On the PPK: We're looking for a gun that A)Fits in a pocket and B)Works. Not a sexy-looking malfunction-prone brick that would have ceased production decades ago if not for Ian Fleming.
On the J-frame vs. the teeny polymer .380s: All-in-all, I like a J-frame, too, but it's a bit large for true pocket carry (at least in my clothes.) If it'll fit in your trouser pockets, I'd climb over a pile of mini-380s to get to a six-shot .32 H&R/.327 Mag J-frame.
My recurring Ron Cohen rant: Why SIG came out with their recent abortion of a Colt Mustang knockoff when they already had the P232, which is the Cadillac of .380s, in their stable is beyond me. I used a P232 for vest pocket/coat pocket/purse carry for years before I went over to the S&W Centennials. ...oh, I forgot: P238 = PROFIT! Easily changed fancy grips and blingy controls and funky finishes and laser-etched froofery appeals to the customer base they're trying to steal from Kimber.
I swear, jackdaws with CCW permits must be a more lucrative target market than I would have thought.
48 comments:
I don't see anyone questioning why Sig came out with a 1911 when their other arms are superior.
It seems as if you are suggesting that Sig not follow what the market wants and produce only what is better/best. Thinking like that will put you in the cheese line.
I for one never get worked up by the blinged out guns as whomever buys them are still gun owners and when it comes time to decide if we as a people keep firearms, the more owners the better.
Joseph,
I questioned SIG's 1911, but also bought one. I assumed at the time that the competition market and rumors of 1911-specific contracts influenced the decision, combined with a relatively low entry cost to the market, since nearly all the parts can be outsourced.
Just because I can't fault, say, S&W for sticking a Governor cup out the window when it was raining Judge soup doesn't mean I won't make fun of the basic concept of .410 revolvers as ghey.
I happen to *like* my P238, actually. It's a heckuva lot more accurate than the P3AT (okay, damning with faint praise there), and the same size as the S&W Bodyguard 380 (like, they both fit in the same holsters).
Haven't shot it enough to really comment on reliability other than to note it *hates* steel-cased ammo - but has been great on all kinds of brass-cased...
"Thinking like that will put you in the cheese line."
Funny!
Truth be told, I've never been entirely comfortable with the idea of a single-action pistol of a size that invites pocket carry, but that's me. Other people may rock out as they see fit.
A j-frame is a bit too large for pocket carry?
Wonder what they'd think of the SP-101? I've been pocket carrying mine regularly for over 20 years now.
Speaking of Facebook you might like my profile pic update this morning. A beauty shot of my 28-2 that I think turned out rather good for a photography noob like me.
I put it up there because it's my platform for some chrono testing I have planned for this evening. Running some loads I built before I had a chrono: 125gr JHP over 19.5 gr 296.
I bought a p238 because, as a kid, I once held a Colt Mustang (plus II) and fell in love (hey, I was a kid... DON'T JUDGE ME!). I think it was that incident that sparked my interest in firearms. The idea that someone had brought that gun (or something essentially similar) back was enough to get me to pick one up when I was looking for a pocket gun.
What I can't figure out is if mine is just a dud in the accuracy dept. or if my big mitts can't effectively hold such a tiny little gun. I'm not ruling out the fact that I am only a mediocre shot, even on a good day, but the accuracy difference between the little p238 and my other (larger) guns is more than I would think could be caused by just the size difference. I donno.
s
Scott J,
"A j-frame is a bit too large for pocket carry?
Wonder what they'd..."
I'd.
I'm quoting me.
And yes, while it will fit in a coat or vest pocket, a J-frame is too large for my trouser pockets. A S&W Bodyguard .380 barely fits.
My P238 has been fantastic. A bit on the small side for my huge mitts, but a great and easy shooter. Trying mine out led to a friend buying one for herself- the low recoil, easy to retract slide, and actual sights were what sold her on it.
For me, however, it has been eclipsed in every way by the P938- just enough extra size to fit in my hands (leading to better accuracy), more powerful, but still rides easily in a pocket. As for the single action pocket carry, that's just something people must decide for themselves.
Sig has been making some variants with questionable taste to fill out the market, but they're hardly alone in that. Even Colt got in on that action (ever see that Dragon 1911 they made?). I know it's fashionable to hate on what Sig has been doing, but so far I've bought six of the things fairly recently and not one has yet given me a touch of trouble- that's something I can't say for the companies who make up the rest of my collection. They're likely to continue getting my handgun dollars for that reason, even if people aren't sure why the world needed a rainbow finish P238.
