So, I assume asshole #2 was showing a piece. I wonder how much trouble the fat guy would have gotten into if he shoot that fucker in the back once he turned and walked away. Probably a lot, which is a damn shame. I know, I know, we all watched the old westerns and have an ingrained dislike of "back shootin", but in my book, with the ease at which that guy throws his weight around because he's got a "gat"; it is only a matter of time before he kills someone, maybe someones mom. So, that makes shooting him under whatever circumstances a heroic, life saving, act.
"Oh what if he goes strait and never threatens anyone ever again?"... Nope, asshole already proved that he can't live in polite society. "No fair!"... And letting him be free to roam the streets until he kills someone merely for getting "in his way" is far to who?
There doesn't appear to be much you can do in that situation. Other than be aware of your surroundings. Obviously , after watching a few times, dirtbag 2 had his hand on a gun or knife. At that point is the laptop?( Im guessing) worth it? Even if that victim was carrying he was already at a disadvantage, and if he did shoot the dirtbag he probably would have been prosecuted such dirtbag 2 was a choir boy and aspiring rapper that was just turning his life around.
One other thing of note.. I noticed the video says publicsafetyillinois..I thought they have strict gun laws there?
1) Video seems good enough to make an ID, assuming they're local boys
2) I don't carry loose stuff, but my wife and daughter generally do a better job of keeping control of purses, etc.
3) Even if armed, I doubt I would be able to process the events fast enough to react properly. Ideally, fat guy would have drawn and shot #2; there is an incredibly small number of people who could do that, though.
For starters, this is a reminder not to assume witnesses make you any safer. I can't blame them for staying out of it (though I could for not noticing anything had happened.)
I'm wishing for a blooper reel where the first guy crosses the street and is immediately crossed by a delivery truck.
I don't whip out my laptop in public very often. When I do, it's not street-side, or near any doors. That pretty much disqualifies me - ounce of prevention, and all of that - unless I'm walking down the street with my laptop bag on my back. At that point, things have likely gone rodeo before Sumdood #2 gets there with his piece.
At this point, I don't like the way my story's going...
If anyone's got the right answer, I'm all ears. I'm stumped.
Flipping through the Food-Court-Team-Six manual, it looks like the proper procedure would have been a quick deployment of your asp, followed by a strike to the strong hand, grabbing the heater as it was dropped, and then performing the patented 'Orange Julius' take-down maneuver.
Level 5 operators can do it without dropping their slice of pie from Sbarro's.
I doubt if #2 has anymore than just a handful of crotch but it wouldn't make much difference, young, strong and many trump old and alone. I don't see much that could be done besides reporting it.
Honestly? Even if I was carrying in that situation I'd probably step back, call the police and move on. A laptop or netbook is what? $300, $500? You'll spend 10 times that on legal fees minimum, and that's if it's a textbook "clean shoot." My carry gun is for defending my life.
Tough call for sure. It all happened so fast, not sure there was much that guy could have done. However, the vindictive, grudge carrying side of myself sees it this way... He got a pretty good look at punk #2, punk #2 more than likely frequents that area of the city..accidents happen all the time...just saying. Revenge is dish best served cold. KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!
I can close on #2 before he can draw. His weapon will do him no good when his egg cracks on the pavemnent behind him. He is certain he has the situation in his control. He would be wrong.
That murse was gone for good before the second guy ever came up to the table.
The victim wasn't going to run down the initial thief. He couldn't have done it even if he was just as fit as the thief; his reaction was just too late to get up and do anything.
The second guy, whom I think of as the robber, committed robbery even if he didn't flash a gat, because he quite clearly intimidated the victim, whether with a gat or with the threat of physical force. Thus, strong-arm robbery, at the very least.
The victim might just as well have said, "I was just trying to fix in my mind the exact color of my kit, so that I could order it's replacement right now. Chase? Oh hell no."
Another lesson in this tale: Notice how many of the surrounding customers jumped to his aid and attempted to subdue the Goblins? Big Fat Zero. Moral of the Story? If you're Flying Solo, don't expect help from the Natives.
I'm with .45ACP+P. The perp is so close that the victim could grab his gun hand and take him to the pavement. He is a legitimate threat at that point, and I see that as self-defense plus being a good citizen.
Having said that, I don't fault the guy for backing down.
Mistake #1: Living in Chicago. Mistake #2: Being out in public more than is absolutely necessary in Chicago. Mistake #3: Displaying something worth stealing in Chicago.
What is the common element in all these mistakes, and how can it be corrected?
Don't know if I can speak to the crime, nor to the proper response.
A note about setup: I assume BG#1 and BG#2 had scoped him from inside the shop, through the windows. BG#1 opens the door, makes a practiced snatch-and-scoot, while BG#2 follows to intimidate the vic.
Did BG#2 need to do that? Was he just backup, in case the vic gave chase?
It's hard to defend against a 2-man team like that, unless you have some idea of their intentions before they move.
It would probably have been hard to defend against BG#1 working solo, as long as he could disappear around a corner or into a crowd.
If I though I could, and if I thought quick enough?
Left hand grabs his wrist while right hand draws a knife and sticks it in his gut. Since grabbing something with my left hand and holding it and drawing my knife with my right and cutting is something I do every day I know I can do it quickly without even thinking about. Possibly could do the same with a pistol, but I'm pretty sure I could get a knife out faster.
The question is, would I? I don't know that I would anymore than anyone else knows that I wouldn't. The problem with this is that we can talk about 'what ifs' all day long, but until you're actually in the thick of it you don't know what's going to go down.
I can tell you one advantage everyone of us who has watched the video has over the guy in it, though. We've thought about what we would do in a similar situation, and gamed it out in our heads a little bit. And we've gotten a reminder to pay attention to what's going on around us.
You can see BG#2 didnt have a holster, his piece was just stuck in his saggy waist band. If you were to make a grab for it, Ala Wyatt Earp in Tombstone you could probably force a fumble.
I can close on #2 before he can draw. His weapon will do him no good when his egg cracks on the pavemnent behind him. He is certain he has the situation in his control. He would be wrong.
