Saturday, January 05, 2013

How's that work, again?

So the German government has decided to centralize and nationalize its firearms registry, rather than leave it in the hands of the states. Not even the control freaks who were running the place in the '30s did that.
Germany has compiled a national register of firearms for the first time. Figures previously held by a multitude of local authorities have been centrally pooled as part of efforts to curb gun violence. 
I'm sure we've been over this before, but maybe there have been new developments of which I'm unaware, so tell me something: How does gun registration do a single thing to curb gun violence?

If I write down my name and address and my gun's serial number on a 3x5" index card and hand it to you, how can you use that index card to keep me from shooting somebody, other than maybe waving it in my face in an attempt to throw off my aim?

Gun registration does nothing... can do nothing... to curb gun violence. All it can do is tell you who the gun belonged to at some point in in the past, should you happen to find it dropped at the murder scene, next to the cooling body.

At best it's a placebo to the perpetually fearful, while at worst (and historically it's nearly always been worst) it's a prelude to confiscation.


docjim505 said...

If anybody ought to understand the dangers of giving too much power to the central government, it ought to be the Germans.

Firehand said...

Constantly amazes me how people who insist they adore personal liberty and HATE the government digging into their life somehow just freakin' LOVE the idea of the .gov keeping lists of what people own.

And when you call them on it, they insist 'it's for the public safety!' or the ever-present "We've got to do SOMETHING!"

Fred said...

Gives them somebody to charge with "improper storage of a firearm" or something similarly stupid after it's stolen and used in a crime; thus making them feel good about them selves because they did something.

og said...

In other news, the Canajans have dropped theirs and destroyed the records.

Other than Qebec. Liberals love to double down on stupid.

John Peddie (Toronto) said...

og's right, for long guns. Registration was implemented a generation ago after a mass school-shooting in Quebec (female engineering student victims).

Handguns remain very strictly controlled and registered here.

Meanwhile, bazillions of dollars were wasted to prove that criminals can always get handguns, and don't care about firearms registration offenses anyway.

But harassing duck hunters?

That had a certain voter appeal to the (then) Liberal government.

perlhaqr said...

DocJim: "If anybody ought to understand the dangers of giving [strike]too much[/strike] that power to the central government, it ought to be the Germans."

I mean, good God, really? Did we not already dance this particular waltz less than a hundred years ago?

(Imagine that the strike tag worked in comments here. ;) )

Jake (formerly Riposte3) said...

To be fair to the Germans (not that it really changes anything significantly), as I understand it they are centralizing the records to meet an EU requirement, and all other EU nations that also handle registration state-by-state will have to do the same thing fairly soon.

But, yeah, you'd think they would have learned their lesson on this particular issue about 70 years ago.

Crotalus said...

Nazi's making a comeback in Germany?

Graybeard said...

Gun registration does nothing... can do nothing... to curb gun violence.

The purpose of laws is not to prevent crime it's to mete out punishment. There's only a bazillion examples of this.

But we sure are headed into a dark, dark time, aren't we?

T.Stahl said...

No, Tam, it's not for that purpose. The centralized (and computerized) national register of (legal!) guns is to enable the police to check beforehand (and outside the usual opening hours of German authorities) whether there is a (legal!) firearm in a house/flat when they are called to a case of domestic violence.

See! It does serve a purpose!

Because, you know, when the police know that there is a (legal!) gun present, they will behave differently and take the right precautions.

Of course that would only work if there were only the 7-10 million legal guns in Germany and not the 20-30 million illegal ones...

Trav said...

Au contraire, mademoiselle. In 1919, the Reichstag banned all civilian firearms ownership. It wasn't until '28 that a permit system was instituted.

Tamara (remotely) said...


"Au contraire, mademoiselle. In 1919, the Reichstag banned all civilian firearms ownership."

I was referring to centralized national registration, not bans.

Mattexian said...

Yes it will curb gun violence, once you follow it to its next step of confiscation (I know, *they* always say they won't do that, but so far... ). Since the nannies equate gun violence as you defending yourself with a gun from little Timmy the choirboy when he breaks in at 0-dark-30, with you being shot with a gun stolen by little Timmy, it's a DoublePlusFeelGood win-win for them, living in their gated communities and working inside their private-armed-security guarded offices.