Oh, and people who own SIGs have ugly kids, too. And their mom dresses them funny. :p
;)
Didn't realize that was your comments, Tam. Sorry :)
As for your trouser pockets I guess that's the price you pay for being a pretty girl rather than an oafish old fat man like me :)
All the Sig owners I personally know are childless to the best of my knowledge.
That includes my younger brother who is 42 and likely will forever be single. He seems to lack the sense of self sacrifice to make a relationship work :)
Hey, my kids are beautiful, but then I only own one SIG, and it's a small one. My 8 yo does have crooked teeth that will be wanting some expensive work eventually.... [wonders if suing SIG would help pay for it]
s
A S&W J frame is too large for one's pockets? We shall henceforth refer to Tam as "Tinypockets"!
"jackdaws with CCW permits must be a more lucrative target market than I would have thought. "
As someone who looks at this from the supply side, you have NO idea. Just 1911 grips alone, there are so many being manufactured in the world you'd think we'd all be waist deep in them in about a week, but they seem to keep going somewhere.
Speaking of, couple years back I gave some to Miss Brigid to pass on to you for destructive testing. Did you get/use them, and how long before they failed? Can you shoot me an email commenting?
Dunno, guess I'm just not trendy enough. I carry a full sized 1911, SA GI model, no bells or whistles. Now obviously I am a large fellow and can get away with a full sized auto in a shoulder holster, so there's no compulsion to search for something new.
Besides, I carried the 1911 back when it was an issue weapon, so it's comfortable and familiar to me. Seems to me that a feature of your carry piece is that it not require learning new habits and movements, but again, lots of people are always looking for something better than what they have.
Hey, my dad owns a Sig!
-Looks in mirror-
Yeah, I'll give you that one. :)
Steve Skubinna,
1) If you were really salty, you'd carry a Victory Model, and
2) The Facebook discussion opened with "Pop quiz, hotshots: Favorite gun to carry when you can't carry a real gun? S&W no-lock J-frame? Baby auto like the Ruger LCP or Walther PPS? Pointy stick?"
If you're a male who wears khakis or dress pants frequently, I've found pocket carrying a Ruger LCR in a $20 Desantis pocket holster to work exceeding well.
My criteria for working well:
1) I'm aware of it only as much as my wallet or phone in other pockets
2) In dry draw practice, I've never had the holster leave the pocket.
Is 327 federal going anywhere? Seemed like another fine step in the classic "make it higher pressure and longer" revolver cartridge ladder. And a 6 shot j-frame would be pretty slick.
I haven't heard much since the press releases...
Heh. I can mexican-carry a 7 1/2" Super Blackhawk when nessisary, so I laugh at a J-frame being "too big!" 'Course, I am "super-sized", an' it do drag down on da sweat pants.... :-* Pray for us in Mordor, Md. House votes on our 'beloved Leader's' AWB in the next two days, after that our only hope for sanity is a Referendum petition drive. How's rent out ya'll's way? Where did Ind. fall on that "freedom" list? Md. was 44th.....
JohninMD, I "reverse Mexican" carried (that is butt forward) my first three guns.
A 4" pre-10 M&P that I later traded for a 6" 686 which I later traded on a 6.5" 629 Classic.
By the time I got to the .44 I had taken to putting a square of leather between me and the gun to prevent chafing and keep some sweat off the gun (I learned stainless is capable of rusting).
That journey lasted roughly the first 18 months I was a gun owner then I finally admitted sometimes there is a need to be more discreet and bought the SP-101
Oh and of all the trades and sales I've done over the years those first two are the ones I wish I had back the most.
The problem with the PPKs is that .380 ACP in the US is loaded gently enough to not cause some very fragile old pistols to asplode.
So, yea, a PPK with lawyer .380 loads will jam.
This makes a Makarov rather attractive, since the only ammo available works reliably in one.
P238 is smaller and lighter than P232, and has a better trigger. It's also a locked breech design, so it's as easy to shoot than the larger, heavier and rust-prone 232.
