Wednesday, September 09, 2009

Weird hunting regs...

Back when I lived in Georgia, before they "regularized" deer hunting regulations with surrounding states, they briefly had a strange rule for handgun hunting: To be legal, the handgun had to develop 500 ft/lbs of energy at a hundred yards. This pretty much eliminated all but the most powerful .357 magnum handloads, since no factory load in the caliber at the time had that kind of wheaties. It was also silly because the only way it could realistically be enforced would be to have game wardens carrying chronographs in the woods...

Needless to say, that particular regulation didn't last very long.

Within the last ten years, Georgia, Tennessee, and Alabama have adjusted their statutes for allowable hunting firearms until they were all broadly similar, one notable difference being that GA and AL let you hunt Bambi with a .22" or larger centerfire rifle while TN stuck to .24" or larger.

Not so in my new home state of Indiana. Oh, no. No shooting real rifles at deer up here. Hoosier hunters have to use muzzle loaders or shotguns with slugs or "pistol-caliber" carbines...

This all confused me when I got up here. Despite having Illinois on one side and Ohio on the other, Indiana seemed pretty laid-back about guns. Maybe, like any dumb law in Indiana, it had something to do with John Dillinger? But no, I saw the Johnny Depp movie and nowhere in it did he shoot a deer with a centerfire rifle. It turned out that the regulation sprang from a different reason entirely:

Whitetail were actually hunted to extinction in Indiana in the early 20th Century and had to be re-introduced. When they let people hunt them again, they made them do it with one hand tied behind their back to give the deer a chance. Well, as the saying goes, give a deer a chance and he'll take your bumper. Now the deer have spread like hoofed rats and do $40,000,000+ damage to windshields and corn crops in this state EVERY YEAR and we still have to hunt them with one hand tied behind our backs.

No scoped .30-'06s, no old Winchester "thutty-thutties", not so much as a single shot Thompson/Center rifle if it's chambered in an honest-to-O'Connor bottlenecked rifle cartridge suitable for Bambi zapping.

“Pistol caliber” rifles are okay, provided they meet the following criteria:
a) fire a bullet of .357 diameter or larger;
b) have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
c) have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.

You know where this leads? This leads to crazed young men taking measurements of exotic AR-15 cartridges and thinking strange thoughts, that's where it leads.

64 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just get a predation permit and then you can use a centerfire rifle if the biologist so approves.

Shootin' Buddy

Tam said...

All that forelock-tugging makes me break out in hives.

Stupid biologist isn't the boss of me!

Anonymous said...

"Stupid biologist isn't the boss of me!"

No, he's the boss the deer. Forelock tugging? All your deer do not belong to you. You have to pull the wagon, even with the deer in it.

If you want to use a centerfire rifle on game, shoot a squirrel or a coyote. A .270 launched at a 45 degree angle at a squirrel turns into magic pixie while a .270 launched at a deer will kill all women and minorities within a 50 radius.

Shootin' Buddy

Anonymous said...

Doh, that should be "magic pixie dust" and "50 mile radius".

Kids, don't type and check your voice mail.

Shootin' Buddy

reflectoscope said...

Let me get this straight: Indiana managed to get rid of the f**ckers and then brought them back?

Jim

Tam said...

"Let me get this straight: Indiana managed to get rid of the f**ckers and then brought them back?"

They're nice people up here, ut-bay ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, if you know what I mean. ;)

Frank W. James said...

Tam: reread the rules I think your Thompson Contender Encore barrel in .243 is legal, but not in a rifle. Logical? Of course not, but remember you're dealing with Hoosier gov't workers.

Also, if you want to murder Bambi or any member of his family, especially Mom, drop me an email and I will give you directions 90 miles north to a ditchbank that is a superhighway for these things on one of my farms.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Caleb said...

What, you're telling me that hunting deer with an AR dreamed up by an ex-SF guy for hadjiwhacking wouldn't be awesome?

Billy Beck said...

"All your deer do not belong to you."

They do over here in Daisy Hollow (in the heart of the Vampire State), and have since 1974. Been whackin' 'em with the Winchester 94, and it's nobody's fuckin' business.

You bet.

Tam said...

"All your deer do not belong to you."

