Monday, December 05, 2011

The uplifters are at it again.

The lame duck Indianapolis city council is meeting tonight and on the agenda is a proposal to strengthen the city's workplace smoking ban. Currently exempt are bars that admit people only over 21, cigar bars, private clubs, and fraternal organizations, bowling alleys(?), and designated smoking hotel rooms.

The GOP-run city council wants to extend the ban to bars, bowling alleys and all hotel rooms, and their proposal would only allow existing grandfathered cigar bars, clubs, and fraternal organizations to continue being hazy, while all new ones will have to be smoke-free.

The Democrats on the council are opposing the ban, not out of any sense of overreach, but because they think it's the GOP's way of trying to short circuit the total ban of all smoking in all workplaces that they themselves intend to ram through when their shiny new majority gets sworn in after the new year.

Now, it doesn't much affect me directly: I don't bowl, don't go to bars, and don't belong to any private clubs, so I pretty much only smoke at home these days, but when I heard some of the arguments being put forward by those overcome with, as Mencken put it, "the old lust to lift 'em up", the only thing that saved the TV set from getting Elvised was the fact that it wasn't mine.

My favorite was the earnest plea to think about the employees who "have to" work around secondhand smoke all day. Because you know how press gangs of bar owners are all the time kicking in people's doors, dragooning them off to work, chained to the taps in those smoky Satanic pits.

I would submit, alternatively, that there are so few workplaces that allow smoking these days that maybe the employees in those places deliberately looked for someplace to work where they could take a puff without getting rained on. Not that that would worry the do-gooders, because at the end of the day, nobody who is really earnestly engaged in Doing Good worries about the feelings of those they're helping. It's not really about the helpees, anyway.

Does this look like the face of somebody who's really concerned about others?

.

82 comments:

bluesun said...

She appears to be concerned with their everlasting souls, and that's it.

Tam said...

bluesun,

Y'know, I used to buy that, but I don't anymore. People like that may fool themselves into thinking that they're worried about others, but really all they're concerned about is brownie points in their own ledger book.

Robert Langham said...

You can vote all you want for conservative government....but you can't ever get it.

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

The dual base-pair DNA of the American make up.

Nothing is more American as live and let live, don't bother me and I won't bother you. The earliest settlers were all about this.

Nothing is more American than getting all up in someone's grill and telling them how to live. The earliest settlers were all about this.

I'm sure it's a human thing and not restricted to our shores. Or maybe we're unique because we still have some semblence of option A, and most other locales have bred that out of themselves.

Anonymous said...

"I pretty much only smoke at home these days"

In Colorado, you can be prohibited from smoking in your own home (warning: link goes to left-wing web site).

Joanna said...

People like that may fool themselves into thinking that they're worried about others, but really all they're concerned about is brownie points in their own ledger book.

"She's the type who lives for others, and you can tell the others by their hunted expression." -- C.S. Lewis

Heroditus Huxley said...

A good friend of mine that smokes and used to wait tables would go refill drinks in the smoking section for a little stress relief--just smelling it made her a little less frustrated on Sundays when the fundies would go out to eat after church and sniff over those who were working on the Sabbath not being good Christians.

I oppose smoking bans just on principle. And I haven't smoked in nearly fifteen years. I also oppose busybodies that think they know what's best for everybody to the point they're willing to take away choices.

Panamared said...

Funny thing about some fundamentalists, they seem to forget that God gave us freewill, he want's willing compliance not forced followers. [One of the difference between Christianity and Islam]

Guffaw in AZ said...

Are you SURE that's not John Edgar?

Tim Ellwood said...

I try and try to understand why all these people who don't know me care so much for my health. Even living here outside of "Winston-Salem" NC we are subject to the same type no smoking laws,and Tobacco built this town and most of the state. I look forward to SHOT show each year, I am well over the show but LV is one of the few places left to be able to set down with a drink and a smoke, at least in the lobby/casino bars but i am sure that will end soon also.

docjim505 said...

Well said, New Jovian Thunderbolt.

I suppose that most people look at a drunk, a crackhead, or some other moral reprobate and think, "Boy, if I could only cut off his supply or otherwise stop him getting his hands on the stuff, it would save his life!"