Kristopher,
The problem with the PPK is that the postwar ones are made with indifferent QC by Manurhin and a host of US subcontractors. Even most of the "Made in Germany" ones were made in France and marked in Germany, thanks to loose German laws.
Not only am I ugly and dressed funny...
I've had both a P232 and P238. I'm very much happier with the 238 because it fits in my pocket better.
Got a J-frame too, it just never gets carried. That was my IWB gun for summer until I got the Vette, no dang room for anything on ones hip.
Also, everyone who willingly carries a rimfire pocket gun needs to take a pee test.
If you like the PPK design you can get a close copy in the Bersa Thunder with maybe a bit better QC.
Nothing directly related, just an update from Connecticut, as we wait for the Democrat controlled House, Senate, and Governor's Mansion to make all semi auto centerfire rifles unsaleable, nontransferable contraband and require serialization of remaining magazines in hand with no replacements allowed when they wear out and no new magazines purchasable.
I just made a drop off at a local gun store that caters to the law trade. The counters were packed with cops 3 to 5 layers deep, all trying to buy anything they could before tomorrow's cutoff.
I forgot that most of the police around here were former military and usually major gun bugs. It was obvious today.
Now, forgive me while I try to get one last batch of stripped lower receivers out to old customers and friends, via a great local gun shop that might be closing it's doors in the near future because of this madness.
Ruger is packing up and getting ready to move every last thing out to New Hampshire. Colt isn't saying where they're going (I just finished a chat with my old boss over there), but I'll bet it's a Right-To-Work state. Mark from Stag is visiting with the Governor of Texas in a few days.
It's cold out there on deck, and I think the band just started to strike up "Nearer My God To Thee".
I curse anybody who buys a longarm made in this State after tomorrow (Wednesday). May your powder turn to jello and your bullets to turds.
You know I avoid rotten language whenever possible. Forgive me, but this time I can't. Fuck Connecticut! I can't wait to leave!
I would like to own a PPK/Sig 232 but they all end up leaving two little bloody scars on my hand.
I did shoot my old Pre-Mr.Cohen Sig 239 at a bug match on Saturday. Every time some buddy starts on the new single stack small 9's I recall carrying that gun from 2000 until it got bumped for the G-19 a few years ago.
Gerry
I don't have any SIG's, large or small. Nothing against them, just never could justify the expense. I don't generally pocket carry, but when I do it is a simple Bersa Thunder in.380. Product improved version of the PPK, uglier, but so far works every time I pull the trigger. It will fit in the front pocket of my blue jeans (loose fit) and my Khaki's. I do wear executive cut though. It also fits in most of my winter jacket pockets quite well. I've been carrying it 13 years now and the one time I needed it, it slid out of that pocket just fine. Mostly it rides on the belt in a comfy belt slide holster.
@Scott J -
Must disagree re: Bersa Thunder - I bought one new a few years back and had nothing but trouble from day one. Getting through a full mag without having a stovepipe round was rare in the extreme...call me crazy but I don't reckon a new gun out of the box should need THAT much tuning. I ended up selling it for 50 less than I paid for it and I devoutly hope the guy who bought it (in full knowledge of problems) never has to depend on it in a social situation. I'm not the only one with similar Bersa horror stories.
Oleg,
"P238 is smaller and lighter than P232, and has a better trigger. It's also a locked breech design, so it's as easy to shoot than the larger, heavier and rust-prone 232."
Maybe it's as easy to shoot on Planet Oleg, but the grip's too small for me to get any benefit from the SA trigger and too narrow to get any recoil reduction from the locked breech, vis-a-vis the P232.
(And I carried that rust-prone P232 I got in trade from you through a Knoxville summer or two in the pocket of my shoot-me vest w/no rust problems.)
Still, given the general population of the two guns I've been exposed to, I've seen much fewer problems from the P230/232.
Angus McThag,
" I'm very much happier with the 238 because it fits in my pocket better."
Because you seem like the type who can take friendly banter, I'll use the obvious retort of "Well, so would a smooth rock." :D
Gerry,
"I would like to own a PPK/Sig 232 but they all end up leaving two little bloody scars on my hand."
Ouch! Original PPKs give me bloody racing stripes if I'm not careful, but the P230/232 and newer S&W-made PPKs don't, thanks to the extended tangs.
I love SIGs...yep, carry the 230 sometimes, one of the 226s on occassion, a 229 for work most every day, and a personal 229 for off days. Round it out with an M400 which I got to become a beater so I can safe-queen the 6920.