Well, then who do they belong to?

How about squirrels? Do they belong to the same entity, or to someone else?

karrde said...

Dang.

Up here in the Great Lakes State, things are simpler.

Deer weren't hunted to extinction, but there was a time when no white-tails were to be found in the southern 25% of the state. Nowadays, people see deer munching on gardens and shrubbery in the Detroit Metro area.

The primary restriction on hunting arms is shotguns-only south of a certain line, which roughly corresponds to population density. However, handgun-hunting is quite likely illegal...I can't remember. The next big restriction is a limitation of 5 rounds (in chamber and magazine) in the weapon.

But I can go Up North, and take my Mosin-Nagant M44, and hunt deer with it if I feel like it. (I'll likely take a Remington 700, because that has a scope and the Mosin doesn't...)

jimbob86 said...

.....and here I thought Nebraska's prohibition of loaded firearms on snowmobiles was a weird hunting law.......

WV:mylard As in- "Mylard, might I hunt your deer with this? No? With what may I hunt them, pray tell?"

Tam said...

Okay, so if a deer on the King's Land is the King's deer, and a deer in a State Park is "the State's" deer, I'm confused: Whose is the deer in my back yard?

MCSA said...

ILLinois regulations are about the same - up here in Monster Buck country (Northern Illinois - lot of oak, corn, and hills), we're overgrown with 'em.

I just posted on Caleb's blog the list of regulations...

I've got a 686 racegun - maybe I can just load up some hot 158 mags and go zap away...


MCSA56.ORG

Jay G said...

Odd MA hunting reg: You can hunt with a crossbow - *if* you have a doctor's note.

(i.e. if you don't have the hand strength to draw a bow...)

Anonymous said...

"Odd MA hunting reg: You can hunt with a crossbow - *if* you have a doctor's note."

Not so odd. Indiana had a similar statute. Never understood how a crossbox is "cheating" but a rifle is not.

"Okay, so if a deer on the King's Land is the King's deer, and a deer in a State Park is "the State's" deer, I'm confused: Whose is the deer in my back yard?"

The State's. Unlike Old Europe, game animals (wild critters, not tame critters) belong to the state, not the landowner.

One cannot have something for nothing.

"Been whackin' 'em with the Winchester 94, and it's nobody's fuckin' business."

No, that would be the state's business in enforcing its game laws.

Shootin' Buddy

Tam said...

"The State's. Unlike Old Europe, game animals (wild critters, not tame critters) belong to the state, not the landowner."

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. I've got wookie fur in my ears on this one. :p

Wolfwood said...

The deer in your backyard are ferae naturae and are only yours if you've somehow brought them under your dominion and control (such as by shooting them, erecting fences, or cornering them in a cave). You can't, for instance, sell the deer on your unenclosed land to someone else, but you could sell the right to hunt them.

IANAL(y). TINLA.

Wolfwood said...

And by my above comment, I mean to say that the deer are unowned. Even the state doesn't "own" them, although it has the authority to do many things that effectively foreclose your right to do things to them, such as hunt them with a .30-06. It's just part of the social contract and the freedoms we thereby delegate to the government.

Again, IANAL(y), TINLA.

og said...

"No, that would be the state's business in enforcing its game laws."

AND they can come on private property to enforce the laws, with precious little excuse.

The core of the indiana rifle laws, I'm told by my warden friend, is the terrain.

In many places in Indiana it is possible, with a theodolite and a pole and a friend, to observe, firsthand, the curvature of the earth. I've done it myself. There are miles of fields. And loads of flatness. an '06 can travel an adequate distance (around three miles, IIRC)that you violate rule four just because you cannot(usually) be sure of what's three miles away. Hence stand hunting is encouraged.

The switch to pistol caliber rifles was a good one, and I'm hoping to get out this year and do some damage with my marlin 44 mag.

I think the 405 SOCOM would be not only an awesome deer round, and the AR platform awesome FOR it, but I cannot wait until they offer one in Mossy oak.

craig said...

I lived in Ohio for ten years and their shotgun-only rule surprised this Pennsylvania boy. I don't know if the original rationale was similar to Indiana's or not.

