"Oh, Tamara, you're always being such a gun snob! Always talking about not buying cheap-ass guns and not carrying guns loose in your pocket without a holster and getting some good training! Why are you always pouring the Haterade?"Because some yahoo's cheap gun (I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd wager it was a derringer,) falls out of his frickin' pocket at the grocery store, drills a bag boy and then this happens. Nice work, Hopalong.
I don't believe in prior restraint or collective punishment, but generations of Americans have grown up hearing "You'll ruin it for everybody!" and think of that as a valid operating instruction at the voting booth. You know that guy that's going to give them a suitably tragic incident on which to hang their ad campaign? Don't be that guy.
(H/T to Unc.)
74 comments:
Gun snob: it's not just a hobby, it's a way of life.
Especially when good quality guns can be had at cheap-ass prices if bought used and will last for a long time...vs. a Hi-Point or Raven, ect that may not last very long, and end badly.
Also not only are your risking an ND putting a gun in your pocket sans holster, you're also risking getting the works gummed up with pocket crud in the event you may have to...I dunno...USE IT.
FYI I'm amused that the heavy hitters like you and Unc are liking this lovely woman's blog.
Seems she defines "Troll" as "anybody who disagrees with me", and is the kind of Feminist who hides behind her oafish husband.
Maybe her little head will pop!
What is it about sticking guns in pockets?
In grad school I read a case where a Southern court of appeals judge, in dicta, opined that men's trousers should be sold without pocket to prevent lower class yahoos from sticking pistols in them to prevent violence during their frequent times of drunkeness and misbehaviour.
Who knew the judge was on the right path.
Pocket carry is sloppy, but above all it is dangerous. We have seen this happening time and time again with people being injured by yahoos (including police officers) stuffing guns in their pockets (pat, pat).
I think it should be legal to beat gun store clerks with tire irons who I hear declare "just carry it in your pocket" (pat, pat). But I have a lot of interesting legal reforms.
Shootin' Buddy
Recently had a woman shot in Cincinnati by ex boyfriend, a CCW license holder was with her, but his gun jammed on first shot, his cheap Hi-Point was not up to the task, he ran away she died
What's wrong with pocket carry if you use a suitable pocket, gun, and holster?
If it wasn't for pocket carry I likely wouldn't carry at all in the summer months.
"What's wrong with pocket carry if you use a suitable pocket, gun, and holster?"
I don't think anything is, given those caveats.
For some people, however, those seem to be some mighty big caveats.
Huh, well I did like SFL's commentary style. More grist in the linguistic mill. I guess when I got there 'Bob' had deleted his posts or had them deleted, so I couldn't quite follow all the arguments.
I carry not because I live in some crime filled part of ATL (because, I don't), but because the crazies aren't restricted to crime ridden urban areas. The last was about 3 miles (as the crow flies) from the parents.
I bought Dad a S&W CS9 for Father's Day after that, because his Webleys aren't quite the practical carry pieces.
Andy said "I carry not because I live in some crime filled part of ATL (because, I don't), but because the crazies aren't restricted to crime ridden urban areas. The last was about 3 miles (as the crow flies) from the parents."
Hear hear. (no there isn't a verb there I just -wanted- that punctuation :) I have a friend who grew up in Bellevue Wa This was a low crime suburb of Seattle, recently turning more lefty and slightly higher on the crime. But still friends neighbors think it odd he would "be prepared"(tm).
In the 80's friends old (even then) VW rabbit had nice wheels and low profiles tires stripped off it while in the driveway. Cops say "yeah, that's a gang initiation, there were three in your square mile last month. Probly same guys". In the 90's Mom's checks start disappearing from the mailbox. Cops say "yeah, gangs organize to drive through emptying every box in a particular neighborhood into trash bags without even getting out of the car". So, the naivete about "low crime area" is no longer charming to friend. We pay for their roads, their buses and now light rail. All bad guy has to do is boost a car in their hood to get into yours. Be prepared is more then teh scout motto it underlies a rational approach to living. BoydK425
This is why putting a cheap gun in your pocket is a bad idea.
IIRC, some goober dropped one in the food court at West Town mall in K-town a few years back, too, but didn't ventilate anybody, thank gawd.
