Fabricating...

So, once upon a time, I bought a Frommer Stop. This is an intriguing little historical footnote of a pistol whose main purpose in existing is to serve as the answer to a Trivial Pursuit: Firearms Edition question:

"The two major pistols to operate on the long recoil operating principle are the Webley Mars and the ____________."

Thing is, when I finally got around to test-firing it, it didn't extract the spent shell.

On closer examination, most of the extractor was gone.

Now, on a blowback operated pistol the extractor isn't, strictly speaking, what you'd call necessary. On a gun like a PPK or Hi Point or Colt 1903, the extractor is only really needed to extract unfired rounds from the chamber. Tip-up barrel blowback autos like those from Beretta or their Taurus clones don't even have extractors. During firing, the spent shell is blown backward out of the chamber by the equal and opposite reaction to the same gasses that push the bullet out the front.

On a short recoil operated pistol, i.e. one where the barrel and breech travel backward locked together for a length of travel shorter than the length of the cartridge, you might still get some functionality with a broken extractor. There might be enough residual chamber pressure at the moment of unlocking to kick the spent case out of the chamber, although without the extractor claw to hold it in position to meet the ejector correctly, there could still be issues.

On a long recoil operated arm like the Frommer Stop, however, the barrel and breech remain locked together all the way to the rear, and the extractor is needed to hold the shell in place against the breechface as the barrel returns forward. Without the extractor, the round will likely just stay in the chamber.



No problem. Just buy a new extractor, right? Ha ha ha.

So, maybe make a new extractor? I worked at Coal Creek Armory at the time, and we had a full machine shop and gunsmiths on the premises who could build a gun from scratch with a lathe and a mill and a block of steel.

Okay, first, it wasn't like just the claw was gone. That would be easy enough to weld up and re-cut. This would require fabricating an entirely new part, and it's not like machinist's drawings were available for the piece.

So just get another Frommer Stop extractor and duplicate it! Except that I could count the number of Frommer Stops I've seen in the wild in my 25 years of manning gun store counters and attending gun shows without taking off both mittens.

Eventually, after a couple years of trying to find one locally that we could borrow to copy, the acquisition of a second gun was required to duplicate the part.

(This memory was brought up by a discussion on old cameras on the internet last night. And an extractor is a lot simpler part than anything you're liable to find in, say, a Ducati Sogno.)
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You might be a gun nut...

...if you find the magazine for a Frommer Stop in your purse...

...and you can't remember which of your Frommer Stops you thought needed a new magazine.

I can quit anytime I want to, honest.
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"Armorer" ≠ "Gunsmith"

There are a lot of people who hang a "gunsmith" shingle out who are really glorified parts-swappers. Sure, they can mount and boresight your scope, free-float a barrel, or put a Wolff spring kit in your Ruger Redhawk, but that's not really gunsmithing. An actual gunsmith, as opposed to an armorer, is someone who could take a block of steel into a machine shop and come back out with a functioning firearm.

On the other hand, over the last couple years, the guys at CCA have fabricated for me:

• A takedown plug for a Colt 1902 military,
• A cocking indicator for a Dreyse M1907, and
• An extractor for a Frommer Stop.

Given a set of drawings or an example to work from, and time and money, of course, I'm beginning to think they could machine a cure for a rainy day.

Incidentally, this is one of the nicer things about old-style machined steel firearms: If you buy the new Blastomatic 2000 tomorrow, and the Blastomatic Corporation goes tango uniform after one year and 5,000 units sold, good luck finding replacements for the toaster parts inside if anything breaks five or ten years down the road. This is one factor behind my hesitation to be an early adopter, even of new designs from established companies; I like making sure there's a bit of an installed user base to guarantee a parts supply and aftermarket support for a good long time. That's the reason that, up until maybe a year or two ago, I would have unhesitatingly picked a Glock over a Smith M&P despite preferring the Smith in amost every way...

Gratuitous Gun Pr0n #51: Europellets, 1907-12.

Once upon a time, it was not considered unseemly for a gentleman on the continent to acquire a pistol for his vest pocket...


Dreyse M1907, Frommer Stop (1912), and FN M1910, all in 7.65 Browning, aka .32ACP.

I feel an Arms Room post comin' on...

The list just gets longer...

The longer you collect old guns, the longer the list of stuff you need gets...

1) An extractor and a grip screw for a Frommer Stop.
2) A Radom recoil assembly.
3) A takedown plunger for a Colt 1902.
4) A thumb safety for a Colt 1908 Vest Pocket.
5) Un-bubba'ed stocks for a Ross Mk.II and a Mannlicher-Berthier M.1907/15.
6) A magazine spring and follower for a Siamese M.1903.

Wanna have fun? Ask the gun parts guy at the local Fun Show for any of the above. You'll probably get a "Nope," on the Colt parts and maybe the Radom bit, too. The other stuff just gets you a blank stare.

Wishing for the moon...

It's good to have impossible dreams. Mine is finding an IWB holster along the lines of the Summer Special or Versa-Max II, sized to fit the early Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless with the 4" barrel length.

And un-bubbaized stocks for a Ross Mk.II rifle, a Mauser Kar.71, and a Mannlicher-Berthier M.1907/15. And a magazine follower & spring for a Siamese M1903 Mauser. And an extractor for a Frommer Stop.

I also want a gold house and a rocket car.

You know you're a pathetic gun geek when...

Lots of people have little wish lists of stuff they're looking for for their guns. A scope for a Marlin .30-30. Some nice grips for their Ruger Blackhawk. Night sights for their Glock. An M1 Carbine bayonet. I envy them. They will probably find happiness.