I do know that landowners (farmers) were a major barrier to repealing it. They may have a point. Flat land, few trees, inexperienced shooters could make stray bullets a problem.

James E. Griffin said...

In the Northern Virginia People's Republics - so named by a long-time Democrat speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates - of Arlington County and Alexandria City, they believe in culling the deer herd via automobile.

I advise friends driving through to understand Bambi's living habits, and how they react in an emergency - like a deer in the headlights? Then I advise folks to drive big, gas guzzling vehicles at the same time. Gotta keep up the numbers of the good People of the Gun.

So currently, I have great respect for the bravery and civic virtues of odocoileus virginianus. They generously give their lives to cull the gun fearing wussies, and anti hunting whack-jobs from our population. Ever seen a micro car hit by one?

dneylon said...

Keep in mind that Indiana's the place the restricted beer distributors in order to increase competition.

Anonymous said...

"The core of the indiana rifle laws, I'm told by my warden friend, is the terrain."

Rumor mill nonsense.

Next time you hear this government/gun shop nonsense ask them why does the centerfire prohibition apply to deer but not coyotes? Or, not to squirrels high in trees? Do oak tree radiate force fields to provide backstops? Much like cars at public ranges? "Just unload in the parking lot."

IDNR Magic Bullet Theory: Centerfire bullets turn into pixie dust when launched at squirrels and coyotes, but turn into Angels of Death when launched at deer.

Sorry, og, but this governmental smoke screen (to hide their ignorance) gets me stoked.

I thought Remington had a Mossy Oak AR???

Shootin' Buddy

Caleb said...

Remy does have the mossy oak AR, but not in .458 SOCOM. You'd have to buy the mossy Remy lower, then hook the blactical colored .458 upper on it.

Tam said...

Og,

"The core of the indiana rifle laws, I'm told by my warden friend, is the terrain. "

That's a common belief now, but I was surprised when I researched the backstory.

og said...

"Sorry, og, but this governmental smoke screen (to hide their ignorance) gets me stoked."

Not rumor mill. Observe # of people hunting bambi vs # of people hiunting yotes. (certainly in the northern part of the state) And fully 90% of the people hunting bambi are first water fucktards.(again, in my area of the state. Had a hunter last year look at me THROUGH HIS RIFLESCOPE) People hunting yotes are a small minority of hunters in IN, they are usually doingso for varmint control purposes, doing so from a stand, and have a clue. And while it's perfectly legal to take squirrel with a 17 remington, most people use 22's. And a 17 caliber or 22 caliber or 45 caliber round would be dangerous but probably not lethal, falling from being shot in the air. (see Mythbusters)

Now, there are a lot of 45 caliber frontstuffers with some damned serious ballistics, and frankly, the "no HP rifle" rule is pretty damned dumb. But if you come hunting with me for one day, you will decide the best thing for Indiana hunters would be if they couldn't shoot anything with more than a 50 yard effective range. Mileage varies the further south you get of I-80, but not too damned much.

og said...

Whatever the backstory is, I go to the DNR open meetings, and that is the concern now. As I said, I think it's a stupid concern based on the ballistics of modern frontstuffers, but that's what I hear going to the meetings.

hey, they're INDIANA gummint officials. Whattya you spect?

Anonymous said...

The state of Pennsylvania did a study on shotgun slugs vs. centerfire rifles and found the terrain rationale to be complete spinach.

It is complete spinach in Pennsylvania; it complete spinach in Indiana as projectiles do not concern themselves with state lines.

If you add up all the bullets launched at crows, groundhogs, possums, squirrel, fox, coyotes, inter alia, it would dwarf the number launched at deer.

IDNR is the under the influence of the trophy hunters who are against any further modification of the hunting regs. IDNR's rationale is faulty and beyond moronic.

Shootin' Buddy

Tam said...

Jeez, don't hold back; tell us how you really feel. ;)

Anonymous said...

Here's the link for an article concerning the Pennsylvania study:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_53/ai_n20512665/

Shootin' Buddy

Anonymous said...

My favorite line from the report:

"They found in the shotgun-only states, this appears to be an issue driven by emotion and politics rather than sound scientific data."

Right on target!

Shootin' Buddy

Bram said...

Here in NJ, the automobile is also our main defense against the deer menance.