John Stephens said...

Oh, but back then the Right People weren't in charge. This time it's different!

Anonymous said...

This just in,from the US Dept of Placebos for the Perpetually Fearful ,"Hey,that's a good idea".

Anonymous said...

Hummm.....Lets see, why the push for world wide civilian disarmerment? Why disarm with such urgency? What have they done, Or are about to do, that makes them so afraid? Who is making this push to disarm with such speed? Do ANY of you still belive that congress, the presedent, or news phonys are listening to you, or care what you think? Or how you vote?--- This attack is not just in the US and Europe ,Its world wide and moveing FAST.

treefroggy said...

Something wicked this way comes.

Fuzzy Curmudgeon said...

Funny. Could have sworn I owned a handgun. Can't seem to find it. Sorry, orificer.

Anonymous said...

Well, there's an approved name registry there (along with Sveden and Iceland, just ask "Girl"), so they're really just trying to keep things um, "uniform", as it were.

Not sure the name registry will lead to confiscation...but it wouldn't be the first time.


K said...

Forget it Jake, it's Germany.

Anonymous said...

Those who do not study history are condemmed to repete it!!!

dumb liberal socialists!!!


Ancient Woodsman said...

In elementary school, a large boy two years older would sit down at lunch, take my brownie, split it & give me back half and say, "Now we can share." Like government, the force was implied, the threat was real, and he smiled when he did it. Whether brownies, money, property or liberty, this is what politicians have in mind when they ask you to "compromise".

They will ask us to 'compromise' until we have nothing left. All the 'civilized' countries are doing the gun-control thingy. What could possibly go wrong?

BatChainPuller said...

I certainly understand people using big government to punish morons like that poopie head Wayne LaPierre.

What always ceases to amaze me though, is how freely they discard the rights of future generations of helpless innocents for that time when the "Right People" are no longer in charge.

RevolverRob said...

The question has been posed, "Didn't Germany learn it's lesson from this?" Yes. They learned next time to not round up and exterminate the population. But rather round them up and deport them under trumped up charges. Charges that hide state sponsored racism, antisemitism, and Islamophobia.

I was just in the Der Vaterland in the middle of last year, and was the victim of some pretty heinous racism. I've been a Mexican in Texas for 27 years and never been subjected to the type of "enlightened" social treatment as I was in Germany.

Germany just elected a radical right wing party to power. In Northern Germany neo-Nazi and radical Christian groups are common. They recently proposed legislation that would effectively outlaw the practice of Islam and Judaism in Germany. Did they learn there lesson? It would appear the answer is a resounding no.

For those who haven't been to the old country recently, I'd suggest traveling there soon before the EU implodes and leaves its entrails all over a population that still hasn't figured out that in the 21st century you do not have to be a serf to the governor.


Old NFO said...

Yep, step one...

staghounds said...

I've ben a prosecutor in a violent place for a long time.

Only ONE TIME have I seen a criminal homicide where the weapon was left at the scene.

A registry will produce more false chargings than it will convictions of the guilty.

Angus McThag said...

Let's conduct an experiment.

Send me a card with the serial number of your favorite gun.

I will then forbid you to take it to the range.

Then see if you can.

Anonymous said...


Heinous Racism in Germany usually involves Zyklon B. Care to elaborate on what happened to you?

Also, "radical right-wing" political parties in western Europe equate to Sen. Joe Leiberman in the US (his religion not withstanding). Nazism and Fascism is already illegal in Germany. Speech doesn't not have 1st Amendment protection in Germany ('cuz, duh!) so why expect religion to be protected?

T.Stahl said...