Yeah...
I'm gonna say attacking unarmed against a violent criminal with a handgun rather than letting said criminal walk away is a, ah, tactically unsound decision.
I'd be humiliated and furious too, but proving my strength to the witnesses ain't worth risking a bullet wound.
It's all based on surprise and speed. The thieves have their plan and have done this before. You on the other hand are having a latte and checking your email.
Smart move on the victim's part. Very educational.
Only thing you can do is decide if you are going to file a police report or not. This battle was lost before the first shot was fired(metaphorically). It happened in seconds, the bad guys had a plan, executed it well. They had speed, surprise, intiative, security and surveillance. I mean they followed Troop Leading Procedures, principles of the raid and METT-TC without knowing it. They executed that raid in a manner that if they were in the military their NCO would have been proud. The victim was an easy mark. Fat, slow, flashing items of value. Best advice is never go back ther again. Brutal fact of life, sometimes you lose.
Mr. Fatso could have totally charged BG#2 from behind as soon as he turned his back and started strutting down the street.
But since I'm not Mr. Fatso and have no idea what his previous experience is with violent crime, I can't fault him for sitting down while the adrenaline dump starts pumping through his system. And he probably got a better view of what BG#2 grabbed than we did.
Personally, my Fire Support Team would have re-enacted one those funny movie scenes where a badguy tries something and everyone within a 50-foot radius stands and draws a weapon.
Realistically, what would I do? Very much the same as the guy in the vid did. I would keep my humiliation as motivation to be a bit more...conscious of my environment in future. Carrying or not, the event was over before it seemed to start. Now then, if the second guy had decided to take his intimidation further, well who knows. Bottom line: I am worth more than a stupid purse/laptop or whatever. If the guys aim was to avoid being injured or killed, he achieved that 100%. Oh yes, and I believe in Karma too. Those F***ers will get theirs soon, of that I am sure. Cheers- Rusty
I'd really, really like to say that I could have used my left hand to jam dood #2's gun hand into his pants, brought my gun out with my right and just played it by ear from there.
But in reality, I would have been so derp?! over dood #1 jogging away with my laptop that dood #2 might not have even registered until a few moments later. "Woah, he had a gun!"
Anyway, I think the real lesson is that avoiding or mitigating this particular situation had to happen way before the video starts. Is an urban outdoor cafe, at a table within arms reach of both the exit and the street, the best place to be engrossed in internet dramaz?
As the economy continues to tank and SSI and food stamps buys less and less, we're going to see more of this. Plan accordingly.
I live in a free state and I would have taken my chances with shooting him in the back. It's the only way they learn not to do that kind of shit.
Other alternative- Pull and tell him to put his hands up and get on the ground. Wait for the police, who could take him in* find his accomplice. If he decides to go happy funtime on you, shoot him.
The point is, the reason sociopathic urbanites do such things is because nobody takes the chance of just ending their shit on the spot.
* this is going down in my state, not IL. If you live in IL, you should have moved a log time ago. Sucks to be you.
The property was irretrievable from the point where it was snatched up. No force is involved and property value is not what you gave at the POS. Dependent upon the state the theft could be no more than a misdemeanor offense. Other than the outside chance of seeing where he went or if he got into a vehicle the property owner had little likelihood of any satisfaction. The second subject could either change the theft to a robbery or be separated into a separate aggravated assault, mostly dependent on the whim of judiciary. Given the proximity involved with the second subject the victim was optioned out and got out of it intact. It suck’s to be a victim.
Fatso made the right choice. For the situation he was in. Even leaving aside Sumdood #2, Fatso was not going to be able to chase down Sumdood #1 and recover his property. And not getting into a violent altercation with the guy who was deeply inside his OODA loop was the right decision.
The take away message for me is, "How do I plan ahead to keep something like this from happening to me?"
As I already refuse to sit in a public place with my back to anything but a wall, and I refuse to sit in open cafes or near doors, and I wander around in condition orange, I am not sure what other steps I can take to reduce my risk of this kind of robbery.
That being said, between this story and the one you posted yesterday, I think that it is time for me to start doing Krav Maga again. And probably find another pistol training class.
When I'm sitting out in public eating, it's on the floor away from traffic, with the strap looped over my leg - not sitting up where any jerk can just grab it and run.
(In a place like that I'd consider slipping the strap under the chair, in fact.)
That's not even active situational awareness - just remembering that there's always some jerk around, and that jerks like easy prey.
Bubblehead said: Notice how many of the surrounding customers jumped to his aid and attempted to subdue the Goblins? Big Fat Zero. Moral of the Story? If you're Flying Solo, don't expect help from the Natives.
Indeed.
But not because they were Scared Sheep or Don't Care - from the video, they simply didn't notice anything.
There's no audio, so I can't tell if there was any yelling, but I suspect not, from the lack of reaction.
From the bystander's point of view - who weren't staring at that table with a clear view of it to see the snatch - "some dude ran by".
That's it.
Innocent running is not so completely uncommon on city sidewalks to automatically translate into "jump up as fast as possible and stop him because he must be a thief", even in the aware and able onlooker.
The real moral is: unless you have an attentive crew with you, you're always flying solo.
Even if any of the bystanders are upstanding enough to want to help stop a thief - they have to notice that he stole something in order to do so.
Mr. Victim there was physically between the snatch and 3 of the 4 bystanders ... and Ms. 4 was looking the other way actively engaged in locking her bike.
Yea, but in my dreams I would have snatched Asshole#2, taken him some place quiet and beat him until he told me who and where his friend was so I could go get what is mine back.
In my dreams...
When I was a young, strong US Marine fresh out of boot camp, I might even have had the muscle to do so. Now, I'm old and fat (not as fat as the victum, but a little fat still) with arthritis in my hip, knees, and hands (just a touch, not TOO bad yet).
Man, video clips and things like this really make me feel old.
You are correct, at least in my state and I assume in the large neighboring state to the southwest judging by Matt G's comment.
IF #2 displayed a weapon or even "implied" one, he was bought and paid for on the spot as an armed robber fleeing the scene who had just demonstrated himself a danger to the public. But...you'd better be damned good, not just THINK you are, endanger the public in taking him out and it could all go south for you.