I remember seeing photos somewhere of deer taken with a .40 carbine (forgot if it was Kel-tec or Hi-point). I didn't understand why at the time - now I do.

Frank W. James said...

Shootin' Buddy: I concur with all you've posted, but it's the insurance industry AND farmers who combined together with lobbying efforts in the Indiana legislature that forced the INDNR to open up the rules last year to pistol caliber carbines OVER the objections of their own officers.

The bottom line was, if they didn't, the legislature was going to declare Bambi and all his brothers and sisters as vermin and remove, by legislative fiat, all seasonal restrictions and bag limits. THAT GOT THEIR ATTENTION!!!

The system is still screwed up however because I have to prove crop damage too early in the growing season. It should be NOW just prior to harvest, but they have cooked the books so to speak by requiring proof be demonstrated in July and August and NO later. All it takes is $500 worth of crop damage, but you have to do it so early in the season it's almost impossible to prove.

In '03 however I did get 5 dep permits for ONE 77 acre field and the month of Feb. ONLY. On the last day I caught 'em and shot a doe at 292 yards (I lasered her prior to the shot) with my 6.5-284 and a 140 gr AMAX. She was dead before she hit the ground. But since then the FIX has been IN and I haven't been able to beat the system.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

og said...

"if you add up all the bullets launched at crows, groundhogs, possums, squirrel, fox, coyotes, inter alia, it would dwarf the number launched at deer."

True. Still, if I have a choice between taking a stray 22 coming from almost overhead, or a couple of #6 pellets coming directly at me, (have done,no fun) or a 30-06 round fired by Fuzzy because he was "pretty sure he saw a deer on that ridge", I'll pick the pellets or the 22 anytime. IDNR may be being influenced by the gravitational pull of the moon, for all I care. if I had a dollar for every bonehead in the field hunting who had no clue whatsoever, I could buy a piece of private property to hunt on. The Pennsy balistics study is telling, but getting back to THIS state:
1: Gummint officials. Logic not available
2: legitimate safety concerns, not because of the choice of weapons but because of the choice of hunters. And yes, I understand it makes no sense. See #1
3: Trophy hunters? indiana? Really? All I ever see is Gomer, standing up and pissing off his own deer stand.

If all of indiana was peopled by careful, good hunters, I'd say the restrictions were just stupid. Hunt Kingsbury, Slough, J-P and tell me you want to open the restrictions.

mr James: I'd be happy to come thin, pay for my own licenses, if you would be so inclined. Loves me some deer.

Kristopher said...

Bah.

Go to Texas style regs. Game belongs to the landowner. Period. The landowner decides what kind of hunting is apropo.

This ain't wookie fur ... Texas has great hunting. You just have to pay for your fun. No free lunch for sportsmen.

If Indiana had had this in the first place, deer would only have gone extinct on public land.

Rob K said...

I think Og's point, and certainly the one I would make, is that the safety concern is not about the guns or cartridges themselves, but WHO shoots WHAT.

I'm sure the belief is that Bubba Dontpractice doesn't hunt coyotes, and he won't hunt squirrel with a high-power rifle. Bubba Dontpractice will, on the other hand, hunt deer with a .30-30 or .308 or .223 if you let him. And he might empty the mag of his SKS across an open field at a fleeing herd, never mind the 3 or 4 houses in that direction.

Whether this concern is valid or not is a different issue.

Something else to think about, how easy is it to find a safe place to practice with a high-power rifle in Indiana?

Rob K said...

And Og beat me to it...

BTW Frank, I too will volunteer to come by and try knocking off some of those deer for you.

og said...

Thank you, Rob, for being coherent where I was not.

Caleb said...

Well hell, you want to shoot some deer? Father-in-law has 500 some odd acres that are just swimming in the damn things, that was the genesis of the whole ".458 SOCOM" discussion.

Billy Beck said...

"No, that would be the state's business in enforcing its game laws."

{snicker} Well, I find that whole idea just too precious for words. Really. That's adorable.

og said...

Caleb, if you get a .458 socom it would be a hoot just to see it shoot!

I bet they'd be cool as hell in mossy oak.

Anonymous said...

