I guess I never understood the fetish my fellow Americans have with uploading the .45/70. My Africa "stopping rifle" is a simply built Win M-70 that was converted from .375 H&H to .458 Lott, in a cheap Hogue overmold stock with Ashley Outdoors (now XS) ghost rings. I paid $1200 for the whole thing, parts and labor. It has nearly TWICE the energy of that load and still has 100 FPS left if I choose to load it up to maximum, and my 165lb wife shoots it for fun every time I bring it out to the range.
That kind of energy is no big deal in a rifle that's properly built to handle it. I'm sure it's obnoxious in a #1 or a lever-rifle, neither of which is well equipped to handle real energy, but WHY? What am I missing? Why hotrod an old classic to the point of abuse (both the case and the rifle, if we're talking about levers) just to have the most uncomfortable package possible while achieving HALF of what can be done with simple gear built for the task?
"'m sure it's obnoxious in a #1 or a lever-rifle, neither of which is well equipped to handle real energy,"
I may be mistaken, but it's my understanding (implied by many a loading manual) that a No.1 will handily swallow loads that would grenade most bolt guns.
And why 458 Lott? My guides in Zambia said a 416 Rigby would drop anything they might ever consider hunting, AND it's a more common cartridge? Just curious.
I like recoil. I LOVE recoil in a large rifle, like a CZ 550 Safari magnum, or a double- my dream gun is a 500 nitro Merkel double, not because I intend to hunt anything that needs it, but because it's fun to shoot.
Captcha: Impit, which is a word descriptive of the location of a light rifle with a hot load immediately after discharge.
One of the worst guns I ever worked with on an article was a Marlin lever gun in .45/70 and it was handloaded with some 300 grainers (from a friend?) that were just a little below .458 Win Mag spectaculars. By the seventh round my body (shoulders, arms, hands...even my eyes) was shaking badly because my brain was telling every nerve ending in my being to stop this sh!t!
Hell of a way to make a living and eversince I've never been a big advocate of recoil. Accuracy...YES! Recoil...just for the sensation...NO!
Tam, you are absolutely and 100% corect. There was a slight misstatement on my part. #1 action is among the strongest ever built. But the stock is uncomfortable and they usually don't weigh NEARLY enough to manage heavy recoil (my Lott tips the scales right under 10 lbs, which is none too much for a heavy rifle). Heavy caliber #1's are, in my limited experience, usually the most uncomfortable heavies to shoot. The #1 45/70's I've played with are much more abusive even with lever-safe loads than my Lott.
As to "why the Lott", when I built it my hunting partner and I were working on an opportunity to open up a new hunting territory in Mozambique, which would have entailed solo hunting and scouting, along with the possibility of culling and PAC shooting without a backup. (PAC = Problem Animal Control, i.e., "rogue" elephant, wounded buffalo and man-eater cats.) I wanted the biggest thing I could handle that was simple, rugged and not out of my financial league. The Lott is an easy case to load and reload, you can shoot .458 Win Mag in it if you run out of Lott ammo, and you can make more Lott ammo out of .458 Win Mag ammo if you can get it. .416's are easier to come by in many places than Lott's, but .458 Win Mag is easier to come by in almost all of sub-Saharan Africa. Cases and bullets were about half the cost of bigger calibers at the time (it was the biggest bullet or case you could get from Hornady). Recently that has changed in that some of the majors started loading and making components for the .470 and 505's.
It runs 150fps above the maximum tweaked-out Win Mag loads at very moderate pressures (no stuck cases or powder that cakes or bricks over time/heat/vibration). It meets the time tested "at least: 500 gr / .45 caliber / 2000 fps impact velocity" "stopping rifle" criteria that has been time honored among people that face dangerous animals for a living. I've yet to find a Professional Hunter in Africa that didn't either own a rifle or desperately want a rifle meeting the above criteria. I've met many that started with .416's (Taylor, Rigby, Remington) that had upgraded to .458 / .470 / .505.