It's not a bad thought to have; really not much different than thinking, "Hey, that guy's drowning! If only I had a rope to throw to him!"

The problem is that, in the interests of trying to save people from their own mistakes, we tend to go overboard (no pun intended) and incovenience, harass or outright criminalize people who don't want or NEED to be saved.

IllTemperedCur said...

One thing that always struck me about the second-hand-smoke movement is that the "studies" that make the case are usually looking at the cancer rates of bartenders and cocktail waitresses compared to the population at large. Never mind that damn near every bartender and cocktail waitress in the nation smokes like a coal-fired battleship from the Spanish-American War.

Nathan said...

Speaking for my own fraternal organization, all of the lodge buildings I frequent are non-smoking and have been for years.

When I remember what my mother lodge's building smelled like when I first joined, that just makes me happy. We called it "old man smell". And it wasn't funny.

But the difference between what we did and what the city proposes forcing on businesses is that we did it of our own accord, because that's what -we- wanted. Not because some jackass elected official told us to do it.

I figured this would happen with a Dem-controlled council, but I hardly expected it from the lame duck Pubbies -- each of whom should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail.

Anonymous said...

Our beloved local gummerment decided to save anyone in the village from the evils of smoking. They took away the privilage of smoking in even in your own place of business.

They wrote two tickets: the VFW and American Legion on bingo nights, then lost their nerve for enforcement.

Court dates are coming. Thumbs up to the crusty old vets!

Gerry

Tam said...

Nathan,

"But the difference between what we did and what the city proposes forcing on businesses is that we did it of our own accord, because that's what -we- wanted."

Indeed. And I'd venture to say that a solid plurality of pubs and bars and watering holes have ixnayed the smoking, too, of their own accord. Can they not leave the remainder alone?

(Oh, wait: Government. Forget I asked.)

og said...

If health and safety was their concern, they could simply require proper ventilation in the smoking areas.

ventilators exist which can remove materials like ricin and sarin from laboratories, that are lethal in the most miniscule quantities. Those same vents would probably do a good job of taking out tobacco smoke, I'd guess.

I was just at the Horseshoe Casino in Hammond, last friday. Though the ENTIRE FACILITY is filled with smokers, you have to literally be standing directly next to a smoker to even know it.

it is possible to remove it. This is again, not about safety, it's about control, pure and simple.

Tam said...

Og,

"This is again, not about safety..."

Of course it's not.

Mike Gallo said...

That's a great picture of Garrison Keeler (sp.?) in drag with a hatchet. Wherever did you find such a gem?

Pakkinpoppa said...

It's been on in Ohioland for a while. But before the nannies saved us from ourselves, businesses would decide whether they wanted to allow smoking indoors or not.

I recall being in a TGI Fridays... the "bar" part was in the middle, the restaurant stretched around the outer edges, separated by a handrail with posts every 8 feet. When I went to light up in the bar section one day (yeeeeeeears ago!) I looked to my left, and there sat a family of four, 2 childrens in the 2 to 4 age group.

I went outside and inhaled my coffin nail.

My best friend doesn't drink or smoke, but he opposes smoking bans of any kind out of principle. I quit about 6 months ago but oppose bans out of principle. I mean, if we can let the "people" vote in a use for your property (as the ban in Ohio was a ballot initiative here) then what can't be voted away?

Brad K. said...

Tam,

Doesn't "Fraternal organizations" include the police union? That might explain a part of the Democratic stance, especially if they figure they can appear to oppose something that will pass anyway. That gives them good Union exposure, without actually making kids and waitresses and Elks and Moose employees sick.

One thing smokers often overlook, is the saturation effect of smoke. Consider smoke-tanned leather. A bit of exposure to smoke coats the fat cells in the skin, thus preserving aspects of the leather for long, long years, after a short exposure. I don't understand why tobacco smoke isn't assumed to penetrate skin and clothes as thoroughly and as long term.

I wonder if Heroditus Huxley' waitress accounted for the tips she got for smelling like smoke -- or tips she lost or were reduced because she carried the used-smoke aroma to the table.

My Wal-Mart recently abolished the (well-ventilated) employee/manager smoking room. Now smokers huddle outside, and I cannot enter or leave the store without getting a whiff of used smoke.