Minnesota's kinda weird like that, too. The north woods areas are open to any legal firearm. The agricultural parts are shotgun or handgun only.

If I so desire, I can shoot deer (in the southern portion of the state) with a Thompson Center 7mm Magnum "handgun" but not a .223 rifle. I guess the bullets know when they're launched from a 14-inch barrel that they're not lethal to humans. If I have a 16-inch (or longer) barrel, I have to be in a rifle zone.

Here, too, varmints can be taken with a .300 Weatherby magnum in a shotgun-only deer zone. Varmint bullets don't kill people, either.

Jon

Nathan said...

Something else to think about, how easy is it to find a safe place to practice with a high-power rifle in Indiana?

I'd second that, Rob. I've got Dad's Mauser 98k sitting here just collecting dust because there's nowhere to go to shoot it. The days when I could go plink into the quarry back of my Uncle Jack's house east of Peru are forty years dead-n-gone.

(Of course, I probably won't be plinking anything with the Mauser till I get this rotator cuff taken care of. Ouch. It hurts just thinking about it.)

Anonymous said...

"True. Still, if I have a choice between taking a stray 22 coming from almost overhead, or a couple of #6 pellets coming directly at me,"

You can shoot all those varmits and game animals with a .243 rifle; one is not limited to shot or .22s. You can shoot a deer with a .243 pistol, but you cannot shoot a deer with a .243 rifle.

The Pennsylvania study is useful as it proves that concerns over centerfire rifle use being "unsafe" is unscientific spinach. The study of projectile motion is the same in every state.

1. Government officials are lying when they give a terrain justification. We cannot allow IDNR to continue their campaign of lies.

2. There are no legitimate safety concerns with centerfire rifles as IDNR regs (allow for crow or coyote and for predation on deer) and the PA study prove. Shotguns with slugs are more dangerous than centerfire rifles. If centerfire rifle use is truly unsafe (and it is not), why is it allowed for a multitude of animals which include deer predation? A .270 launched at a coyote is the same .270 launced at a deer. When is one "safe" and the other "dangerous".

3. If you want to weed out the Gomers, I concur. Simply raise the fee for centerfire rifle users, a course in basic hygiene (clothing, dental, appearance) and require a shooting test with waiver for a gun school (oh, and upper tier hunters do not have to wear clown orange).

"If all of indiana was peopled by careful, good hunters." Easy to fix, just change the hunting qualifications, or use a two tier system as I describe.

I do not understand the fear of one's fellow hunters. Cannot Cledus or Jasper do stupid things with shotguns (which are more dangerous with slugs than centerfire rifles) or even muzzleloaders?

I agree that the gun handling skills of those around me are less than optimal (e.g. any public range, or any police department) but why not allow those qualified to hunt with centerfire rifles?

"Something else to think about, how easy is it to find a safe place to practice with a high-power rifle in Indiana?"

Depends on where one lives, but it is very easy. Where I live there are several ranges within a 15 minute drive.

Under the SB tier system, those that want to use centerfire rifles on deer will get to the range and will put forth the effort.

Shootin' Buddy

fast richard said...

Once upon a time game laws were for hunters from the big city. Locals in the northwoods figured they had a right to eat what was on their property. Even the early game wardens appreciated being able to drop by for a good fresh venison dinner any time of the year.

The state now enforces those game laws against everyone, but don't expect me to turn anyone in for shooting food on their own land. The state is overstepping its authority when game laws are applied to the owners on private land.

og said...

"Government officials are lying when they give a terrain justification. We cannot allow IDNR to continue their campaign of lies.
"

No. Terrain is justification. period. But it's the same justification for muzzleloaders as it is for AK47's as it is for 243 win as it is for shotgun slugs. maybe I'm not being clear, and if I'm not, I'm sorry. I'm not saying that one thing is more dangerous than another. The DNR certainly believes it is, but lots of people voted for Obama too.

I'm tickled that the IDNR is so stupid that it thinks my 44 magnum will not travel as far as a 30-06 or cause less damage, or whatever. it allows me a fine cartridge to go hunt deer with. I'd love to be able to use a 30-30. but I can use a 44 mag, or a 45 long colt, or a variety of fine cartridges. And the deer will be as dead. I'm not into sniper shots, I want to be close enough to see the animal die, I think 50 yards is a fine distance to shoot a whitetail.