Had quite a few 220s and probably will have another some day, a couple of 225s, might like to have one of their 1911s, have an itch for a 250, and if funds allow a 556 Classic will join the M400.
On the other hand, never had a use for a 238, 938, nor what I think is the most useless excuse for a firearm ever, a 290. So to me, not all things SIG are sacred. But most of what they have works fine for me. Unfortunately for the 230, in some clothes an LCP works better and in others it's a 229 or 226. That 230 gets shot plenty but not carried very often.
And my son is the most handsome of the bunch, along with his grandfather and most of my cousins. Dad never owned a SIG, but maybe the milkman did. If so, he was an ugly cuss too, and the SIG would have to be a first-run 210.
Lovely. So we have Manurhin pistols masquerading as PPKs as well?
That still doesn't invalidate my statement. An actual PPK needs a properly loaded full power cartridge.
pdb: Then I guess you can put me on the pee test list.
I carry a NAA revolver in my pocket as a backup, with the hammer down on the between-rounds notch.
I own two Bersa 380's, one thunder and one thunder plus (same gun but wider grip with a double stack magazine) and I have had absolutely no problems out of either one as long as I am using Bersa factory magazines. When I bought the thunder I picked up a spare mag from another company and that one jams on the 5th shot every time. Other than that it runs flawlessly. Haven't tried any other after market mags for it and I won't anytime soon.
Having a large variety of weapons available makes it easier to decide which one you do NOT want.
I carried a smooth rock for a while.
The trigger was atrocious and absolutely nobody makes night sights for them.
"The trigger was atrocious..."
I know, right? Almost as heavy as the one on a P-64!
I was recently diagnosed with carpal tunnel in both hands. After some deliberation, I was initially going to give up my beloved revolvers, and switch to a flat sided case chucker in 9mm. One of those fancy new Bobergs was high on my list.
I posted a couple of wheelies for sale, to finance this new decision. And I kept getting nagging feelings. When it finally came time to part, with a well loved J-Frame...I had to apologize to the potential buyer and withdraw. I knew the gun would go to a good home, but I wasn't ready to part.
Arne Boberg seems like a real nice guy and he makes a fancy pocket rocket and I like it.
But make mine a J-frame.
So, instead of shooting the .38 J-Frame and feeling pain, I'm going to pick up a .22LR LCR and shoot it more, and the .38 less. In the end I get another revolver, an LCR, and a .22, all in one.
I have a sickness I think. You know what looks fun? A 5" Rhino, I need one of those next...
-Rob
Not a J-Frame, but I have a Taurus 731UL in .32 H&R...and on reliabilty and (gulp) accuracy, I would choose it over my P-3AT. With the loads I bought online from the Hunting Shack, it hits harder than my .380 with Hydra-Shoks.
It just doesn't fit as nicely into any of my pockets the way the P-3AT does, so it spends most of it's time at home.
Speaking of my SP-101 I had big fun yesterday evening running full power 125gr boomers out of it.
I tried to se if I could catch some of the muzzle flash with my cellphone camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxoY_Z0UmbU
Tam, if I were really salty I'd be carrying my service piece, and as a backup the Makarov I took off that NVA Colonel. And everyone would have heard the story.
Several dozen times.
But sadly, I'm not that salty. I just may be... the 735,982nd most tactical man in the world.
Angus you should try a rough surfaced rock, better grip stippling and when it strikes a target you get more expansion for a wider wound channel. The trigger still sucks though. I prefer .45 inch ones versus those whimpy .38 inch ones.
Btw, I will now be calling Tam "tiny pockets" in my head.
I carry the P232. (Carrying it today, as a matter of fact.) It's well worth the size, and the finest blowback .380 out there, with the possible exception of the Sphinx (a Swiss CZ-82.) But I have to admit, I own not one but two P238s. One two-tone, and one Gambler. They're just so damn cute, even if I only ever bust them out on the range. And the short recoil action does actually make them reasonably pleasant in that context.
I have a P-230. My buddy liked it so much he tried to buy it frm me. When that failed he bought a new P-232. Next to each other I find it hard to tell the difference. His has night sights,, mine doesn't. Both are stainless. Can anyone tell me whhat the difference is between a P-230 and a P-232???
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