I went to the link and posted the following comment
Hello from a non-angry gun person,
Haven’t read comments from “Bob” so I’m not sure what he said or did to get things going, but it sounds like he stuck his appendage into it. I just want to make a couple observations:
I carry wherever and whenever I LEGALLY can, because I don’t know if or when it might be useful to be armed. If I knew when or where I would need it, I wouldn’t be there or then; I would send the police in my place. I understand the odds of needing to be armed are VERY LOW, but the consequences of not being armed when I need to be could be VERY HIGH. I am old, fat, and slow; in a physical confrontation I am at a disadvantage. I do my best to avoid the confrontation, but I could be surprised by someone younger, stronger, smarter, etc. So I might need a tool to offset my natural disadvantages.
Having come to that conclusion, I realize that being competent with any tool, especially a firearm, requires professional and ongoing training. ANYONE that carries a firearm needs training, whether that be civilian, LEO, or military. It’s unfortunate that not all training is equally good, and not everybody will be equally competent after training. For all I know, grocery store guy WAS trained. If so, it didn’t take and he IS an IDIOT. Not for carrying in a grocery store (he could be attacked in the parking lot), but for not carrying safely, and responsibly, and securely.
So, dear Miss Southern Female Lawyer, thanks for the story, thanks for the perspective, and thanks for not arguing that we should be stripped of our right to be armed. With rights come responsibilities, and evidently this man failed to be responsible.
Pocket carry seems to be just as dangerous as coverall carry.
I'm trying to get the two deleted comments from someone who cached them (good idea for me to remember) but I can guarantee all I was commenting on was the part about training.
While I think training is a good idea, her requirements seemed a little unreasonable to me -LEO/Military & had been in a real life emergency situation.
I think that the existing laws concerning negligence covers situations involving an accident that we don't need additional requirements or hysteria.
My problem is with people who think they need to take their guns out in public in order to play hero
Does anyone here feel like they are playing "hero" because they take their guns out in public?
"Does anyone here feel like they are playing "hero" because they take their guns out in public?"
I carry a gun in case I am dumb enough to not avoid a situation from which I can't run away.
The blogger to which I linked need have no fear of me ever using it to protect her, or much of anybody else other than me for that matter.
Nope. I'd be perfectly happy if I could simply carry a cop everywhere.
Of course, if I could do that, I don't think anyone would mess with me, anyway.
"[H]er requirements seemed a little unreasonable to me -LEO/Military & had been in a real life emergency situation."
I do not think she realizes that those of us without badges have far more training of those with badges. The gun control movement has largely ignored the training culture and remains wilfully igonrant of non-LEO gun training.
If you said "Gunsite" to her, she would think it is a gun part. "Thunder Ranch" to her is likely some place of ill repute in Nevada.
Besides, who wants to tell the poor dear that many in the militree do not handle firearms and among those who do there are many who I would not want behind us with guns.
Shootin' Buddy
What the hell was in that photo, and why won't my eyes stop bleeding?
You have to admit, 'Thunder Ranch' would make a good name for a Nevada resort of ill repute.
This is also why I'm a holster snob in addition to being a gun snob.
"I agree with your points about responsible gun ownership. I once owned a rifle and did target shooting with friends. When they moved from the area and I stopped shooting I put the gun IN SAFE KEEPING with the NYPD and never retrieved it, so it was destroyed. I knew I’d not be able to shoot an intruder and decided I was safer without a gun in the house that could be used on me."
Not only is this comment sad because the firearm was destroyed, but also because New York prevented him from selling it to someone else that could have enjoyed target shooting. Not to mention the mentality.
"The gun control movement has largely ignored the training culture and remains wilfully igonrant of non-LEO gun training."
To be fair, so does a vast majority of the gun-owning public.
Her most recent comment is surprisingly polite and reasonable.
Either somebody decided the big-girl pants fit better...or maybe last night was a mixer of blogging and white zinfandel?
Otherwise I'm currently scratching my head.
The object of the article was violating the law by carrying a weapon without a permit, in other words a CRIMINAL. That has the same relation to me and my legally carried weapon as a drive-by shooting performed a member of the Latin Kings.
It was illegal for the guy to carry a weapon in the store. I do not see how making it more illegal will fix the problem.
The correct solution is for the injured bag boy to sue the idiot into the poorhouse.
Tam: I'm sure that Southern Female Lawyer will be more than happy (willing and able?) to help the bag boy sue the idiot into the poor house.