The original point still stands, and is undeniably true. A projectile will travel long enough distances in flat terrain that your ability to confirm it's final resting place is seriously compromised. Damned near any round. Pistol, rifle, shotgun slug, whatever. It is brutally irresponsible to fire any firearm at 0 degrees elevation in a flat countryside. Guess how many irresponsible people I meet? A lot.


The IDNR does a middling job. They're one of the lower paid least staffed DNR's of all 50 states. And most of the individuals are decent folks who work hard and care about the job. They have difficulty enough enforcing the current system, let alone a two-or-multi tiered one. So it means competent people have to get their perogatives dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, which totally sucks, I completely agree. But the options are getting better and better, three years ago it was muzzleloader or slug or handgun, ten years ago less, twenty years ago almost nothing.

Where I live my closest range is 45 miles. Then 50 miles, then 58 miles. I shoot as much as I can at those, but even they only have 100 yards. I have to drive close to 70 miles for a 200 yard range. And I always make the effort. is it fair? No. But it's less restrictive now than it's ever been. And there's not a damned thing wrong with a 357 mag, or a 44 mag, or a 458 Socom as a bambi killer.

" I do not understand the fear of one's fellow hunters. Cannot Cledus or Jasper do stupid things with shotguns (which are more dangerous with slugs than centerfire rifles) or even muzzleloaders?"

You have clearly not hunted the places I hunt. Cletus and jasper not only CAN do stupid things with shotguns AND rifles AND bows AND crossbows AND muzzleloaders. Shit. Cletus can't DRIVE, and a car is far more dangerous than an '06

I get the impression you think I'm on board with any of these restrictions. I'm not. But I understand why they're there- and it has had the unintended consequence of keeping every idiot in NW indiana from wandering out to a Walmart, buying a 243, and breaking all four rules when I'm in the field trying to kill Bambi.

Know what I'd like to see? A multi-tiered reserve system. Places you can only hunt if you can prove your skills. That would be a damned sight easier to police, and make for some impressive hunting, too.

T.Stahl said...

My first impression was, 'Those laws are so silly, they look almost German.'

But actually the Germans requirements regarding calibers are quite sensible:
- For roedeer 1000J/738lbsft @ 100m/109yds
- Deer and boars 2000J/1475lbsft @ 100m/109yds and a minimum caliber of 6.5mm/.264"
Hunting with handguns is a big no-no.

Dave D. said...

Hey Tam, I think they've changed the TN law since you last looked. I know it was ok last year to hunt deer with a .223

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/huntweapons.html

Frank W. James said...

og and Rob K: Email me at Jamesfam@ffni.com.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Mikael said...

Similar here in sweden T.Stahl, I think the minimum calibre is a 6.5x55(6.5 Swede) rifle. Handguns is a nono(then again, our handgun laws are very strict, and you can only get a licence if you do competition shooting, and only for that and practice).

Our hunting licences also include a hunting course, which includes identification, tracking, etc, as well as shooting tests on moving targets.

If I were to take up hunting, I have the benefit of what I believe is an up to 500 meter shooting range nearby(you can pick closer ranges too, every 100 meters marked out), hardly anyone uses it, it belonged to the military before the local military training ground got closed down. I used it a number of times in my teens(before the military here got closed down, it was open to the public anytime the military didn't use it), at one time I was shooting a 6.5 swede at 200 meters, and some officers with binoculars looked on from a nearby hill(I think there was an excercise on the other side).

FatWhiteMan said...

Not even pistol caliber carbines in Ohio. We have only muzzleloader, slugged shotgun or handgun. I always wondered why they would allow handguns but not carbines in pistol calibers.

Rob K said...

"Something else to think about, how easy is it to find a safe place to practice with a high-power rifle in Indiana?"

Depends on where one lives, but it is very easy. Where I live there are several ranges within a 15 minute drive.


Where? I lived in Lafayette from `97 to `04 and I never knew of a place that a casual shooter (e.g. most deer hunters) could go in Tippecanoe county for a trivial fee (what most deer hunters are willing to pay) that was easy to find, especially to shoot high-power rifles. I live in east Carroll county now and I don't know of any ranges anywhere near me.