I am not campaigning for or against, unless it is for less regulation and fewer wastrels worried about morality of others, with the authority of the government.

Just keep in mind that there are people used to a smoke-free lifestyle, and notice and make choices based on whether they have to enter a smoke zone.

Unless choosing to smoke establishes a moral and integrity baseline that others don't measure up to. .

On the other hand, why do the Republicans want their daughters and sons to hang out in bars without getting a nasty smoke-smell on their good work clothes?

Didn't the city council get paid by enough special interests to write that first ban in the first place? You would almost think they were collecting from other special interests for their next campaign. Or vacation. Or TV and car.

Ken said...

Unrepentant serial minders of other people's business are unfit for the company of decent folk and should be shunned to the furthest extent of the natural law.

Tam said...

Brad K.,

"Just keep in mind that there are people used to a smoke-free lifestyle, and notice and make choices based on whether they have to enter a smoke zone."

Exactly. And now that they've driven the filthy niccers out of 90% of the bars, pubs, taverns, and nightclubs, they're going after the last 10%.

I'll note that the proposed Dem ban will even prohibit cigar bars.

In other words, you can't open a place solely for smokers, that would only employ smokers and only be patronized by smokers. That's just fucking gratuitous smuggery on the part of the do-gooders, and I hope they all die in crotch fires.

El Capitan said...

Reminds me of that quote from Capt. Redlegs in 'The Outlaw Josey Wales': "Doin' right ain't got no end!"

There are some creative solutions to smoking bans. We've got one in place that prohibits smoking in bars & restaurants. We've also got a crew of code enforcement inspectors who are the only ones who can issue smoking citations, and they ONLY work M-F 8a-5p.

Both they and the bar & restaurant owners are well aware of that fact...

BGMiller said...

"I hope they all die in crotch fires."

Thanks. Now I have to explain to the boss by the monitor is dripping Pepsi.

BGM

Blackwing1 said...

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

Attributed to C.S. Lewis

perlhaqr said...

In other words, you can't open a place solely for smokers, that would only employ smokers and only be patronized by smokers. That's just fucking gratuitous smuggery on the part of the do-gooders, and I hope they all die in crotch fires.

Oh, shit. That's the stuff. They might ban smoking or hell, even food, but if they ever try to keep my from my snark fix, I'ma go postal.

Anonymous said...

Why do you continue to smoke when you know they can kill you? Just eat a bullet already and get it over with...or maybe you long for the day when they rip out a lung or you're riding around on your bike with a bottle of oxygen in your basket?

I am against the government telling people what they can/cannot do, and it's your right to breathe poison, but WHY???? When the doctor says "you have cancer"...will it all be worth it?

og said...

Anon 3:23: How about you go fuck off and die?

Any vice will eventually be fatal. That's why they call them vices.Not your goddamned business. Pitiably, stupidity isn't nearly as lethal as other vices, it ought to be.

Joel said...

...the only thing that saved the TV set from getting Elvised was the fact that it wasn't mine.

That didn't stop Elvis, you know...

Tam said...

Anonymouse 3:23,

How 'bout you lay your life open for our examination so I can find the shit you do that will kill you, Jim Fixx?

Or do you actually stay out of the UV in a darkened room and live on a diet of carrot-juice-soaked tofu, you anonymous gutless coward?

Matt G said...

I'm on record as saying that I believe that smoking's pretty dumb. Strangely, some really rly smart people that I know seem to still do it.

Oh, and re: Carry/Carrie Nation? Every word that I read about her convinces me that she was a bitch who found no joy in her own life, except for observing tragedy and loss in others:

"Carrie Nation applauded the assassination of President William McKinley since she was convinced that he was a 'secret drinker of alcohol,' and, of course, drinkers always 'got what they deserved.'" --A Buldog For Jesus

Part of being a grown-up is being able to walk out of places that I don't want to be in, making my discomfort about smoking known to my friends so that they or I can act accordingly.

Matthew said...

Much of the argument against going smoke-free by business owners was that "they'll lose business"; at least it was up here when our nannies got the bar smoking ban passed.

But business didn't drop and a lot of people grew to appreciate the smoke-free clubs and bars. Including me, cause my hair and clothes don't stink after a night out.