She misses the point entirely that people like myself carry a gun to protect ME AND MINE and if trouble should occur once we are clear of it, everyone else is ON THEIR OWN!
I have absolutely NO INTENTION of being a 'Hero' to strangers. Not unless someone wants to authorize me and pay me for this burdensome task.
The world doesn't owe us a living and neither do those of us who carry 'personal protection' owe them a level of safety they aren't willing to assume for themselves.
All The Best,
Frank W. James
'Cause we don't wanna be another Braziristan!!
"To be fair, so does a vast majority of the gun-owning public."
To be even more fair, a large percentage of LEO's are willfully ignorant of training. They understand qualification, but they haven't trained since the academy, if then.
"To be even more fair, a large percentage of LEO's are willfully ignorant of training. They understand qualification, but they haven't trained since the academy, if then."
Oh, don't get me started...
(Still) a non gun-owner here, but frequent reader and occasional smart-a$$ commenter. My question is why did these guns go off when dropped on the floor. Aren't most modern firearms fairly resistant to that, even carried cocked and locked?
The good ones are.
"My question is why did these guns go off when dropped on the floor."
Because they were derringers or cheap pot-metal autos, or possibly antiques that were not drop-safe. Most any modern pistol or revolver from a quality manufacturer is safe to carry with a round in the chamber.
Incidentally, the blogger to whom I linked wanted people to "leave them in the car" in the name of safety.
NO, NO, NO, NO!
All that unnecessary fiddle-farting around with a loaded gun, such as taking it out of the holster and putting it in the glovebox and vice versa, is when unintentional loud noises occur. Get dressed, put gun in holster, and as best as possible LEAVE IT THERE UNTIL YOU GET UNDRESSED AT NIGHT. STOP TOUCHING IT. The gun is perfectly safe sitting in a good holster; it's when folks start fat-fingering it to load or unload or put it in the glove box or whatever that negligent discharges occur.
Most pertinent: STOP TOUCHING IT.
Should be repeated and become
The 5th Rule: STOP TOUCHING IT.
"All that unnecessary fiddle-farting around with a loaded gun, such as taking it out of the holster and putting it in the glovebox and vice versa, is when unintentional loud noises occur."
Yep. Also I find the idea of taking my gun off inside a big glass box on the side of the road and locking it inside the big glass box on the side of the road for "Safety" rather than simply keeping right next to me.
Smash-and-grabs are too-damn easy, and happen in the boldest of places without any witnesses. I just don't trust that I can stash my gun safely and hide it well enough to avoid being targeted.
Plus *for now* Massachusetts has "Safe Storage" laws, meaning for me to actually leave my gun in my truck I'd need to upholster it, unload it, and then lock it with an approved trigger or cable lock, or lock it in a hard-sided container.
This is not only begging for an ND, but it's also calling every smash-and-grab artist from the next 3 counties!
The blogger to which I linked need have no fear of me ever using it to protect her, or much of anybody else other than me for that matter.
Agreed Tam. I have no intention of ever running around trying to play hero if bad shit happens. That's a good way to get yourself killed. The gun is a tool to help get myself and my loved ones out of harms way.
Interestingly, anti-gunners constantly claim we want to run around trying to be some kind of rambo even though that's not the case.
Hmmm. Idiot shoots bystander by dropping an illegally and improperly carried firearm.
Blogger holds forth that everyone carrying concealed, legally, properly or otherwise should immediately cease and leave their firearms where they're more easily stolen. (Unless they're an Only One...)
This woman is a lawyer?
How the hell did she reason her way to graduate from High School?
"STOP TOUCHING IT"
Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that...
"This woman is a lawyer?
How the hell did she reason her way to graduate from High School?"
I am going to have to state that her original position, from which she has since backpedaled, was not one that had been arrived at by reason. Indeed, the subject was probably not one to which she had given much thought one way or the other.
Given the media ocean in which most people swim, and their complete unfamiliarity (and general unconcern) with firearms and firearms laws, can you blame someone for having internalized the "Only Ones" myth?
Tam,
recently read of an accidental discharge (trying to recall where). Very experienced gunner stuffed a Mod1903 Colt into his sweats (waistband, I think), and dropped it when he bent over to tie his shoe laces. Took a round, and made it as far as his garage before dieing.