It was cheap to build, it would be cheap to replace (NIB Rugers and CZs in Lott work fine). It recoils about like my duck gun shooting 2 3/4" magnums, and stops dangerous game like a 470 Nitro Express. Every guide I've shown it to wanted to buy it, except for the one that had his own .470 NE Merkel. It is accurate beyond all need in a rifle of that class (accurate enough that I no longer discuss it because I've been accused of lying). It's killed everything I ever shot at from 15 feet to 180 yards (long range for a stopping rifle, btw). One of the most pleasant afternoons I ever spent was on the edge of a stock tank in the Texas Panhandle, shooting turtles and frogs out to unlikely distances with my hunting partner, he with his .470 NE Searcy, I with my Lott. I think it is probably the best compromise for someone that wants a "stopping rifle" and isn't made of money. Just my two cents worth. YMMV.
I've shot 500 nitro, 577 nitro, and when I was in Africa shot a LOT of hot loaded 375h&h mag- the brass-projectile Kynoch stuff- and loved every minute of it.
I'm a big guy, and the hot loads beat me up pretty hard, I usually end up a little black and blue- but a large, heavy rifle hitting my shoulder with that kind of authority? I love it. And I shoot pretty good offhand, certainly moment-of-deer. Even with the hot loads.
Recoil isn't for everyone, and to those who don't like it? by all means stay away. It's not a macho thing, I'm not wired like that, I just like big rifles with big holes in the owie ends. Especially doubles.
Former, makes a lot of sense. It sounds like a fun rifle to shoot, and I'm not surprised at the accuracy. I shot a rebarreled 1917 Enfield in 416 Rigby, one of the nicest rifles I ever shot.
I've often wondered what it would be like to take one of the big bores and make saboted cartridges in something like 30 cal, to kind of make the large rifle more versatile, but I suppose the difference in cost of the cartridge would be minimal, and you probably wouldn't get more downrange. Still, it would be interesting to see if you could sabot a 458 or even a 416 down to 30 caliber and get ought-six data from the larger rifle, it might make the whole outfit more versatile. Got any pics of that boomer?
As for the #1, the guns out of the box from Ruger do seem to be brass-butted and nasty, needing much larger, heavier stocks. Brownells used to sell barreled actions- all the way out, I believe, to one of the big Linebaugh loads, 475, I think. I always thought the hot deal would be to build one and put a good heavy stock with a good rise and a decent recoil pad on one.
Pics from the boomer's first DG hunt are here: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=93711&highlight=zambezi+pics First pic is my buff with rifle in hand.
Formerflyer
Verification: stery. Man, NOBODY knows how to properly spell Steyr, do they?
The trapdoor Springfield carbine had to be loaded down to a 405 gr. bullet in front of 55 gr. of black for just the same reason. Seems the boys in blue had to shoot the things on a regular basis and needed their shoulders for other things. The Ruger #1 (I have several) is indeed strong. It is actually the old Scottish Farquarson falling block made in modern steels, and even some of the old case hardened Farquarson's were done up in obscene calibers. But bruises on the guy pulling the trigger would dampen my enthusiasm.
Way back when....I picked up a Marlin 1895 (TERRIFIC rifle), 100 rounds of ammo and a set of .45-70 dies. Easy gun to shoot with factory ammo, but 3031 and 4064 turn it into something reasonably impressive.
Friend shot it during the beginnings of load workup, liked it, etc. Month or so later he called asking to borrow my dies. Seems he had picked up a #1.
We discussed loads, I mentioned how much 3031 I was using under Speer 400 grain soft points, said it seemed pretty snappy and quite accurate in the 1895. He showed up at the range a while later and pointed out that the manuals allowed for several grains more in his rifle than mine.
He fired two rounds then asked if I wanted to shoot it, which I did. I handed it back after a couple and he said "go ahead and finish the box......"
In my 1895 I was getting about 1860 from the 400 grain bullets, which is a load that will Get Your Attention (phenomenal on deer, BTW - pretty much anywhere below the antlers and in front of the gut fills the freezer Right Now).
I have no clue what velocity he was getting because, despite my affinity for recoil, I wasn't dumb enough to try it off the bench. And the bullets from it were moving pretty quick, too.
Truthfully, those aren't my most painful loads in that rifle, for the record.
That honor is bestowed upon a batch of Beartooth hard-cast, gas-checked 405gr beauties I chronographed doing an honest 2150fps from the very same Ruger #1S.