Sorry, I have to call bullshit on what RevolverBob wrote.
1) It's DAS Vater-/Mutterland.
2) The Federal German government currently consists of the Christian Democrats (CDU) and the Free Democrats (FDP). While economically on the right side, both are far less authoritarian than either the American Democrats or Republicans. The current combination CDU+FDP was elected in 2009, not recently.
Which "radical right wing party" do you mean?
3) That "recently proposed legislation that would effectively outlaw the practice of Islam and Judaism" was a ruling by one of the higher courts that the religious freedom of parents doesn't trump a child's right to physical integrity, whether parents should have the right to have their underage son's penis circumsized.

Anonymous said...

What Stahl said.

Justthisguy said...

Oh, Tam, you rational woman, you!

I hereby volunteer to buy the drinks when you meet up with the ghost of Pancho Barnes and commiserate with her about the sorryness of the general run of humans these days.

JohninMd.(HELP?!) said...

Yeah. Saw a movie once, about a world where only the police and military had guns. Perhaps you've heard of it? "Shindler's List"

Trav said...


Copy. I was looking at it from a "they've been WAY past registration before" point of view.


T.Stahl said...

Actually the thing to complain about is not that they want to build up a centralized, computerized national _registry_ of legal guns. They have that information already. The authorities know (or should know, if they are able to keep a simple file) which guns - complete with make, model, caliber and S/N - I purchased when from whom and on which of the licenses they issued me.

The things to complain about are:
1) the money they will waste to convert the paper based de-centralized registry to a central computer-based one and
2) that once all that information is centralized, the data can be stolen from a centralized source* and
3) the false sense of security the police will (not) enjoy when their check for legal guns comes up negative.**

*) Not too unlikely considering the recent cases where thieves/insiders offered CDs with data regarding German tax evaders in Switzerland, other cases where CDs containing personalized data were lost, and the cases in which registries of online game customers were hacked.
**) Considering the 20-30 million illegal guns in Germany, a police officer should _always_ assume the presence of guns on the other side, not only when he knows that there are legal guns!

Anonymous said...

T. Stahl:

Your comments present a technically accurate and entirely clueless take on the gist of this post.


T.Stahl said...

And what might that be that I'm clueless about?

Ted N said...

Wanna add a little more meat to that post, Anon 10:01? Now I'm curious about what he's supposedly missing too.

MicroBalrog said...

The purpose is very simple: make gun ownership as humanly annoying and paper-wrapped as possible, so as little people as possible own guns.

T.Stahl said...

No, that is not the purpose of the new legislation. It will not cause me any more work. I ALREADY have to fill in a form stating seller, make, type, caliber and S/N of gun purchased, date of purchase, number and issueing authority of license used.

AND the same has to be done by the seller, so the authorities get the basically same info from the seller and buyer.

Anonymous said...

Most of our legally owned firearms are indeed already "confiscation-ready" here in Europe. I guess that's what T.Stahl means. As a matter of confiscation this won't do much. We're essentially already fucked.

There are nonetheless tons of firearms that are unregistered:
1/ firearms bought before registration was mandatory and people (wisely) chose not to register
2/ surplus / leftovers from WWII
3/ modern firearms imported through "alternate channels"

Anyway, Western Europe hasn't learnt any lesson from the 20th century. Those defects ("the government knows best what to do") are hard-grained into human psyche.

There's no real respect for the individual. It all goes downhill from there.

I guess Eastern Europeans might have a much better understanding of things as they've experienced the hard way the lasted iteration of "government knows best: gulag edition".

Steve said...

We have the political power to win this. Remember 1994. Make sure that your elected representative do too.

Steve said...

Your argument is unassailable but I would re-phrase it for more emotional impact. We have all of the facts on our side but we need to simplify them for dumbed down America.
"Obama wants to register law abiding Americans like child molesters."
I'm sure that we can come up with a few lines that will communicate how repulsive our political enemies are and repeat them until they penetrate the American conciousnes.

T.Stahl said...

You are hijacking a post.
This post is about a GERMAN centralized registry of legal guns, not an AMERICAN.

Anonymous said...

"The things to complain about are:
1) the money they will waste to convert the paper based de-centralized registry to a central computer-based one and
2) that once all that information is centralized, the data can be stolen from a centralized source* and
3) the false sense of security the police will (not) enjoy when their check for legal guns comes up negative."