I'm with Tam - People who have little or no familiarity with firearms often have a great deal of ignorance on the subject. It's not intentional, rather they just don't know any better because what they know is what they've learned from the media. Of course we all know how accurate the media is when it comes to guns.
Still, I really don't get her whole thing about how we should all leave our guns at home because of the actions of some CRIMINAL who acted like a dumbass.
Comments restored - she only seems to have deleted two of them and a new post up
Maybe the Mensa hopeful tried to catch the handgun on the way down and caught the trigger - it's just another possibility to consider along with "crappy gun" or "older gun, not drop safe."
Most of the people I know with CHLs or equivalent permits for their areas tend to use some sort of holster even for pocket carry. Common sense is more prevalent among law-abiding firearms owners than some "outsiders" think, it seems.
Carry a gun to be a hero? That is one of the stupidest comments yet! I carry because I refuse to be a victim and to protect my family because cops are to damn heavy to carry all the time!! And 911 does not produce instant cops!! Pocket carry? With the proper holster it works and works well. Uf you wear jeans that fit like speedos, no it does snot work. But nice cargo pants? Work well. Now IWB is beats pocket carry.
Good grief carry a gun to be a hero that sounds like a classic Anti Gun Libtard comment!!
To be fair, sorta, the OP's point was that she thought the gun should _live_ in your car. As in, she disapproves of any public carry, but thinks it's reasonable to keep a gun in your car for self defense. So it isn't a matter of repeatedly unholstering your gun; in her world, the responsibly transported gun is never attached to your body.
People carrying in their pockets (without a holster) annoys the hell out of me! I work with a guy who damn near lost his foot because he dropped a gun out of his pocket....when pulling the keys he had in the same pocket out! Moron! Idiot!
And of course, even though a damn sight more people managed to carry safely that same day, it makes us all look like idiots because BLOOD GETS NOTICED!
On cheap crappy derringers in pockets:
A guy I know used to carry one of those; a Lorcin or Jennings or similar. Yup, loose in the pocket. It _did_ have a safety catch, which failed. He asked me if I could fix it. I replaced the detent spring with a piece of one, of much higher quality, from the nearest ballpoint pen.
This guy is a rock and roll musician, for what that's worth.Sometime after that he was Lautenberged anyway, for foolishly copping a plea to a bullshit DV charge.
Depends on the pocket. However, unless the pocket mouth is more than 45 degrees vertical or an internal one with a deep pocket, it pretty much qualifies as a bad pocket. And obviously you shouldn't store anything else in the pocket.
"A guy I know used to carry one of those; a Lorcin or Jennings or similar. Yup, loose in the pocket. It _did_ have a safety catch, which failed. He asked me if I could fix it. I replaced the detent spring with a piece of one, of much higher quality, from the nearest ballpoint pen."
I knew a guy, a customer at a store where I used to work, who thought it would be a genius idea to carry a .38 Davis derringer in his pocket. He dropped it and the bullet ran up his thigh, nicked his femoral, and lodged in his femur. He's lucky to still be alive, let alone bipedal.
Some folks just have to learn their lessons the hard way, I guess.
... can you blame someone for having internalized the "Only Ones" myth?
Point taken.
Yet, I still harbor my own irrational hope that someone who is schooled in and earns a living by presenting facts and making persuasive arguments would display at least some of the same on their blog. Disconnects like that always jar me a bit.
I am negative about Derringers, which are useless, dangerous and generally poorly constructed. Better get something a little bigger and a lot more efficient.
-- Jeff Cooper (1975)
Sums it well, I think.
"Yet, I still harbor my own irrational hope that someone who is schooled in and earns a living by presenting facts and making persuasive arguments would display at least some of the same on their blog."
True, but sometimes very smart people fall victim to today's culture of expertise, in which one learns more and more about less and less. (I think I mentioned on the blog before that a friend referred to the syndrome as "Doctoritis"; this was the same friend who, on the eve of her PhD, joked "Hooray! Tomorrow I'll be twice as smart as I am today!" ;) )
Re: Playing hero.
Considering that the first part of my self-defense plan is "Run like a scared rabbit if possible", I fail to see how that's part of my overall plan.
Look, if I'm somewhere by my lonesomes and things go pear shaped, if I have the opportunity I'm going to make Carl Lewis look slow.