Me? I'm stuck wandering gun shows looking for the following:

1) Un-bubba'ed military stocks with the proper barrel bands for: A Ross Mk.II, a Berthier Mle.1907/15 M16, and a Mauser Karabiner 71.

2) The extractor for a Frommer Stop.

3) Extra magazines for a Radom, a Frommer, and a Webley auto.

4) A bayonet for a Portuguese Mauser Vergueiro.

5) Correct grips for a Polish M48 Tokarev (no goofy thumbrest.)

6) A titanium firing pin for a MAS 49/56 that doesn't cost the moon.


Google is frequently no help. I have guns obscure enough that when I Google them, my own blog is the first thing that comes up. So I'm doomed to trudge the gun show aisles...


*Sigh.* Diogenes had it easier than this. Maybe I need a lamp?

Riddles for the day all answered.

1) Yes, my Frommer will feed a Winchester Silvertip from the magazine.

2) Yes, my Frommer will ignite the primer on a Winchester Silvertip.

3) Yes, there is an amazing amount of monkey motion you can feel in your hand when a long-recoil pocket pistol is fired.

4) No, a long-recoil pistol will not work without an extractor, unlike most blowback or short-recoil pistols.


So now we know.

I'd put a Frommer Stop extractor on my Amazon Wishlist but A) I don't have a wishlist, B) Amazon doesn't carry Frommer Stop extractors.



PS: Now I want a Gabbet-Fairfax Mars. And people in hell want ice cream.

Boomsticks: Gratuitous Gun Pr0n #46

The Frommer Stop is a long-recoil operated pistol. The tube over the barrel contains two recoil springs; one for the barrel and one for the bolt. The bolt and barrel travel rearward locked together, at which point the barrel is freed to return forwards. The extractor holds the spent shell against the breechface as the barrel springs forward and as soon as the spent shell is free of the chamber, the ejector kicks it out. Then the bolt travels forward, stripping a fresh cartridge from the magazine.

The operating principle seems so normal in a Browning shotgun, but to see it in a little .32 pistol is superweird.

(PS: If anybody wants to add this photo to the currently unillustrated Wikipedia entry, you have my express permission, as long as credit/linkage/attribution is given.)

How friggin' embarrassing...

I'm trying to check my Frommer Stop to see if it's delivering a good lick to the firing pin.

The problem? It's a .32, so the old trick of dropping a pencil or ballpoint pen down the tube won't work, and I have not found a single piece of dowel or anything else to use for a substitute.

I'm probably going to wind up doing something insanely elaborate, like priming a case, (only I just realized I don't have a shell holder...) or trimming down a piece of plastic sprue to fit.

Or maybe I'll try and make Instant Gratification Tam act like Patient Mature Tam and wait 'til backyard shooting hours tomorrow and then I can just step outside and bust a cap in the yard...

Sorry I'm late...

Just got back from the National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association show in Chattanooga. Neat! Neat! Neat!

I saw more absolutely beautiful old Lugers than you could shake a stick at. (When's the last time you saw a pistol just sitting there with a $15,000 price tag on it?) There were Colts and Walthers and Roth-Steyrs and Dreyses and you name it. There was the absolute most perfect Polish Eagle Radom I have ever seen, and I got to hold it! I had no Idea the pre-War ones were that pretty, with nitre-blued screws and pins and even the end of the extractor visible in the slide. Oh, and I got to hold a Colt 1911 with Serial No. 12XX, from the very second batch of guns to come out of the plant.

The old guys were all pretty friendly, at least the ones who talked to me enough to figure out that I hadn't been dragged reluctantly to the show when I would've rather been out shopping. (Actually, one man there said to me "My wife's out shopping," to which I replied "Really? So am I. Do you have any Radom magazines?")

There were no Frommer Stops.


PS: My Colt Pocket Hammerless was older and way nicer than any of the ones I saw there. I'm beginning to realize what a great score that was...

eBay punks out.

"After learning that some items purchased on eBay may have been used in the tragedy at Virginia Tech in April 2007, we felt that revisiting our policies was not only necessary, but the right thing to do."

Translation: "How many victims? And their families each have a lawyer. F&*#, that's a lotta lawsuits! We'd better be seen doing something proactive before they get the idea to come after us, too." The only "right thing" they are concerned with here is the kind that can be deposited in the bank.

Trust me, they've already crunched the numbers and have determined that firearms parts and reloading supplies net them only a tiny fraction of the revenue of, say, counterfeit Hello Kitty merchandise...

Who this is really going to affect is folks with old guns looking for repair parts. Maybe even more than Numrich, eBay was the place to go to look for that hand you needed for an Iver Johnson revolver or an extractor for a Frommer Stop.

Project update.

The slot atop the barrel nut thingie makes an inadequate substitute for a spanner, but forty year old congealed WD40 makes a perfectly adequate substitute for glue.

After a bit of swearing, some sweating, and tracking down a pair of needle-nose pliers, I have a pile of Frommer. Sexy gun pr0n by Oleg Volk to follow before too long, hopefully.

Boomsticks: I have an idea...

Purely for entertainment purposes, I am going to attempt to field strip my Frommer Stop.

Hilarity may ensue.

(We're trained professionals on a closed course; don't try this at home, kids.)

I has a intarw3bz!

...or at least my friend does.

Oh, jeez, I have so much to catch up on.

The gun show was festive; some stuff went away, and some stuff showed up. Look forward to new posts at the other blog on an Argentine 1909 Mauser (with an intact Argie crest!), a Brazilian 1908/34 Mauser (.30-06!), and a Frommer Stop.

Now it's off to check my email, read the news, and see if I can generate some snark for the morrow. :)