (5" 45acp) several months ago and find it "OK". A little bigger and bulkier then needed given the max 10 round limit here in Kalifornia but not totally out of bounds.
ReplyDeleteNow I do have to say that while I have never shot a S&W MP9 I've handled a few alongside 1911's, Glocks and XD's at gun stores and it is possible that the MP is, for me, the best handling of the bunch. So much so that if my Kahr CW9 ever gets back from the factory it will probably head on down the road in trade and be replaced by a S&W MP 9.
I agree, Tam, that the Glock and the M&P are "perfectly serviceable pistols." I would say further that there is a diminishing returns factor in pursuing the coolest thing, or the latest thing.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that once you have something adequate in hand, it is absurdity to speak of "more adequate." A thing is adequate or it isn't.
The underlying goal is to be well armed to protect one's self, which purpose can be answered by any number of designs. The Browning Hi Power (1935) isn't all that much off the standard of the latest wonder nines, and there is some coot wandering around out here who feels he is tolerably well armed with an old .357. (Wait, that's me!)
"Tam, not to pick nits, but you cannot get a full size M&P 9 mag in Colorado currently due to politicians and stupidity."
ReplyDeleteWell, it'd probably be a ten rounder, but it would fit in the gun.
**But Tam, didn't you know that the 10, 17, and 30-something round capacity PROMAGS are out and readily available for the M&P9? What, you don't want to use the only mags I've seen able to cause my USP to choke?
ReplyDeletedo u even derp, bro?
It's a tale of optimization. When you optimize for one thing, you pessimize for something else. If you optimize for speed, you pessimize for memory use. If you optimize for quality, you pessimize for price. This took me a long time to understand.
ReplyDeleteAnd to add to that, as Knuth said, "Premature optimization is the root of all evil."
ReplyDelete"Tam, not to pick nits, but you cannot get a full size M&P 9 mag in Colorado currently due to politicians and stupidity."
ReplyDeleteIf there is a market, you can get one regardless of the law.
Gerry
"The thing about the Glock and M&P is that, not only are they perfectly serviceable pistols, but they are practically ubiquitous."
ReplyDeleteA related thought on those lines, if you are away from home (or not) and suffer a loss of your personal weapon, a loaner from a friendly source is likely to be familiar to use. Things happen. Natural disasters, theft, accidental loss, car wrecks, unforeseen situations requiring one to travel or relocate without preparation.
Well, Tam could come to Stuttgart and find all the Glock and M&P mags she'd want.
ReplyDeleteA few years ago, I bought a Dan Wesson M1911 partly BECAUSE it had those XS Express sights, and I wanted to try them. That pistol now wears more conventional sights, if that tells you anything.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why someone who can fix a pistol with a nail file would worry about a little thing like getting parts and extra's for her gun. If you needed a holster, i thought you just went out, picked a bull and scared one out of him. :)
ReplyDeleteKerry
I can work with either the G-19 or M&P 9 with seamless transition between the two. I also fully agree with your methodology in selecting the M&P, it truly was an either or choice. Ancillary accessories and parts when and where needed are indeed a plus. As to the P-30, nice to look at, great to shoot but I've other things I want more.
ReplyDeleteOn the XS, I bought my first real, grown-up pistol in the form of a P220 SAO that was wearing a Big Dot. Learned to use 'em and love 'em.
ReplyDeleteI don't have that pistol or a set of Big Dot sights anymore...
But personal experience suggests the slower and less accurate at longer distance thing is a myth, or at the very least operator error. Didn't have any more trouble at 200 yards than the next guy, though I did have to keep both eyes open to make sure my sight was covering the target and not way (way) over it.
"But personal experience suggests the slower and less accurate at longer distance thing is a myth, or at the very least operator error."
ReplyDeleteThere is a reason that iron-sighted firearms used for precision work do not have rounded blobby front sights and vague rear ones.
I have owned many more than one pistol with XS Big Dots. I have successfully made hits way out on the berm with them, yes. I don't own them anymore.
That they give up precision relative to a traditional "equal light, equal height" notch-and-post is not really something I'd think can even be considered subjective.
PS: "I bought my first real, grown-up pistol in the form of a P220 SAO"
ReplyDeleteNow I feel old. :p
Ah, I actually used your comment yesterday in class. "Perfectly serviceable firearm." If you copyrighted anything I would owe you serious cash!
ReplyDeleteYes, a Model 1902 Colt Semi is serviceable, good luck getting parts though! Just like a 2002 Jag.
I prefer a commodity item now for carry.
I bought a Kimber Custom some years ago with XS Big Dot tritium sights, and honestly, I kinda like them. That particular Kimber is a favorite backup gun when hog hunting.
ReplyDeleteNow when the tritium loses it's happy thought and goes dark, those sights will be replaced by Meprolight tritiums. But not rushing, at this point
All good points. Also, a commodity pistol hurts less when you have to use it and likely lose it for awhile.
ReplyDeleteIf you're involved in a self-defense shooting, even if you do everything 100% right, expect that the pistol will be tucked away in evidence for while as things are sorted out.
If there's any questions or the affair is less than clear cut, expect it to be gone a lot longer if not forever.
Oh, Tam, you noticed....
ReplyDeleteMy point was not that there were magazines available somewhere for the H&K P30, but that the 10 round magazines cost 50% more than the standard capacity magazines on that particular site.
More capacity for less money, or less capacity for more money.
Eh. At range, you just have to use the center of the front dot; the tritium vial.
ReplyDeleteQuite possibly the only sight that becomes more precise when it gets dark out. :p
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your extensive experience with your pistol that had XS sights on it. Duly noted.
(How does not having any elevation referent become more precise after dark?)
ReplyDeleteMost of the other semi-autos I've handled fit my hands like a speed square. The P30 fits my big old paws like Madame Stuart does. The first time I picked one up I fondly remembered what it had felt like to carry it in the womb, or so it seemed, and every time since when I pick it up it feels like the Green Lantern's signet ring, warm, and electric, and ready. And I suppose size relative to carry is also relative to the size of the carrier.
ReplyDeleteI already have enough full size mags to feed it until it gets too hot to handle, so I feel fairly well set in that regard. If I ever need to get more...active...than that, it's probably time to go wholesale with something else.
I do have a number of other handguns I train with periodically, and I'm also partial to a snuggly little lightweight S&W snubby for similar reasons.
But there's a difference to me between a man who owns dogs and the relationship between a man and his dog, as anyone who's spent any time in the wild relying on a preternaturally intuitive dog will understand.
As you suggest, Tam, in the final analysis it often comes down to intangibles. This one is mine.
HMS