First, I never get out of the car in victim disarmament states if I can possibly help it.
Second:
I'd sit back down, then shoot the fucker in the back. And get in my car and run his partner over a few times. States I normally hang out in don't believe in catch and release for armed robbers.
If it happened in Chicago to me ... I would be sorely tempted to do it anyway, and then just drive away.
I'm tending to agree with the others who have pointed out that, even in the most righteous of shootings, your potential legal bills could well outweigh the price of anything in that bag short of a shipment of uncut diamonds.
Even in TX, the perils of a potential civil suit would be... well... perilous.
Right you are. Even as a cop, in an off duty encouter, I MIGHT be aable to articulate a "duty to protect" after I backshot him, in that he had just demonstrated himself a danger to the public, but I would hope my department had the 'cohones' to back me up on the impending wrongful death lawsuit.
I'm with .45ACP+P. The perp is so close that the victim could grab his gun hand and take him to the pavement.
I know a couple of well trained cops who have, in the course of their carrer, gotten their asses utterly kicked 1 on 1 by guys like that. I would give joe citizen, even with a good level of training and situational awareness, about 1 chance in 5 of getting that guy down and holding him there (even with a weapon) without getting their faces smashed in or shanked or ventilated. That guy has probably been in the joint and beaten off threats a lot toughter than you'll ever be.
As for chasing down the first guy, alone, forget it. That guy might just lead you down the next alley into a pack of hounds ready to roll you for whatever else you have on you and leave you lying. 'Fat Guy' did exactly the right thing, which was nothing, and can go home an chalk up his $500 laptop to bad position selection. Next time he can sit somewhere no one can approach him without giving him enough time to react.
They had the initiative, geography, and full field intelligence of their victim, courtesy of the shops pane-glass window.
Gives new meaning to sitting on the boulevard, sipping your latte and sucking up car exhaust fumes - especially if you are next to an alleyway or an entrance to a shop that has a full pane view of the contents of your table.
Barney was right to do nothing: Chaulk this up as tuition for the Neighborhood "Situational Awareness Program" brought to you by the local Goblin Field Trainers and be glad the course was not the "Handling Medical Emergencies" class.
I just watched the video a couple more times, and I'm sorry, but I just can't shut up.
You can see "the moment". BG#2 closed up waaayy too much on Big Fella. Well inside his personal space. He's trying not to show his gun to the whole street, just in case there's a do-gooder or off duty cop around.
They actually stand there that close for a couple seconds. Big Fella's body language is completely submissive. He's done and they both know it. So BG#2 feels like he can stand there that extra second or so and mutter stupid threatening bull***t.
AAaaaagh! Every time I watch it, a tinny little interwebz voice goes off in my head and says "All your junk are belong to us!" There's something soooo wrong about that.
Why stop there MSgt? I'd totally execute a roundhouse kick that removed his ribcage from his body! THEN, I'd be all like, "hey baby, can I borrow your bike", and she'd be all like "sure you can, stud!" And then I'd, like, totally ride down the street at a million miles an hour and do a major ass bunny hop right on top of the guy with my 'puter and he'd be all, like, "oh man, all my base are belong to this guy", and then I'd, like, totally uppercut him into the sky and he'd land, like, right in jail!
But seriously, if you can get the jump on someone who already has their hand on their weapon then you should be with the Secret Service.
Everyone who said that the fat man did the right thing is 100 percent on the money.
No offence intended MSgt :) If I didn't have a wife and kids to provide for then I might be a bit more gung ho myself. Of course, these guys are probably locals so you'd be better off providing them with their comeuppance later on your own terms. An accidental hit'n run might rob Speedy Gonzales of his ambulatory powers. Not to mention that when the paramedics arrive to stick the shock paddles on glock-boy they'll soon be on the horn to the local P.D. quick smart.
Well... fill out a policed report and move on, I guess, Jetaz.
We all make mistakes. I would think that after this, he will probably be a little more cautious as to where he sits. The bigger the financial hit, the more it should be remembered.
I still get chills from when I was parked next to a windowless van in a stripmall parking lot and was accosted for money (loss of 180 degrees of visiblitiy) in that 'kill zone' - and that occurred nearly a quarter century ago.
One plus about being a worker-bee is that you can always make more honey. Yea, robbers get stuff for 'free', but the continual and steady process of laboring honestly has a better payout long term.
But a very badly thought out plan. #1 got away clean, assuming he's capable of running a few blocks. The victim never saw anything but his back, and I don't think his whole face ever went on camera. If he was still caught somehow, it's either a misdemeanor to start with, or will be plea-bargained down to one. Then #2 turned it into armed robbery and conspiracy, gave the victim a face to remember, and also put it on tape.
The Chicago PD has many issues, but they're competent where it matters to them, and certainly don't like competition from street criminals. If that face is known to the cops, they'll be picking him up soon, and searching his known associates' places for stolen goods - and with solid evidence of armed robbery, any plea bargain will send them on a trip to the Illinois governors' retirement home...
(For anyone who really, really doesn't follow the news from Illinois, that last line refers to two governors in a row being convicted of felonies. You might be able to get your license plate made by an ex-governor in other states; in Illinois, you can pick which one!)
I have to go with MSgt and others like him on this one. Better to live one day as a loin than a thousand as a lamb. That's just how my creator made me. YMMV
In this High Tech era of video camera's, GPS trackers, and 'Remote Desktop' (if it was a computer that was taken), you are absolutely correct: this form of robbery is now about 10 years out of date.
I was marveling at the Robbers' tactics and made made note of it in written form. The mere act of robbery is deplorable, of course, and I hope the Police get them off the street.
I had thought I wouldn't need to write this qualifier considering the fact that this robbery is now broadcast throughout the world on youtube (and is now probably going to be used in various crminal justice classes - besides used in the above mentioned investigation by hte Police), but I mistaken and am now redressing the obvious.
If I'd been the victim, BG#2 would've had his face meet pavement about 1 second after he turned around and started walking, and then it would happen again a few more times in rapid succession.