Y'all can do the muzzle energy math on that one. "Impressive" is the adjective that comes to mind. I can swing about 10 of the hotter Beartooth loads from the offhand before the factory 1" recoil pad on that rifle gets painful to me.
My answer to the incredulous question regarding why I run .458 Win Mag equivalent loads in a .45-70 Ruger #1S?
Same reason a dog licks his undercarriage - because we can.
When I want to shoot sedate .45-70, I load 70gr of Goex Cartridge behind a 535gr Postell cast boolit, then launch it from a 32" Sharps at a leisurely 1200fps. Different tools for different applications, as it were...
I owned a little .45-70 Ruger #3 Carbine that weighed about 6 1/2 pounds. I shot some 440 gr. cast bullets out of ir at 2100 fps. The butt on that rifle is JUST like a 10-22. Seriously, it hurt. A lot. Horrible stock engineering for recoil management.
I shot a .600 Overkill on a 1917 action the other day. 10 1/2 pounds, 900 grain bullet at 2100 fps. It was like being in an auto collision and coming out unscathed. WAY too much- kinda fun though, but I did not need to do it again!
Guaranteed to clear the sinuses.
ReplyDeleteI am a recoil junkie, and I wish had one of those. But not enough to dissuade me frommmy quest for a 500 nitro express.
ReplyDeleteCaptcha: "obleba" the noise your man-boobs make when you shoot a hot 45-70 round.
"That's a compressed load of IMR-3031, by the way!..."
ReplyDeleteUm, keep your eye away from that scope, dude.
Jeezis, someone has a jones for recoil.
That'll leave a mark. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI have loaded 45/70 up to ....ah..... OUCH levels. Shot them in a NEF single shot. Weighed about 6 pounds.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, but dumb.
On the other hand, I have loaded .458 win mag down to 45/70 levels, and made a SWEET shooting mauser for big game.
I guess I never understood the fetish my fellow Americans have with uploading the .45/70. My Africa "stopping rifle" is a simply built Win M-70 that was converted from .375 H&H to .458 Lott, in a cheap Hogue overmold stock with Ashley Outdoors (now XS) ghost rings. I paid $1200 for the whole thing, parts and labor. It has nearly TWICE the energy of that load and still has 100 FPS left if I choose to load it up to maximum, and my 165lb wife shoots it for fun every time I bring it out to the range.
ReplyDeleteThat kind of energy is no big deal in a rifle that's properly built to handle it. I'm sure it's obnoxious in a #1 or a lever-rifle, neither of which is well equipped to handle real energy, but WHY? What am I missing? Why hotrod an old classic to the point of abuse (both the case and the rifle, if we're talking about levers) just to have the most uncomfortable package possible while achieving HALF of what can be done with simple gear built for the task?
::shaking head, walking away::
Formerflyer
"'m sure it's obnoxious in a #1 or a lever-rifle, neither of which is well equipped to handle real energy,"
ReplyDeleteI may be mistaken, but it's my understanding (implied by many a loading manual) that a No.1 will handily swallow loads that would grenade most bolt guns.
Former, because it's FUN.
ReplyDeleteAnd why 458 Lott? My guides in Zambia said a 416 Rigby would drop anything they might ever consider hunting, AND it's a more common cartridge? Just curious.
I like recoil. I LOVE recoil in a large rifle, like a CZ 550 Safari magnum, or a double- my dream gun is a 500 nitro Merkel double, not because I intend to hunt anything that needs it, but because it's fun to shoot.
Captcha: Impit, which is a word descriptive of the location of a light rifle with a hot load immediately after discharge.
And Tam, you're right, the falling block of the #1 is possibly one of the strongest actions made, I've seen them loaded way hot.
ReplyDeleteOne of the worst guns I ever worked with on an article was a Marlin lever gun in .45/70 and it was handloaded with some 300 grainers (from a friend?) that were just a little below .458 Win Mag spectaculars. By the seventh round my body (shoulders, arms, hands...even my eyes) was shaking badly because my brain was telling every nerve ending in my being to stop this sh!t!
ReplyDeleteHell of a way to make a living and eversince I've never been a big advocate of recoil. Accuracy...YES! Recoil...just for the sensation...NO!