That said, I was against the ban at the time and now. And now that people have tried both ways, and the bar owners know their business won't suffer, I'm all for having the ban removed. After all, if the purpose is health and to educate people so they can make informed choices (the old "regulatory nudge") then the mission has been accomplished.

Return property rights to owners and adult decision making to potential employees and customers.

If "we" via government aren't willing to do that then it proves control was our only true purpose.

Tam said...

MattG,

...and you've seen how deeply enthralled I am to Demon Nicotine!

Tam said...

Matthew,

And that's where we're at in Indy now. Most joints are smoke-free, even if they had the option. Only a scattering of corner pubs still allow smoking, but that's too many for the uplifters...

Stretch said...

A local store owner smokes when there are no customers ... or when a smoking customer (ya, ya Dangling what evers) joins him.
His philosophy is "When the government does my paperwork they can tell me how to run my store."

og said...

"I'm on record as saying that I believe that ________ pretty dumb. Strangely, some really rly smart people that I know seem to still do it. "

Fill in the blank with mountain climbing. Skydiving. Octopus wrestling. Bull riding. Anything that someone enjoys, that can also be dangerous.

1: People do things because they enjoy them. There, does that explain it adequately? People. Do. Things. Because. They. Enjoy. Them. Don't scratch your head in mock misunderstanding "Ah jes doan unnerstan why people wood do such a dum thang!" Piss off. People do things because they enjoy them, and that is an end to it. And everyone does things they enjoy that are not good for them.

2: Even if you're too damned stupid to understand that people do things because they enjoy them, it isn't now and will never be any of your business. And don't drag out the old chestnut about secondhand smoke, because there isn't a human alive who doesn't leave the detritus of their activities around them, and it's all toxic to one extent or another. Smoking is just more palpable and thus more easily whined about.

As for the whole "smoking in clubs is icky" bullshit, if you go to a nightclub, and mingle with the skanks, dorks, milfs, jackasses, jerkwads, hos, and cougars stepping out on their old men with polyester poodles from across the tracks, and your clothes smelling like smoke is the thing you worry most about, you've got issues too big to resolve without years of therapy. Hint: Washing machine. Nuff said.

Good god, people just love to fuck with smokers.

Tam said...

Og,

Not sure who I'd bet on in a spellin' bee between you and my good friend MattG.

Tim Ellwood said...

OMG, I am going to die from smoking?
No one told me that! I kinnda hope that's the case, but I imagine it's much more likely that it will be a lot sooner because I eat food that has taste and I like, or some texting teenager crossing the yellow at 90 mph or because I go to a public range and only one in ten of the wingnuts there know muzzle control. A wise person told me "no one gets out of here alive, you yanna live forever"
Jim Fixx, love it, enough said.
next they will be complaining I wear too much Old Spice, shess

Anonymous said...

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
H. L. Mencken

Phillip said...

I don't like cigarette smoke. My wife is an asthmatic and tends to have attacks when she's around smoke, and when I used to smoke cigars while away from her, she'd get one just from the smell being on me. Nowadays the smell chokes me too. I won't stay anywhere the smell is too strong because of what it does to my wife's health.

That said, who the hell gave the government the right to tell people what they could and couldn't do on their own private property? Why are the politicians that vote for this not hung by the neck until they're dead for violations of the civil rights of the citizens? If I go into a restaurant and it has a smoking allowed sign and there's a haze about halfway to the ceiling, I'm going to turn around and leave. I'm a grown-ass man, I can handle that kind of thing for myself, I don't need a bunch of buttinskys from the government to tell other people what to do to make room for me.

As TJIC would (probably) say: Rope. Tree. Politician. Assemble properly.

Matt G said...

Og, I suspect that you skimmed over the part where I said, "Part of being a grown-up is being able to walk out of places that I don't want to be in, making my discomfort about smoking known to my friends so that they or I can act accordingly."

As a guy who liked sky-diving and plans to do it again, I appreciate your viewpoint.

But I won't back off of my claim that intentionally drawing smoke into one's lungs seems pretty dumb to me. I've always tried to avoid it, unless the company and the situation was so enjoyable that I was willing to put up with it.

And Tam, you're a damned polite smoker, you are.