Surprise works both ways, and it's hard to draw a piece from between your legs when you're belly down and having your head smashed against pavement.
PS: I've trained martial arts over a decade, but I don't think I'd bother going for gun hand or anything else tricky, I'd just close in, hook his leg with mine, and use my bodyweight and momentum to crash him to the ground, and smash his head in pavement, with both hands.
First off, I'd have done exactly what the victim did. His property was lost well before BG #2 showed up.
Having said that, I'd like to speculate on BG #2's well practiced move of lifting his shirt, grabbing his pistol, and stopping. That move seems to be complete. I wonder how many times he has practiced actually drawing the weapon and acquiring a target. Again, not saying I'd want to play Marshall Dillon with him, but that hand has to hold his gun AND keep his pants up. Not sure he would know what to do if presented with an armed response. I won't be the guy to test this theory, but it makes me curious.
I love the chairborne commandos here who would risk getting shot because their egos are larger than their brains.
Risk versus benefit analysis: Benefit: Best case scenario, you keep $500 computer.
Risk: -If you shoot the badguy, even a 'good' shoot, you WILL pay a minimum of $2,000 in legal fees, and that is just to have the attorney there when you are questioned. In this scenario, let's say that there is a 20% chance of getting shot during the encounter. There is an 80% chance you 'only' have a net loss of $1,500, and a 20% chance of death and a minimum $10,000 medical bill. I bet your health insurance doesn't cover you for gunfights.
- You go hand to hand: In this scenario, you are taking on an opponent who is likely trained to street fight in prison, and you stand a 40-50% chance of being shot.
In either case, BG#1 already has your computer.
No benefit, many risks. Learn your lesson, and don't sit in a vulnerable spot again.
The man with the gun? Not in Wyoming. Victim's rights statutes are you friend. Especially ones that forbid criminals from suing their victims for injuries incurred during a crime.
I was involved in one back in Oregon. Similar statute. Not only was the suit tossed out in five minutes, but the perp's attorney settled out of court on the frivolous litigation suit.
And yes, even with a victim's rights statute, I might be in for a court fight for nuking the guy who took the bag and just ran.
If Fat Whitey had shot the thug with a gun, 30% chance of Chicago police privatizing the thug's gun for their personal use.
Do you really want to go to court, having shot somebody who was "unarmed"? When there might or might not be video footage, when your lawyer has no way to connect the guy you shot to your missing property?
"Check please!"
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but it I outweighed my opponent by a few pounds, I believe I'd break his nose for him, just for GPs.
ReplyDeleteBoris,
ReplyDeleteWatch the second guy who comes out more closely.
So, I assume asshole #2 was showing a piece. I wonder how much trouble the fat guy would have gotten into if he shoot that fucker in the back once he turned and walked away. Probably a lot, which is a damn shame. I know, I know, we all watched the old westerns and have an ingrained dislike of "back shootin", but in my book, with the ease at which that guy throws his weight around because he's got a "gat"; it is only a matter of time before he kills someone, maybe someones mom. So, that makes shooting him under whatever circumstances a heroic, life saving, act.
ReplyDelete"Oh what if he goes strait and never threatens anyone ever again?"...
Nope, asshole already proved that he can't live in polite society.
"No fair!"...
And letting him be free to roam the streets until he kills someone merely for getting "in his way" is far to who?
s
There doesn't appear to be much you can do in that situation. Other than be aware of your surroundings.
ReplyDeleteObviously , after watching a few times, dirtbag 2 had his hand on a gun or knife. At that point is the laptop?( Im guessing) worth it? Even if that victim was carrying he was already at a disadvantage, and if he did shoot the dirtbag he probably would have been prosecuted such dirtbag 2 was a choir boy and aspiring rapper that was just turning his life around.
One other thing of note.. I noticed the video says publicsafetyillinois..I thought they have strict gun laws there?
Was asshole #2 even necessary? The first guy was a block away before fatso struggled to his feet.
ReplyDelete1) Video seems good enough to make an ID, assuming they're local boys
ReplyDelete2) I don't carry loose stuff, but my wife and daughter generally do a better job of keeping control of purses, etc.
3) Even if armed, I doubt I would be able to process the events fast enough to react properly. Ideally, fat guy would have drawn and shot #2; there is an incredibly small number of people who could do that, though.
Samsam von Virginia
Stuart the Viking,
ReplyDelete"I wonder how much trouble the fat guy would have gotten into if he shoot that fucker in the back once he turned and walked away."
I'm assuming the video is in Chicago, where guns are illegal, so the whole thing is unpossible. ;)
Even sheep have their place in society.
ReplyDeleteStephen,
ReplyDeleteOut of curiosity, what would you have done?
For starters, this is a reminder not to assume witnesses make you any safer. I can't blame them for staying out of it (though I could for not noticing anything had happened.)
ReplyDeleteI'm wishing for a blooper reel where the first guy crosses the street and is immediately crossed by a delivery truck.
Damn, but that's a tough one.
ReplyDeleteI don't whip out my laptop in public very often. When I do, it's not street-side, or near any doors. That pretty much disqualifies me - ounce of prevention, and all of that - unless I'm walking down the street with my laptop bag on my back. At that point, things have likely gone rodeo before Sumdood #2 gets there with his piece.
At this point, I don't like the way my story's going...
If anyone's got the right answer, I'm all ears. I'm stumped.
tweaker
Flipping through the Food-Court-Team-Six manual, it looks like the proper procedure would have been a quick deployment of your asp, followed by a strike to the strong hand, grabbing the heater as it was dropped, and then performing the patented 'Orange Julius' take-down maneuver.
ReplyDeleteLevel 5 operators can do it without dropping their slice of pie from Sbarro's.
I doubt if #2 has anymore than just a handful of crotch but it wouldn't make much difference, young, strong and many trump old and alone. I don't see much that could be done besides reporting it.
ReplyDeleteHonestly? Even if I was carrying in that situation I'd probably step back, call the police and move on. A laptop or netbook is what? $300, $500? You'll spend 10 times that on legal fees minimum, and that's if it's a textbook "clean shoot." My carry gun is for defending my life.