All The Best,
Frank W. James
Tam, you are absolutely and 100% corect. There was a slight misstatement on my part. #1 action is among the strongest ever built. But the stock is uncomfortable and they usually don't weigh NEARLY enough to manage heavy recoil (my Lott tips the scales right under 10 lbs, which is none too much for a heavy rifle). Heavy caliber #1's are, in my limited experience, usually the most uncomfortable heavies to shoot. The #1 45/70's I've played with are much more abusive even with lever-safe loads than my Lott.
ReplyDeleteAs to "why the Lott", when I built it my hunting partner and I were working on an opportunity to open up a new hunting territory in Mozambique, which would have entailed solo hunting and scouting, along with the possibility of culling and PAC shooting without a backup. (PAC = Problem Animal Control, i.e., "rogue" elephant, wounded buffalo and man-eater cats.) I wanted the biggest thing I could handle that was simple, rugged and not out of my financial league. The Lott is an easy case to load and reload, you can shoot .458 Win Mag in it if you run out of Lott ammo, and you can make more Lott ammo out of .458 Win Mag ammo if you can get it. .416's are easier to come by in many places than Lott's, but .458 Win Mag is easier to come by in almost all of sub-Saharan Africa. Cases and bullets were about half the cost of bigger calibers at the time (it was the biggest bullet or case you could get from Hornady). Recently that has changed in that some of the majors started loading and making components for the .470 and 505's.
It runs 150fps above the maximum tweaked-out Win Mag loads at very moderate pressures (no stuck cases or powder that cakes or bricks over time/heat/vibration). It meets the time tested "at least: 500 gr / .45 caliber / 2000 fps impact velocity" "stopping rifle" criteria that has been time honored among people that face dangerous animals for a living. I've yet to find a Professional Hunter in Africa that didn't either own a rifle or desperately want a rifle meeting the above criteria. I've met many that started with .416's (Taylor, Rigby, Remington) that had upgraded to .458 / .470 / .505.
It was cheap to build, it would be cheap to replace (NIB Rugers and CZs in Lott work fine). It recoils about like my duck gun shooting 2 3/4" magnums, and stops dangerous game like a 470 Nitro Express. Every guide I've shown it to wanted to buy it, except for the one that had his own .470 NE Merkel. It is accurate beyond all need in a rifle of that class (accurate enough that I no longer discuss it because I've been accused of lying). It's killed everything I ever shot at from 15 feet to 180 yards (long range for a stopping rifle, btw). One of the most pleasant afternoons I ever spent was on the edge of a stock tank in the Texas Panhandle, shooting turtles and frogs out to unlikely distances with my hunting partner, he with his .470 NE Searcy, I with my Lott. I think it is probably the best compromise for someone that wants a "stopping rifle" and isn't made of money. Just my two cents worth. YMMV.
Formerflyer
I've shot 500 nitro, 577 nitro, and when I was in Africa shot a LOT of hot loaded 375h&h mag- the brass-projectile Kynoch stuff- and loved every minute of it.
ReplyDeleteI'm a big guy, and the hot loads beat me up pretty hard, I usually end up a little black and blue- but a large, heavy rifle hitting my shoulder with that kind of authority? I love it. And I shoot pretty good offhand, certainly moment-of-deer. Even with the hot loads.
Recoil isn't for everyone, and to those who don't like it? by all means stay away. It's not a macho thing, I'm not wired like that, I just like big rifles with big holes in the owie ends. Especially doubles.
Former, makes a lot of sense. It sounds like a fun rifle to shoot, and I'm not surprised at the accuracy. I shot a rebarreled 1917 Enfield in 416 Rigby, one of the nicest rifles I ever shot.
ReplyDeleteI've often wondered what it would be like to take one of the big bores and make saboted cartridges in something like 30 cal, to kind of make the large rifle more versatile, but I suppose the difference in cost of the cartridge would be minimal, and you probably wouldn't get more downrange. Still, it would be interesting to see if you could sabot a 458 or even a 416 down to 30 caliber and get ought-six data from the larger rifle, it might make the whole outfit more versatile. Got any pics of that boomer?
And to think that I think 8mm Mauser out of a T38 is punishment enough for my poor shoulder...