Able said...

Hi to all. I've been lurking for a long time, just appreciating the wit and .. well, that rarest of commodities, common sense evident on this, my favourite blog. I used to think I was all alone in my views (well except for the esteemed Mr Pratchett), especially living in what some term rightly “the country that used to be Great Britain”. (Oh all right, and I admit I dream that I'll meet someone like Tam one day. Intelligent, astute, sarcastic, independent, tall, beautiful and.. best of all a shottist. What's not to like. Is it to early to propose?)

I'm a nurse, although currently off injured (ham-string tear, subluxated knee (dislocation) and RSD). Have you ever wondered why so many nurses and doctors still smoke? Well, personally it's because I've actually read the 'supposed' research on smoking. It's all bull. Don't believe me, go read it. From the first piece which was done in the late 40's to find a reason for the recent up-tick in lung cancers (which found no increase in smoking subjects, and actually found it offered some protection against the radioactivity the second group was exposed to). Or the unaccountable problem of China, most men there smoke, very few women, and yet the cancer rates are approximately equal (?). It's never been about health, it's power and the rise of the 'new puritans'. Bronchitis and emphysema, yes, cancer, no. Second hand, or as they have it now third hand smoke, don't start me on that or I'll end up having a stroke. Not the smallest bit of evidence whatsoever, I mean Nil, Nada, Zilch.

So I'm going to go on upsetting the health fascists by enjoying myself, smoking, the occasional single malt (when I can afford it and the store will sell it to me, being only 45 I have to prove I'm old enough), dreaming of when I could go to a range (yes I'm that old) and of course keeping an eye out in case Tam unexpectedly flies into the PRUK (my physio has me doing deep knee bends so I'm getting practice for the big event ;-) ). I hope you realise how lucky you all are there, here smoking in any public space is Verboten, soon even outside and in your own car (if they get there way). They're already starting on alcohol, food, salt – what's left? Fight while you can or like here your choice, rights and a major number of businesses will go the way they have here.

Keep up the good work (taking off my wookie suit now)

Able

Jayson said...

Like someone else said before I could: when it comes to life, no one gets out alive.

Even if you hide from UV and have the healthiest diet and exercise regimen, the act of breathing oxygen kills you. So knock yourself out and put something you like into that air you're breathing!

og said...

Tam: I can spell fine. I just can't type. And that comment isn't nearly as rife with (unintentional) typos as others.

Matt: You probably skimmed over the part where I said "it's none of your business". And the comment wasn't intended to be a personal attack, I just rankle evertime i hear someone come up with the inanity "it's dumb to draw smoke into your lungs!!!" So you never sat and enjoyed the aroma of a woodfire, you never appreciated a pile of burning leaves in autumn, you never drooled at a BBQ smoking away... because all of those things involve drawing smoke into your lungs. You never did those things, because they're dumb. And they're not enjoyable at all. So of course nobody does them. Nobody smart like you, anyway. So don't take it personally, but piss off anyway.;) And i don't even smoke, anymore. (Used to be a "Social" smoker for years, mostly to irritate people like Matt, but I stopped for good when the Dr told me i was in the sweet spot where smoking +low LDL plus weight =MI)

I don't as a general rule drink. Mostly because I break out in handcuffs. But not once in my life have I ever said anything as inane as "I think drawing alcohol (Which is a poison) into your body is dumb" Because a: it's none of my business, and b: I don't care.

Now, nobody ever plowed their car into a nursery school because they smoked too much, nobody ever changed lanes into a semi because they had to much to smoke, and not one person, to my nowledge, has ever killed themself in a horrible traffic accident which included dozens of other people and a schoolbus full of handicapped kids who burned alive in the wreckage because they had too much to smoke.

I don't say anything about those things, generally, because- wait for it- it's none of my business. People do things they enjoy doing. So far as it doesn't involve children, farm animals, or my personal property (Or tax dollars) I tend to keep my mouth shut about it, whether I disaprove or not, because it's none of my business.

Mark Alger said...

Carrie Nation: If somebody'd only shot her when she first started minding other people's business -- pour oncourager les autres -- I suspect our nation would be a more pleasant place today.

M

Anonymous said...