ReplyDeleteRobert Langham,
ReplyDelete"I doubt if #2 has anymore than just a handful of crotch..."
From the way he raised his shirt and his gait as he walked off, dollars to donuts he flashed a gat.
Robb Allen,
Wouldn't it just be easier to put your man purse on the ground between your foot and the wall? ;)
Tough call for sure. It all happened so fast, not sure there was much that guy could have done. However, the vindictive, grudge carrying side of myself sees it this way...
ReplyDeleteHe got a pretty good look at punk #2, punk #2 more than likely frequents that area of the city..accidents happen all the time...just saying.
Revenge is dish best served cold.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!
lol.
ReplyDeleteif someone took my notebook, I'd let them have it.
And then our office IT guy would hunt him down, and make him wish he'd never been born.
Bad situational awareness, to sit like that.
Well it's nice to see the "security" cameras living up to their reputation as fierce crime preventers.
ReplyDeleteI can close on #2 before he can draw. His weapon will do him no good when his egg cracks on the pavemnent behind him. He is certain he has the situation in his control. He would be wrong.
ReplyDeleteThat murse was gone for good before the second guy ever came up to the table.
ReplyDeleteThe victim wasn't going to run down the initial thief. He couldn't have done it even if he was just as fit as the thief; his reaction was just too late to get up and do anything.
The second guy, whom I think of as the robber, committed robbery even if he didn't flash a gat, because he quite clearly intimidated the victim, whether with a gat or with the threat of physical force. Thus, strong-arm robbery, at the very least.
The victim might just as well have said, "I was just trying to fix in my mind the exact color of my kit, so that I could order it's replacement right now. Chase? Oh hell no."
Another lesson in this tale: Notice how many of the surrounding customers jumped to his aid and attempted to subdue the Goblins? Big Fat Zero. Moral of the Story? If you're Flying Solo, don't expect help from the Natives.
ReplyDeleteI'm with .45ACP+P. The perp is so close that the victim could grab his gun hand and take him to the pavement. He is a legitimate threat at that point, and I see that as self-defense plus being a good citizen.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I don't fault the guy for backing down.
Mistake #1: Living in Chicago.
ReplyDeleteMistake #2: Being out in public more than is absolutely necessary in Chicago.
Mistake #3: Displaying something worth stealing in Chicago.
What is the common element in all these mistakes, and how can it be corrected?
Don't know if I can speak to the crime, nor to the proper response.
ReplyDeleteA note about setup: I assume BG#1 and BG#2 had scoped him from inside the shop, through the windows. BG#1 opens the door, makes a practiced snatch-and-scoot, while BG#2 follows to intimidate the vic.
Did BG#2 need to do that? Was he just backup, in case the vic gave chase?
It's hard to defend against a 2-man team like that, unless you have some idea of their intentions before they move.
It would probably have been hard to defend against BG#1 working solo, as long as he could disappear around a corner or into a crowd.
If I though I could, and if I thought quick enough?
ReplyDeleteLeft hand grabs his wrist while right hand draws a knife and sticks it in his gut. Since grabbing something with my left hand and holding it and drawing my knife with my right and cutting is something I do every day I know I can do it quickly without even thinking about. Possibly could do the same with a pistol, but I'm pretty sure I could get a knife out faster.
The question is, would I? I don't know that I would anymore than anyone else knows that I wouldn't. The problem with this is that we can talk about 'what ifs' all day long, but until you're actually in the thick of it you don't know what's going to go down.
I can tell you one advantage everyone of us who has watched the video has over the guy in it, though. We've thought about what we would do in a similar situation, and gamed it out in our heads a little bit. And we've gotten a reminder to pay attention to what's going on around us.
You can see BG#2 didnt have a holster, his piece was just stuck in his saggy waist band. If you were to make a grab for it, Ala Wyatt Earp in Tombstone you could probably force a fumble.
ReplyDeleteWhat then happens when the older, graying cracker-whitey runs his stupid ass down inside of about 200 yards, then beats him senseless?
ReplyDeleteJust asking.
irritablearchitect,
ReplyDeleteDid you not see the video?
The smart thing to do is be a good witness.
ReplyDeleteSaying that if some ahole wants to point a gun at his junk after he helped ripped me off I might want to help him pull the trigger.
It really depends on how my day was going up to that point.
Gerry
I can close on #2 before he can draw. His weapon will do him no good when his egg cracks on the pavemnent behind him. He is certain he has the situation in his control. He would be wrong.
ReplyDeleteYeah...
I'm gonna say attacking unarmed against a violent criminal with a handgun rather than letting said criminal walk away is a, ah, tactically unsound decision.
I'd be humiliated and furious too, but proving my strength to the witnesses ain't worth risking a bullet wound.
It's all based on surprise and speed. The thieves have their plan and have done this before. You on the other hand are having a latte and checking your email.
ReplyDeleteSmart move on the victim's part. Very educational.
BG#2 is nicely practiced at the grabbing his threatening object of choice.
ReplyDeleteThat's a hell of a loosing situation there.
Only thing you can do is decide if you are going to file a police report or not. This battle was lost before the first shot was fired(metaphorically). It happened in seconds, the bad guys had a plan, executed it well. They had speed, surprise, intiative, security and surveillance. I mean they followed Troop Leading Procedures, principles of the raid and METT-TC without knowing it. They executed that raid in a manner that if they were in the military their NCO would have been proud.
ReplyDeleteThe victim was an easy mark. Fat, slow, flashing items of value. Best advice is never go back ther again. Brutal fact of life, sometimes you lose.
Geez Tam. You aren't going easy on my heart this week. That one made it skip.
ReplyDeleteMy .02
The guy can keep the computer. 500$ isn't worth a bullet in the gut from some punk kid.
I would close any bank accounts and passwords that I accessed from that machine.
I would call the police. (Formality. They aren't worth a spit in a case like this anyway.)
If he has the serial number written down and reports it that computer won't be worth anything to them if they try to pawn it.
Then I would adjust my habits and not visit that place again.
Tam,
ReplyDeleteDid that.