I don't *want* to be a hero. I just want to be left the hell alone. I guarantee you, you leave me alone, you will never know about what I may be carrying...
"The object of the article was violating the law by carrying a weapon without a permit, in other words a CRIMINAL..."
Personally, I couldn't care less about some illegal legislative rule that requires people purchase fake plastic permission slips, and has no effect on crime or safety. It is overshadowed by the criminal negligence of the moron who shot a bag boy.
Well before I had the plastic card, I understood that it was not a good idea to carry an unsecured, loaded weapon like pocket change. I will sleep much better knowing that the moron in question will be prosecuted and locked up somewhere, hopefully never again to wander among the public unless under the custodianship of an adult with a fully-developed prefrontal cortex.
I read all the comments on the linked post and I can honestly say that after things took a turn for the surreal (husband threatening severe bodily harm to one BobS.) you could almost hear the backpedalling begin. I don't know if she went back and re-read the comments, but before hubby stepped in it she came off like a total wanker.
Personnally, I don't pocket carry anything I own. I sold a J-frame Smith because it didn't sit right when I carried it no matter which holster I used and have now gone almost exclusively with JMB and his assorted offspring in Galco holsters.
"A doofus with no CHL illegally carrying a derringer loose in his pocket sans holster is a “gun enthusiast” in the same way that a doofus driving drunk on a suspended license in a ‘78 Chevette is a “car enthusiast”."
- elmo iscariot
Elmo wins the internets!
True, but sometimes very smart people fall victim to today's culture of expertise, in which one learns more and more about less and less.
Indeed. Unfortunately, Heinlein's quote that "specialization is for insects" now addresses a solid state world where you can't fix a toaster. (My stock 1970 CJ needs a lot of attention, but I can work on it.)
I think that's one reason I like guns. At their core, they're based on 19th Century technology that's at least knowable.
Southern Female Lawyer appears to be the wife of Rob Russell, a Dem legislative candidate from the Tri-Cities area of TN (thanx to Linoge for the detective work).
Just in case antone wants to sit down with Lawyer and hubby over a cup of Starbucks and discuss current affairs....
That should have been "anyone". Spellcheck Medic!
"I read all the comments on the linked post and I can honestly say that after things took a turn for the surreal (husband threatening severe bodily harm to one BobS.) you could almost hear the backpedalling begin. I don't know if she went back and re-read the comments, but before hubby stepped in it she came off like a total wanker."
Maybe she realized that Hubby had just stepped on his dick and ruined his political career?
http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2010/01/pulling_back_the_curtain.html
That's some grade-a-stupid!
Wow Tam! You can sure pick 'em.
My pocket holster for the PF-9 sucks though. Can you recommend? Can anyone else? I looked through Galco and didn't see anything great.
WV:dipse She (SFL) sure is!
"Elmo wins the internets!"
I appreciate it, jimbob, but that was actually ben Ezra, not me. Credit where it's due. ;)
I'm afraid I have to take issue with the argument that lawyers are somehow superior ... intelligence-wise ... because they've taken all those courses, etc. I'm not sure what it's like in the US ... but up here in the Great White North, the undergraduate training isn't any different, more difficult, etc. than any other honours course.
The Bar exam year is where the rubber hits the road ... and the only thing tested is their ability to take tests successfully. Cramming, cramming, retaking previous years' tests, etc.
Nothing special about any of that. Yes, lawyers are perhaps disciplined and work hard ... but they're not brighter.
Regards.
Just want uall to know Im sittin here right now with a gun in my right hip pocket. Its a Ruger Bearcat I stick in there when I walk the dog. Fits real good. Comes out fast. Just try me. And it has a little doo-dad in there keeps if from going off if dropped. Who was it used to say you can "Hammer the hammer"? Sometimes I put my Chief's Special in there the same way, and been doing it all my life no prob. (Im 69) So now you got me to fret about. Too bad...
"So now you got me to fret about. Too bad..."
Actually, I don't "fret about" you at all. Too bad.
You can get away with careless habits with most things (burn, shock,- minor)but if you misuse say, a bandsaw, you will shake hands differently forevermore. Just a tool, when used and handled properly, with no issues. A holster is imperative for 99% of gun- handling scenarios, and not just for safety (presentation, etc.) although safety is paramount. If the possibility of harming others when not using a holster was not part of the equation, it might be fine. Then Mr. Darwin would thin the herd of these folks.