Anonymouse 3:23,

How 'bout you lay your life open for our examination so I can find the shit you do that will kill you, Jim Fixx?

Or do you actually stay out of the UV in a darkened room and live on a diet of carrot-juice-soaked tofu, you anonymous gutless coward?

...Struck a nerve there TAM? You know you're a slave to the tobacco companies don't you? You WANT to quit don't you? Smoke 'em if you got 'em jackass! Keep sucking the poison. You claim to be intelligent.

And to the nurse that says it's all bull...you should read some recent studies moron. I'm also a health care worker that sees the harmful effects of cigarettes EVERY day. It's not the nicotine, it's the 500 other poisons you're drawing into your lungs. They are killing you, I can assure you.

Anonymous said...

Smoking is for hillbillies!

Able said...

Ha! Anonymous 3.23. Have you actually read ANY studies or like almost all the gullible out there do you just accept what you are told? 500 poisons? In what quantities? What are their effects? The simple answer is you don't know, don't care, because it makes you feel righteous and good to spout inane sound-bites. Try reading up on the “significant reductions” in instances of Alzheimers, Parkinsons, Obesity, Stress, not to mention the analgesic and anti-emetic effects. Will you? No, it might challenge you to actually think as an individual instead of fitting in with the In crowd. Those black lungs in the propaganda weren't smokers you know, they were from a coal miner.

Life is a balance of risks. Every action is based on a personal evaluation of it's cost benefit. The operative word is 'personal'. As Og so eloquently explained, I and other smokers do not force you to breath our smoke, we take excessive measures, mostly at a personal cost, not to do so. But that isn't enough for those such as yourself, you must make decisions for us, decide what we do in our lives. I wonder how many actions you take that I would find unhealthy and unpleasant, the difference is I wouldn't insist that you, and everyone else be barred from doing so. It's your choice. Just stop trying to force your views on others, especially when they're based on biased, carefully selected and manipulated statistics.

Ok sorry to everyone for the rant, I'm climbing off my soap-box now. And I even proof read myself this time :-) .

Anonymous said...

Lol...Abel thinks smoking is actually GOOD for him! What an idiot. The evidence is OVERWHELMING that cigarette smoke is more harmful to your health than some very minor benefits. Nicotine in itself is not that bad for you, I agree.

Among the 500+ known harmful chemicals in tobacco smoke, at least 69 can cause cancer. These cancer-causing chemicals include the following (1, 4):

Arsenic
Benzene
Beryllium (a toxic metal)
1,3–Butadiene (a hazardous gas)
Cadmium (a toxic metal)
Chromium (a metallic element)
Ethylene oxide
Nickel (a metallic element)
Polonium-210 (a radioactive chemical element)
Vinyl chloride

Other toxic chemicals in tobacco smoke are suspected to cause cancer, including the following (3):

Formaldehyde
Benzo[α]pyrene
Toluene

Do you really want to defend smoking as beneficial? You're going to lose that argument dude.

Anonymous said...

This just in...Smoking will make your nipples fall off!

http://gizmodo.com/5865525/smoking-may-make-your-nipples-fall-off

Isn't that the only incentive you need to quit? Well, I guess Tam isn't using hers anyway.

stbaguley said...

See the problem is this. No one in their right mind would want to spend time on a holiday with Anony. 3.23. The "mind your own business" folks are the ones you want to hang with. But BECAUSE they don't want to get in your business they never run for public office. We suffer the result of that imbalance. Our brilliant forefathers, understanding this, designed our government with checks and balances to keep the anonys all at each others throats, then parked them in a malarial swamp (You have to love that!). They also advised that there was a 200 year service interval on the design. So here we sit.

Anonymous said...

Huh?

Brandon said...

the only thing that saved the TV set from getting Elvised was the fact that it wasn't mine

You were going to leave the TV to die on the crapper? Man, that's just cold.

Anonymous said...

Tam, do yourself a favor and go get laid this holiday season! You need it. Then have a smoke afterward. That one will be excusable. :)

og said...

"Among the 500+ known harmful chemicals..."

OH NOES! SMOKE HAZ CHEMICALS!!!! I THOT IT WUZ PIXI DUSSSST!!!