I'm not a soft, fatass schmuck.
Mr. Fatso could have totally charged BG#2 from behind as soon as he turned his back and started strutting down the street.
ReplyDeleteBut since I'm not Mr. Fatso and have no idea what his previous experience is with violent crime, I can't fault him for sitting down while the adrenaline dump starts pumping through his system. And he probably got a better view of what BG#2 grabbed than we did.
Personally, my Fire Support Team would have re-enacted one those funny movie scenes where a badguy tries something and everyone within a 50-foot radius stands and draws a weapon.
But I don't live in Chicago, either.
Realistically, what would I do? Very much the same as the guy in the vid did. I would keep my humiliation as motivation to be a bit more...conscious of my environment in future.
ReplyDeleteCarrying or not, the event was over before it seemed to start. Now then, if the second guy had decided to take his intimidation further, well who knows.
Bottom line: I am worth more than a stupid purse/laptop or whatever. If the guys aim was to avoid being injured or killed, he achieved that 100%.
Oh yes, and I believe in Karma too. Those F***ers will get theirs soon, of that I am sure.
Cheers- Rusty
...and some days, the bear gets your Macbook.
ReplyDeleteI'd really, really like to say that I could have used my left hand to jam dood #2's gun hand into his pants, brought my gun out with my right and just played it by ear from there.
But in reality, I would have been so derp?! over dood #1 jogging away with my laptop that dood #2 might not have even registered until a few moments later. "Woah, he had a gun!"
Anyway, I think the real lesson is that avoiding or mitigating this particular situation had to happen way before the video starts. Is an urban outdoor cafe, at a table within arms reach of both the exit and the street, the best place to be engrossed in internet dramaz?
As the economy continues to tank and SSI and food stamps buys less and less, we're going to see more of this. Plan accordingly.
"As the economy continues to tank and SSI and food stamps buys less and less, we're going to see more of this."
ReplyDeleteThank you Joe Biden.
I live in a free state and I would have taken my chances with shooting him in the back. It's the only way they learn not to do that kind of shit.
ReplyDeleteOther alternative- Pull and tell him to put his hands up and get on the ground. Wait for the police, who could take him in* find his accomplice. If he decides to go happy funtime on you, shoot him.
The point is, the reason sociopathic urbanites do such things is because nobody takes the chance of just ending their shit on the spot.
* this is going down in my state, not IL. If you live in IL, you should have moved a log time ago. Sucks to be you.
So the shoot, roll and then rotate the head like an owl tactic didn't work here?
ReplyDeleteRobb, Tam says that you carry a murse, sounds like a blog war to me.
The property was irretrievable from the point where it was snatched up. No force is involved and property value is not what you gave at the POS. Dependent upon the state the theft could be no more than a misdemeanor offense. Other than the outside chance of seeing where he went or if he got into a vehicle the property owner had little likelihood of any satisfaction. The second subject could either change the theft to a robbery or be separated into a separate aggravated assault, mostly dependent on the whim of judiciary. Given the proximity involved with the second subject the victim was optioned out and got out of it intact. It suck’s to be a victim.
ReplyDeleteFatso made the right choice. For the situation he was in. Even leaving aside Sumdood #2, Fatso was not going to be able to chase down Sumdood #1 and recover his property. And not getting into a violent altercation with the guy who was deeply inside his OODA loop was the right decision.
ReplyDeleteThe take away message for me is, "How do I plan ahead to keep something like this from happening to me?"
As I already refuse to sit in a public place with my back to anything but a wall, and I refuse to sit in open cafes or near doors, and I wander around in condition orange, I am not sure what other steps I can take to reduce my risk of this kind of robbery.
That being said, between this story and the one you posted yesterday, I think that it is time for me to start doing Krav Maga again. And probably find another pistol training class.
I carry a shoulder bag ("purse") all the time.
ReplyDeleteWhen I'm sitting out in public eating, it's on the floor away from traffic, with the strap looped over my leg - not sitting up where any jerk can just grab it and run.
(In a place like that I'd consider slipping the strap under the chair, in fact.)
That's not even active situational awareness - just remembering that there's always some jerk around, and that jerks like easy prey.
"I live in a free state and I would have taken my chances with shooting him in the back. It's the only way they learn not to do that kind of shit."
ReplyDeleteI'd pay admission to see that court case. Might be Texas, but how well do those shootings really do in front of a judge?
Bubblehead said: Notice how many of the surrounding customers jumped to his aid and attempted to subdue the Goblins? Big Fat Zero. Moral of the Story? If you're Flying Solo, don't expect help from the Natives.
ReplyDeleteIndeed.
But not because they were Scared Sheep or Don't Care - from the video, they simply didn't notice anything.
There's no audio, so I can't tell if there was any yelling, but I suspect not, from the lack of reaction.
From the bystander's point of view - who weren't staring at that table with a clear view of it to see the snatch - "some dude ran by".
That's it.
Innocent running is not so completely uncommon on city sidewalks to automatically translate into "jump up as fast as possible and stop him because he must be a thief", even in the aware and able onlooker.
The real moral is: unless you have an attentive crew with you, you're always flying solo.
Even if any of the bystanders are upstanding enough to want to help stop a thief - they have to notice that he stole something in order to do so.
Mr. Victim there was physically between the snatch and 3 of the 4 bystanders ... and Ms. 4 was looking the other way actively engaged in locking her bike.
Yea, but in my dreams I would have snatched Asshole#2, taken him some place quiet and beat him until he told me who and where his friend was so I could go get what is mine back.
ReplyDeleteIn my dreams...
When I was a young, strong US Marine fresh out of boot camp, I might even have had the muscle to do so. Now, I'm old and fat (not as fat as the victum, but a little fat still) with arthritis in my hip, knees, and hands (just a touch, not TOO bad yet).
Man, video clips and things like this really make me feel old.
s
The lesson here is stay out of Chicago and any other place where America used to be.
ReplyDeleteTam,
ReplyDeleteAh, Tracking like a proverbial TOW now.
Didn't that escalate from snatching to armed robbery with the display of the piece?