That your only concerns as to what Tam calls in her last sentence a "...prelude to confiscation." pertaining to the actions of a government and society still haunted by the dark vestiges of its past was my point. It could be that you are too close to see the potential; we on this side of the pond see it clearly as portent of your future...and our own. it happen? It could if our concerns revolve around economic ineptitude and careless storage of data instead of the threat of government control of our ability to protect ourselves from them; this ain't Facebook we're talking about here.


T.Stahl said...

How often do I have to repeat that the German authorities ALREADY know which guns I own?
If they decided to confiscate all guns of a certain category, they could ALREADY do it.
They already did that when they banned "non-single-shot handguns, built after Jan 1st 1070 in centerfire calibers below 6.3mm that are not propelled by the primer only."

Steve said...

I hardly see how that is your call, Mr. Stahl, or how bickering among ourselves helps anyone. Do you really think that the situation in Germany has no parallel to our current situation here in the USA? I welcome ideas from freedom loving individuals anywhere in the world. I hope that mine can be of some help to you.
Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

T.Stahl said...

1/1/1970 of course.

Anonymous said...

With the storm coming from the Obama administration, you could hardly blame Steve for drawing parallels with the US.

I like your slogan Steve. And while showing the general public that shooting, hunting is fun and entertaining, you should - as you do now - always teach what the 2A really is all about.

Back in Europe we have lost that fight without even fighting...

Calimero (I'm Annon @ 7:46 AM)

Paul said...

"The things to complain about are:
1) the money they will waste to convert the paper based de-centralized registry to a central computer-based one and
2) that once all that information is centralized, the data can be stolen from a centralized source* and
3) the false sense of security the police will (not) enjoy when their check for legal guns comes up negative."

Exactly the concerns raised in Canada when ours started. They didn't listen, because, like everyone knows, the only purpose of a registry is to use it to make a confiscation list.

Ask any Canadian who USED to own a Frianci SPAS 12, MP-5 or several other firearms that were declared "Prohibited" last time around and confiscated without compensation.

I could go on for hours about the screwup that is our system up here in Canada.

That is why we fought so hard to get rid of ours.

Anonymous said...

T. Stahl,

*Centralized* registry is a prelude to confiscation is a prelude to...???

Hard to see how you don't -or won't- grok that.


T.Stahl said...

it is not the centralization of the German gun registry that can lead to or make a confiscation possible, it is the registration itself.

And that has been in place for decades.

And has already been used for limited confiscation.

So, please stop to claim that now that the registry will be centralized it can lead to confiscation.

Anonymous said...

So the war is lost; might as well surrender.

Maybe it's the Southern in me that makes me go HELLZNO! to centralized gov...

And maybe concentration of power has never been a problem in the history of Deutschland governance?

But I suspect that you are just stubbornly or resignedly refusing to acknowledge the progressive and proven danger that is inherent therein.


T.Stahl said...

I'm not for registration. Just like you I think it's none of the governments *beep*ing business to know if or what guns I own as long as I don't *beep* up and harm others.

What I'm complaining about or what I try to correct is some people's impression or opinion that SUDDENLY the German government decided to register all legal guns. They did that four decades ago. And provided a the German civil servants know how to keep a file (which I sometimes doubt but that's another story), all guns in legal possession are already registered. The new register will not register any additional guns.

Do you think that centralizing that database makes the already possible (!) confiscation easier?

Well, the old, de-centralized gun register has already proved that it works just fine for confiscating guns, no central register necessary.

I see the most immediate danger for the police officers that will be called to a house for whatever reason, check that new and handy central register that's accessible on weekends beforehand for legal guns, and when that check comes up negative assume that there are no guns present at all.
And then, in a false sense of security, are caught unprepared.

Will said...

Did they do that non-centralized gun registration about the time that we copied some of the Nazi era gun regs? (1968 GCA)

As I recall, the US Army officials found those town hall gun registries very useful when they rolled into a freshly overrun area.

T.Stahl said...

It started in the early fourties when the Red Army Faction began targeting politicians, industrialists and attorney generals.