ReplyDeleteAs for the #1, the guns out of the box from Ruger do seem to be brass-butted and nasty, needing much larger, heavier stocks. Brownells used to sell barreled actions- all the way out, I believe, to one of the big Linebaugh loads, 475, I think. I always thought the hot deal would be to build one and put a good heavy stock with a good rise and a decent recoil pad on one.
ReplyDeleteOg:
ReplyDeletePics from the boomer's first DG hunt are here: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=93711&highlight=zambezi+pics First pic is my buff with rifle in hand.
Formerflyer
Verification: stery. Man, NOBODY knows how to properly spell Steyr, do they?
Sweet! Nice buff. I hoped to get one while in Zambia but no luck. I did get a nice kudu, though.
ReplyDeletehttp://neanderpundit.com/?p=2632
Maybe next time. Maybe by then I'll have a big double.
The trapdoor Springfield carbine had to be loaded down to a 405 gr. bullet in front of 55 gr. of black for just the same reason. Seems the boys in blue had to shoot the things on a regular basis and needed their shoulders for other things.
ReplyDeleteThe Ruger #1 (I have several) is indeed strong. It is actually the old Scottish Farquarson falling block made in modern steels, and even some of the old case hardened Farquarson's were done up in obscene calibers.
But bruises on the guy pulling the trigger would dampen my enthusiasm.
That looks like an interesting round.
ReplyDeleteFor a .45/70 Derringer...
Heh.
Way back when....I picked up a Marlin 1895 (TERRIFIC rifle), 100 rounds of ammo and a set of .45-70 dies. Easy gun to shoot with factory ammo, but 3031 and 4064 turn it into something reasonably impressive.
ReplyDeleteFriend shot it during the beginnings of load workup, liked it, etc. Month or so later he called asking to borrow my dies. Seems he had picked up a #1.
We discussed loads, I mentioned how much 3031 I was using under Speer 400 grain soft points, said it seemed pretty snappy and quite accurate in the 1895. He showed up at the range a while later and pointed out that the manuals allowed for several grains more in his rifle than mine.
He fired two rounds then asked if I wanted to shoot it, which I did. I handed it back after a couple and he said "go ahead and finish the box......"
In my 1895 I was getting about 1860 from the 400 grain bullets, which is a load that will Get Your Attention (phenomenal on deer, BTW - pretty much anywhere below the antlers and in front of the gut fills the freezer Right Now).
I have no clue what velocity he was getting because, despite my affinity for recoil, I wasn't dumb enough to try it off the bench. And the bullets from it were moving pretty quick, too.
Truthfully, those aren't my most painful loads in that rifle, for the record.
ReplyDeleteThat honor is bestowed upon a batch of Beartooth hard-cast, gas-checked 405gr beauties I chronographed doing an honest 2150fps from the very same Ruger #1S.
Y'all can do the muzzle energy math on that one. "Impressive" is the adjective that comes to mind. I can swing about 10 of the hotter Beartooth loads from the offhand before the factory 1" recoil pad on that rifle gets painful to me.
My answer to the incredulous question regarding why I run .458 Win Mag equivalent loads in a .45-70 Ruger #1S?
Same reason a dog licks his undercarriage - because we can.
When I want to shoot sedate .45-70, I load 70gr of Goex Cartridge behind a 535gr Postell cast boolit, then launch it from a 32" Sharps at a leisurely 1200fps. Different tools for different applications, as it were...
I owned a little .45-70 Ruger #3 Carbine that weighed about 6 1/2 pounds. I shot some 440 gr. cast bullets out of ir at 2100 fps. The butt on that rifle is JUST like a 10-22. Seriously, it hurt. A lot. Horrible stock engineering for recoil management.
ReplyDeleteI shot a .600 Overkill on a 1917 action the other day. 10 1/2 pounds, 900 grain bullet at 2100 fps. It was like being in an auto collision and coming out unscathed. WAY too much- kinda fun though, but I did not need to do it again!
[...] Flying with your ammo [...]
ReplyDeleteOh, they got a couple of Davide Pedersoli Quigly's at Cabela's here in MN at drastically reduced prices.
ReplyDeleteI'm looking at the 45-110 and 45-120 for pities sakes. $1200
Just gorgeous.
db