Look around you, moron. try checking out some of the ougassings from your computer's plastic case, or the inkjet printer, or the copier, or the "new car smell" in your ride. The world is chock full of carcinogenic shit, and tobacco smoke is a fart in a windstorm b comparison. But I wouldn't expect the anencephalic to understand.

You're much safer than the rest of us, god knows, down there in mom's basement, criticizing the adults behavior. if you actually had the balls to say this crap to people's faces, you'd have to do all your communication via computer, because your face and teeth would not withstand such a confrontation. Hell, for all we know you could already have been taken to Steveie hawking level by someone demonstrating to you how your opinions should remain in your inside voice.

heh. The coward told Tam to get laid. Can you say "projection"?

Anonymous said...

OG...Typical hillbilly, resorting to violence.

Sure, there's plenty of shit that'll hurt you, so why help it all out by voluntarily sucking more of that shit directly into your lungs? What a dipshit you are.

Talk to me buddy. I can help you with those anger issues. Get them out. Talk it over. It's OK to cry. It's not your fault you were called bad things by your parents and siblings.

When was the last time you OR Tam got laid?

Able said...

Oh please, it's Able, and after I was so precise and polite to you, Anonymous 3.23, too. Still kudos to you for actually trying to answer the question instead of the usual smokophobes/left-wing/liberal reaction of pretending not to hear, then descending into abuse when you can't supply the facts.

For the record actually there are more than 4000 chemicals in cigarette smoke, 43 of which are listed as being carcinogenic in nature. But here's the catch, carcinogenic in what concentration, in the microgram exposure from cigarette smoke, no, in substantial (multi-gram, usuallly oral) doses given to lab animals. Then there's the fact that you will be exposed to those exact same, and some even more carcinogenic, when you sit by your wood-burner, in your car, or cycle to work. Then you want a really dangerous chemical cocktail, try looking at a pharmacotherapeutics book sometimes to see what your doctor gives you to stop smoking (almost like the prohibition poisoning of thousands – after all they're just disgusting smoker, who cares if they die).

The evidence is overwhelming? The research is in many, if not most (I haven't read it all), both statistically and methodologically questionable (Hey it's just like AGW). There is a mass of research on smokings benefits, try a simple scholar.google search. See any of the benefits ever mentioned in the msm, no, me neither. A couple to get you going:

PN Lee - Neuroepidemiology, 1994 – content.karger.com

L Fratiglioni… - Behavioural brain research, 2000 - Elsevier


Oh and if you don't have a car, hold your breath whilst out, use clean renewable electricity from coal, oil, gas and nuclear power plants (whilst you pretend to only use that produced from those eco-friendly bird mincers which don't actually produce all that much) you better give up the java too. Sorry you can't feel all smug and superior to us smokers when coffee contains all those nasty chemicals, you know:

Caffeine - an alkaloid plant toxin (like nicotine and cocaine)

2-Ethylphenola – tarlike substance, It's also a component of cockroach alarm pheromones

Quinic acid - one of the starter chemicals in the formulation of Tamiflu

3,5 Dicaffeoylquinic acid – an antioxidant

Dimethyl disulfide - compound that gives human faeces its odour

Acetylmethylcarbinol - buttery flammable yellow liquid

Putrescine - Ptomaines like putrescine are produced when E. coli bacteria in the meat break down amino acids

Trigonelline - molecule of niacin with a methyl group attached

Niacin – I'll let you have this one as a good guy

So like I said, life's about choices. You make yours, but don't even try to stop me smoking as I might get.. sarcastic (I could give you a list of some really choice ingredients in almost any possibly enjoyable substance or activity if you'd like)

Oh, and I'm not a dude, I'm a man. From that little pleasantry I guess either you're one of those over-educated but uninformed student types, or an ageing hippy taking your moral busy-body pleasures out whilst stoned on whichever drug is currently cheap, available and has the usage instructions in simple one syllable words.

Have a nice day :-) I think I'll go back to lurking and leave the educating to those with a more succinct turn of phrase

Anonymous said...

It's liberal to NOT want to breathe poison? I wish it were only misinformed dumbass conservatives like yourself that died from smoking. The world would be a better place. Back from your smoke break ABEL? When you're using all your strength just to BREATHE, I'm gonna laugh and laugh and laugh...