The guys who hunt at Jasper-Pulaski, Willow Slough, and Mississinewa mostly aren't willing to ante-up to join Wildcat Creek, nor drive across 2 counties to go shoot.

And like Og, I'm not really on board with the restrictions. That doesn't mean I can't understand some of the thinking driving them. I'd love to be able to legally use my .308 to hunt deer.

Abby said...

We've been shotgun-only in southern Michigan as long as I've been around. You get used to it - the brush density is such around here that the longer shot isn't really that important.

I've put venison in the freezer with old shotguns that would make the .300 WinMag-on-whitetails crowd blanch - they work.

And we get enough yahoos in the woods November 15 that I'm a little comforted by them NOT firing up every twitching leaf with centerfire rifles... :)

Anonymous said...

Og, things may be better for the IDNR's justification of not permitting centerfire rifle is deeply flawed and anti-science. This is what concerns me, allowing our government to get away with such lies.

"I never knew of a place that a casual shooter (e.g. most deer hunters) could go in Tippecanoe county for a trivial fee (what most deer hunters are willing to pay) that was easy to find, especially to shoot high-power rifles."

There are many but there are two that I frequent--Wildcat Valley and Linden.

In Carroll County there are several nearby. Again it is all about willingness to make an effort.

Establish a tier system and those that will make an effort will do so. Those that think pistol carbines or shotguns are "good enough" will not do so.

Shootin' Buddy

theirritablearchitect said...

"...For roedeer 1000J/738lbsft @ 100m/109yds..."

As a Furriner who's been hunting in your country a few times, I feel that benchmark is ridiculously high.

Both of my dogs are way bigger than a roe deer. Talk about a rat on hoof. 1000 Joules at the muzzle would still be plenty of oats to get the job done, in my opinion.

og said...

Shootin buddy: I was at a public hearing where they discussed the rule change to pistol caliber cartridges. During this hearing the "distance" issue came up.

I could have piped up and said "Here's the ballistic data that shows a pistol or muzzleloader bullet or shotgun slug travels just as far and is as dangerous if not more so". Should I have done that, in a public meeting? Taking the chance that some bedwetting official would say "That's it, no hunting bambi except with rocks and sticks".

No. I did not. I know the facts. And they don't understand them. But we went from NO centerfire rifles, to SOME centerfire rifles. And maybe if we can keep some of the assholes out of the woods, we'll be able to move up to MOST centerfire rifles. And it cost absolutely nothing. Who is going to pay for the "tier" system? Is it good to have a different set of rules for different people? What deer have you ever seen that absolutely required the intervention of a 300 wsm, that wouldn't be equally dead with a 357 mag?

I'm honestly not trying to be contentius. I agree with you that this is all dumb as a bag of hammers. But it's progress. it's progress that didn't cost a single tax dollar and didn't make any warden work any harder. And patience will bring more progress. Standing up in a meeting and yelling at a state official that he's a dumbass (though it be demonstrably true) will not so much bring progress. Asking for a difficult to enforce and expensive to licence "tier" system, I'm not so comfortable with. it would invariably end up being an elitist group of politically connected fucktards like many of these types of "tier" systems become.

"Og, things may be better for the IDNR's justification of not permitting centerfire rifle is deeply flawed and anti-science."

I must need a lot more coffee. I don't understand that sentence. Could you clarify it for me?

Anonymous said...

Og, no, I'm not putting any duty on you or anyone. Yes, I agree that slices at a time is best.

We can already use .300 Magnums for predation deer, for coyotes, for crows and for squirrels high in a tree. Disallowing its use for deer has no rational basis.

"Is it good to have a different set of rules for different people?"

Absolutely! We get to keep the slobs out of the woods (centerfire rifles and no clown orange) and we set a high standard for people to achieve, rather than playing to the lowest common denominator for Cledus and Jasper.

Not difficult to enforce, you submit your gun school class creds or shoot a qualification and written test for your upper tier deer license. You present your upper tier license when Officer Bambi wants to see it or upon checking in your deer.

""Og, things may be better for the IDNR's justification of not permitting centerfire rifle is deeply flawed and anti-science.""