My apologies to benEzra for the mis-attribution. Lemme try that one more time:
"A doofus with no CHL illegally carrying a derringer loose in his pocket sans holster is a “gun enthusiast” in the same way that a doofus driving drunk on a suspended license in a ‘78 Chevette is a “car enthusiast”."
-ben Ezra
ben Ezra wins the internets!
Don't know why anon ended his comment above the way he did, Tam, but up until then I found myself understanding and even somewhat agreeing with what he was saying.
His Bearcat and his snubbie fit his pocket comfortably; if he has sense enough to carry a relatively drop-safe model,
keep it clean and maintain awareness of where it is, he is unlikely to drop it.
For many years I have regularly carried a North American mini-revolver. I can "palm" the gun inside my pocket, and many times it has comforted me when I was otherwise unarmed and circumstances caused my short neck hairs to stand up. Never had to do it, thank God, but on a few occasions it was ready to come out and be cocked and under a chin in one quick motion if necessary; not many carry rigs allow that stage of ready without being obvious. I've also carried a lightweight Smith snubbie naked in my pocket on several impromptu occasions, and lately I've done the same with my new LCP, although they both usually ride in a pancake.
Naked pocket carry has its place, as my own experience and that of the prickish anon above show. Not the preferred method for primary carry, but with certain guns, certain conditions, and with a bit of common sense, it can be a viable alternative to going unarmed.
AT
I wouldn't carry any derringer, not even the highest priced, highest quality one I could find. They have been obsolete since the 19th century when the first pocket sized revolvers were invented.
As for the cheap gun part, if dire finances compel someone to that, you have to know to carry a cheap striker fired semi-auto with an empty chamber.
Ravens and some of those guns work surprisingly well, but it is still basically a $20 assortment of zinc alloy and assorted parts.
Pocket carry is viable. But there are rules:
1) Nothing else goes into that pocket. Nothing. Not your keys. Not the asthma inhaler you will die without. NOTHING.
2) Pocket carry only works if the pocket is of adequate size and intact. No too-shallow pockets and no pockets with holes. (And no sweat-pants pocket carry. If you are out in public, wear real pants.)
3) Belt or suspenders is required.
4) Holster is required. There are pouch-style ones for jeans pockets and semi-rigid ones for khakis & slacks. Get one of each for any gun you plan to pocket carry.
Failure to follow these rules creates a serious risk. The life you save might be your own.
- Hyman Roth
"3) Belt or suspenders is required."
So long as your pants are a good fit, and the pocket and holster match up well, and you're not carrying a very heavy gun. you shouldn't have a problem with droopy drawers, or any sort of retention issues.
During the warm months my primary carry is a S&W642 in an Uncle Mike's riding in the front pocket of my jeans. I don't like belts so I just get jeans that fit me, and I have yet to have a problem, don't suspect I will.
Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work
~
Matthew B. Crawford
...for a inquiry into the genesis of how the modern educational system and business models can produce a mind trained to the finding of facts and drawing rational conclusions, which produced the blog-mire premise stated by the Southern Lawyer.
The book is much more than a paean to hand tools and grimy knuckles. It's best value is the examination of how decisions are made and persist.
John, the Read
So, let me get this straight;
No open carry, and no pocket carry. and no one should carry unless they've received training from a qualified trainor and proven that they are qualified to carry in the approved manner of carry. otherwise, you're just a maroon jumping on the couch.
Got it.
Jill.
"No open carry, and no pocket carry. and no one should carry unless they've received training from a qualified trainor and proven that they are qualified to carry in the approved manner of carry."
I haven't said any of that anywhere.
If you don't STOP TOUCHING IT your trigger finger's going to get too hairy to be of any use!
http://3bxsofbs.infamousanime.net/?p=1367
Looks like Rob Russell and his wife have Memory Hole'd all posts talking about "Gun Trolls" or punching of faces. Just wiped them off the map.
He stands by his words....but he'll delete them all and pretend he never said them.
SUPER Classy!
Actually it seems that the entire post is now gone.
Geez, the poor anti's can't say anything anymore without getting 40 Days and 40 Nights' worth of Reasoned Discourse from gun nuts.
But nothing can stop the Delete button!
tweaker
Edit: apparently, nothing can stop Google Cache, either!
tweaker
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