ReplyDeletemontieth,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct, at least in my state and I assume in the large neighboring state to the southwest judging by Matt G's comment.
IF #2 displayed a weapon or even "implied" one, he was bought and paid for on the spot as an armed robber fleeing the scene who had just demonstrated himself a danger to the public. But...you'd better be damned good, not just THINK you are, endanger the public in taking him out and it could all go south for you.
Tam:
ReplyDeleteFirst, I never get out of the car in victim disarmament states if I can possibly help it.
Second:
I'd sit back down, then shoot the fucker in the back. And get in my car and run his partner over a few times. States I normally hang out in don't believe in catch and release for armed robbers.
If it happened in Chicago to me ... I would be sorely tempted to do it anyway, and then just drive away.
Kristopher,
ReplyDeleteI'm tending to agree with the others who have pointed out that, even in the most righteous of shootings, your potential legal bills could well outweigh the price of anything in that bag short of a shipment of uncut diamonds.
Even in TX, the perils of a potential civil suit would be... well... perilous.
Tam,
ReplyDeleteRight you are. Even as a cop, in an off duty encouter, I MIGHT be aable to articulate a "duty to protect" after I backshot him, in that he had just demonstrated himself a danger to the public, but I would hope my department had the 'cohones' to back me up on the impending wrongful death lawsuit.
Stuart, the (Texas) jury who tried the killer of John Wesley Hardin acquitted him, though he shot him in the back, excusing it as self-defense.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, both of their holsters were made by the El Paso Saddlery, and you can still buy a duplicate of either one from them.
Sometimes bystanders rush to the rescue.
ReplyDeleteMan who shot robber won't be charged
I'm with .45ACP+P. The perp is so close that the victim could grab his gun hand and take him to the pavement.
ReplyDeleteI know a couple of well trained cops who have, in the course of their carrer, gotten their asses utterly kicked 1 on 1 by guys like that. I would give joe citizen, even with a good level of training and situational awareness, about 1 chance in 5 of getting that guy down and holding him there (even with a weapon) without getting their faces smashed in or shanked or ventilated. That guy has probably been in the joint and beaten off threats a lot toughter than you'll ever be.
As for chasing down the first guy, alone, forget it. That guy might just lead you down the next alley into a pack of hounds ready to roll you for whatever else you have on you and leave you lying. 'Fat Guy' did exactly the right thing, which was nothing, and can go home an chalk up his $500 laptop to bad position selection. Next time he can sit somewhere no one can approach him without giving him enough time to react.
Nicely choreographed by the bad guys.
ReplyDeleteThey had the initiative, geography, and full field intelligence of their victim, courtesy of the shops pane-glass window.
Gives new meaning to sitting on the boulevard, sipping your latte and sucking up car exhaust fumes - especially if you are next to an alleyway or an entrance to a shop that has a full pane view of the contents of your table.
Barney was right to do nothing: Chaulk this up as tuition for the Neighborhood "Situational Awareness Program" brought to you by the local Goblin Field Trainers and be glad the course was not the "Handling Medical Emergencies" class.
Oh. Come. On. People.
ReplyDeletePresumably, BG#2 was threatening Big Fella with a pistol.
Stuck in the front of his pants.
Aimed at his own junk.
Within arms reach...
God in Heaven. That's the first time I ever watched a video like that and honestly wished I could have been the "victim"
I can take a couple-few punches to the face before I go down. All I need is time to get to the trigger.
I just watched the video a couple more times, and I'm sorry, but I just can't shut up.
ReplyDeleteYou can see "the moment". BG#2 closed up waaayy too much on Big Fella. Well inside his personal space. He's trying not to show his gun to the whole street, just in case there's a do-gooder or off duty cop around.
They actually stand there that close for a couple seconds. Big Fella's body language is completely submissive. He's done and they both know it. So BG#2 feels like he can stand there that extra second or so and mutter stupid threatening bull***t.
AAaaaagh! Every time I watch it, a tinny little interwebz voice goes off in my head and says "All your junk are belong to us!"
There's something soooo wrong about that.
Why stop there MSgt?
ReplyDeleteI'd totally execute a roundhouse kick that removed his ribcage from his body!
THEN, I'd be all like, "hey baby, can I borrow your bike", and she'd be all like "sure you can, stud!"
And then I'd, like, totally ride down the street at a million miles an hour and do a major ass bunny hop right on top of the guy with my 'puter and he'd be all, like, "oh man, all my base are belong to this guy", and then I'd, like, totally uppercut him into the sky and he'd land, like, right in jail!
But seriously, if you can get the jump on someone who already has their hand on their weapon then you should be with the Secret Service.
Everyone who said that the fat man did the right thing is 100 percent on the money.
I saw that, too, MSgt.
ReplyDeleteBarney was caught totally flat-footed. Probably thinking about Double-Cheeseburgers and enjoying the car fumes.
Surprise appears to be total and it looks like this has been done _many_ times by the two Goblins. Just watch the timing:
Oblivious-Cluelessness... Surprise... Scan for fast disappearing Goblin1... immediate threat/distraction by Goblin2... shutdown...
All in 5 seconds.
Great performance on their part. They probably have several spots where they do this all day long looking for prey that looks fat dumb and happy.
Too bad Goblins live in a high tech era. GPS Trackers are getting smaller and smaller.
"Go ahead... take my bag..."
LOL
ReplyDeleteAusprepper, you got me. I came off sounding like a total mall ninja. I couldn't help myself.
Still, would I go for his gun?
Probably yes.
Good idea?
Probably no.
Wouldn't be the first time I made a s***ty decision.
No offence intended MSgt :) If I didn't have a wife and kids to provide for then I might be a bit more gung ho myself.
ReplyDeleteOf course, these guys are probably locals so you'd be better off providing them with their comeuppance later on your own terms.
An accidental hit'n run might rob Speedy Gonzales of his ambulatory powers. Not to mention that when the paramedics arrive to stick the shock paddles on glock-boy they'll soon be on the horn to the local P.D. quick smart.
Awesome blog you've got there Aus.