That's me, checking voice mail and typing. Kids, just say no.

Og, things may be better, but IDNR's justification of prohibiting centerfire riles is anti-scientific. We cannot let emotion and ignorance be the basis for public policy (in any endeavour).

Shootin' Buddy

og said...

"We cannot let emotion and ignorance be the basis for public policy (in any endeavour)."

Well, damn. You have a big row to hoe, ma brother. And if i's you, I'd start with something a bit different than trying to get this regulation changed, it's simply not that onerous. Point your sights at the gun laws in Chicago, which will soon (look it up) be able to lock you up for having firearms in the city AT ALL, including peaceable journeys with locked and secured arms, first offense mandatory five days in the slammer.

You can use the 300 now because they figure (and correctly so) that people hunting predators are not doing so for sport, but for varmint control, and need all the help they can get. And you can use a 500 nitro express on Squirrels, because so far, nobody is doing it. The moment some idiot DOES do it, or uses a 223, or anything other than a 22lr, there will be a new regulation. I'd love to meet someone who thinks it's prudent, necesary, or even fun to shoot a squirrel with a 300; I think morons are fun to observe. usually behind glass, like at a zoo.

Two tier system: "you don't qualify because you need to get form X3905 filled in by your local chief of police prior to your application being reviewed by the board" Can't happen? Remember what you used to have to do to get concealed carry in Indiana? Any system that can be used to exclude can eventually be used to exclude YOU. Nah, I'm agin it. I ain't saying it's a bad idea, just that (like Patriot Act) it will be used for bad things in the wrong hands. leave it the way it is, and let's (as sportsmen) work harder to police our own.

Tam said...

I feel that it's extremely important to point out that Cletus spells his name with a "T" and not a "D".

Caleb said...

Reasons for a decent rifle: the cornfield shot. If I see a buck on the other side of four acres worth of land (that's anywhere from 200-400 yards depending on how you define "acre") I want to be able to drill him with a rifle of sufficient caliber. I've been out on the family farm during deer season and have seen big deer at those ranges, which I couldn't reach out and touch with a slug gun or a .357 magnum.

og said...

if I were in a hilly area, pretty damned sure I was alone, and could see a deer and nothing else against a solid backstop, I would not be afraid to use a high powered rifle to take a deer. Pretty much how I took the Kudu in Zambia.

In Indiana I don't think I've taken a shot past 50 yards, and I wouldn't. "be sure of your target and what's behind it". From a stand, anything past 100 yards is so close to zero elevation that a miss will travel a long way. At 50 yards from a 20' or even 15' stand,the angle of the shot is steep enough that the worst that will happen is a slug in an indiana cornfield. No, I don't make plans to miss- and I don't. But should the shot be through and through, or the deer moves at the last moment, I want all eventualities covered. That's just me. I can easily shoot "moment of deer" out to 100 yards with the iron on the Marlin, but at 100 yards, at dusk, even with a good scope, I can't tell if a deer has antlers. Which means it's illegal just to take the shot. If your eyes are better than that, God bless you. Mine ain't. A good portion of the skill in deer hunting is getting to where you're close enough to a deer to get a good shot at one; I never take a shot unless I know it will for certain stop the animal right there period. I'm confifdent in my ability to do that at 50 yards. I easily have the ability to take a 375 yard shot, and drop an 1100 lb animal, I have the pictures to prove it.

Tam: I'm sorry, I know Cletus is with a T, but I'm a horrible typist, sorry if I got that wrong. And I'll claim pre-coffee too. Any excuse in a storm

Tam said...

South Georgia is as flat as anywhere in Indiana has ever thought about being, and that's the home of "beanfield rifles". South Georgia bucks get taken across soybean fields with heavy-barreled magnums and .22-250s from free-standing tower blinds. A downward-angled shot is going into the dirt if it misses at 300 yards just the same as it would at 50, if you think about it.

og said...

"South Georgia is as flat as anywhere in Indiana has ever thought about being," Sure. And Brown County indiana is hilly and lovely. All of indiana doesn't suck. I've often thought that hunting soutwestern indiana would be awesome.

"if you think about it."

Actually, I think about it a lot.