ReplyDeleteIt went on my "read more often than Tam's" list. (just kidding Tam)
It hurt me reading about the crap you have to go through to have a gun in your country.
Show up in my neighborhood sometime and we'll go shooting on my dime.
Check your FB.
So, since it seems to be unanimous that the victim made the right decision, what is the next step for him to try to recover his property?
ReplyDeleteDoes he simply call the police and wait and see, or does he take more... proactive measures? Such as the hit and run Ausprepper mentioned.
@jetaz:
ReplyDeleteWell... fill out a policed report and move on, I guess, Jetaz.
We all make mistakes. I would think that after this, he will probably be a little more cautious as to where he sits. The bigger the financial hit, the more it should be remembered.
I still get chills from when I was parked next to a windowless van in a stripmall parking lot and was accosted for money (loss of 180 degrees of visiblitiy) in that 'kill zone' - and that occurred nearly a quarter century ago.
One plus about being a worker-bee is that you can always make more honey. Yea, robbers get stuff for 'free', but the continual and steady process of laboring honestly has a better payout long term.
Interesting how the Gabe Suarez AIWB carry method is trickling down into the community.
ReplyDelete"Nicely choreographed by the bad guys."
ReplyDeleteBut a very badly thought out plan. #1 got away clean, assuming he's capable of running a few blocks. The victim never saw anything but his back, and I don't think his whole face ever went on camera. If he was still caught somehow, it's either a misdemeanor to start with, or will be plea-bargained down to one. Then #2 turned it into armed robbery and conspiracy, gave the victim a face to remember, and also put it on tape.
The Chicago PD has many issues, but they're competent where it matters to them, and certainly don't like competition from street criminals. If that face is known to the cops, they'll be picking him up soon, and searching his known associates' places for stolen goods - and with solid evidence of armed robbery, any plea bargain will send them on a trip to the Illinois governors' retirement home...
(For anyone who really, really doesn't follow the news from Illinois, that last line refers to two governors in a row being convicted of felonies. You might be able to get your license plate made by an ex-governor in other states; in Illinois, you can pick which one!)
I have to go with MSgt and others like him on this one. Better to live one day as a loin than a thousand as a lamb. That's just how my creator made me. YMMV
ReplyDelete@markm:
ReplyDelete"But a very badly thought out plan. "
In this High Tech era of video camera's, GPS trackers, and 'Remote Desktop' (if it was a computer that was taken), you are absolutely correct: this form of robbery is now about 10 years out of date.
I was marveling at the Robbers' tactics and made made note of it in written form. The mere act of robbery is deplorable, of course, and I hope the Police get them off the street.
I had thought I wouldn't need to write this qualifier considering the fact that this robbery is now broadcast throughout the world on youtube (and is now probably going to be used in various crminal justice classes - besides used in the above mentioned investigation by hte Police), but I mistaken and am now redressing the obvious.
Much appreciated MGst.
ReplyDeleteIf I'd been the victim, BG#2 would've had his face meet pavement about 1 second after he turned around and started walking, and then it would happen again a few more times in rapid succession.
ReplyDeleteSurprise works both ways, and it's hard to draw a piece from between your legs when you're belly down and having your head smashed against pavement.
PS: I've trained martial arts over a decade, but I don't think I'd bother going for gun hand or anything else tricky, I'd just close in, hook his leg with mine, and use my bodyweight and momentum to crash him to the ground, and smash his head in pavement, with both hands.
ReplyDeleteMakes you wonder if there wouldn't be a market for exploding dye packs and remote detonators for laptops.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I'd have done exactly what the victim did. His property was lost well before BG #2 showed up.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I'd like to speculate on BG #2's well practiced move of lifting his shirt, grabbing his pistol, and stopping. That move seems to be complete. I wonder how many times he has practiced actually drawing the weapon and acquiring a target. Again, not saying I'd want to play Marshall Dillon with him, but that hand has to hold his gun AND keep his pants up. Not sure he would know what to do if presented with an armed response. I won't be the guy to test this theory, but it makes me curious.
I love the chairborne commandos here who would risk getting shot because their egos are larger than their brains.
ReplyDeleteRisk versus benefit analysis:
Benefit:
Best case scenario, you keep $500 computer.
Risk:
-If you shoot the badguy, even a 'good' shoot, you WILL pay a minimum of $2,000 in legal fees, and that is just to have the attorney there when you are questioned.
In this scenario, let's say that there is a 20% chance of getting shot during the encounter.
There is an 80% chance you 'only' have a net loss of $1,500, and a 20% chance of death and a minimum $10,000 medical bill. I bet your health insurance doesn't cover you for gunfights.
- You go hand to hand: In this scenario, you are taking on an opponent who is likely trained to street fight in prison, and you stand a 40-50% chance of being shot.
In either case, BG#1 already has your computer.
No benefit, many risks. Learn your lesson, and don't sit in a vulnerable spot again.
The man with the gun? Not in Wyoming. Victim's rights statutes are you friend. Especially ones that forbid criminals from suing their victims for injuries incurred during a crime.
ReplyDeleteI was involved in one back in Oregon. Similar statute. Not only was the suit tossed out in five minutes, but the perp's attorney settled out of court on the frivolous litigation suit.
And yes, even with a victim's rights statute, I might be in for a court fight for nuking the guy who took the bag and just ran.
Better to live one day as a loin than a thousand as a lamb.
ReplyDelete~ Anon.
I know that was just a typo, but it really got me laughing.
Now I'm going to spend the next few weeks looking for the opportunity to tell someone "I live like a loin, not a lamb."
And how do we know that BG3 was not walking down the sidewalk with a tire tool?
ReplyDeleteThe law says not to offer deadly force to protect property. That's good advice.
If Fat Whitey had shot the thug with a gun, 30% chance of Chicago police privatizing the thug's gun for their personal use.
ReplyDeleteDo you really want to go to court, having shot somebody who was "unarmed"? When there might or might not be video footage, when your lawyer has no way to connect the guy you shot to your missing property?
For update, this occurred in Champaign, IL one block off the U of I campus. One perp has turned himself in.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wandtv.com/global/story.asp?s=15964208