You must be new to smoking. Give it some time, it'll slowly rob you of your youth, white teeth, lung capacity, and time on this planet. Stop breathing my air, slave.

Able said...

That is to say Og, and what do you mean it's not pixie dust, I only buy them to keep all those pixies employed (not much else for them to do north of the border, or was that pictsies?)

Anonymous better wrap it up nobody cares what your opinion is, adults make their own decisions (unlike you who only thinks what the msm/teachers/politicians/pressure-groups tell you to think), your mum will be annoyed if you forget to take the trash out and shouldn't you be doing your homework anyway.

Able said...

Oh dear, how sad, the liberal abuse has begun - how... unpredictable.

For your information, life expectancy of smokers is .. yes, you guessed it, exactly the same as for none smokers. Life expectancy for countries with higher smoking rates than the US is... higher than the US

I'll have a smoke and think pleasant thoughts about the fact you have a fifty percent increased risk of developing Alzheimers, not that anyone will probably be able to tell the difference

og said...

Able: SHHHH! Don't give our secrets away!!

Anonycoward: if I had resorted to violence, you'd alread be a shitstain on the carpet in your mom's basement.

og said...

lol. This idiot probably also thinks DDT is teh awful!!!!

Anonymous said...

Can't we all just get along? Look, a squirrel! Instead of continuing the serial insults, try taking a deep breath, with or without smoke, then go read "The true story of the Night Rider Tobacco War in Kentucky and Tennessee." The title of the book is On Bended Knees, and the author is Bill Cunningham. The story also has a bizarre and delightful "twist" at the very end. You will also learn how Duke University came by its name. Sincerely, Kentucky Jones.

Able said...

Oh sh, I forget you colonials are different :-) It's not a secret over here, the picts are renowned for their smoking habits. I believe there is even a wild fresh-water smoking fish called a kipper (or was that smoked? I forget).

Of course he thinks DDT is poisonous, but more importantly he's been told that banning DDT keeps those ickle mosquito friends safe whilst getting rid of those pesky parasites on the world, homo sapiens. After all, malaria is gaeias way of telling us there are too many conservative/libertarians/capatalist in the world

Able said...

Pleased to meet you Kentucky.

I am already, very vaguely, aware of the episode (yes, shock, even a Limey knows some history, I read a lot). It is a completely different issue to that previously discussed but the battle between farmers and big corporate interests is nothing new or, even, not still happening (I was raised on a farm, left for the military, rather than half kill myself working for what the major supermarket chains will deign to pay, a tiny percentage of the market price. British agriculture has been decimated with foreign suppliers only competing with big agribusiness). Real capitalism, or a government not bought and paid for by the highest bidder would prevent this (one of the few real reasons to have a government)

As a British person I'll reciprocate, why don't you try H. "W. Crocker III - The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Civil War". I'm sure you'll find it illuminating :-)

og said...

Oh, there's a book. That MUST prove that Kentucky is right! Just like Silent Sproing (sic) proved DDT is teh awful!!!

Sorry, that dog don't hunt. 1: Don't care. 2: none of your business 3: all of your strawman arguments are of course asinine and facile, and 4: beginning with your initial comment of "Just eat a bullet already and get it over with..." show that you're a troll. We are getting along, just fine. Giving no quarter to trolls. Go put the softener in the wash like Mom says, and be a good little boy and run along.

Anonymous said...

You are right ABEL, smoking is good for you! You should up your intake to 2 packs a day, oe even more!

http://www.smokerslungs.com/

Umm, smoking takes YEARS off your life jackass. Sure, you can probably find some study from the 50's funded by big tobacco that says smoking is perfectly healthy. The scientific evidence is OVERWHELMING that smoking is unhealthy.

Another thing...don't you all realize that the only thing keeping Tam from being a total hippie is the fact that she totes a gat, eats bacon, and never has sex? She owns a CAT for crying out loud! She reads! She drinks hippie coffees!

This thread started with how the .gov shouldn't be pushing us around telling us what to do. I AGREE! What I don't understand is why you want to pump poison into your system, and dumbass ABEL is cheering you all on, completely misinformed, saying that it's healthy. I smoked for a long time. It MADE ME SICK. A LOT. I QUIT, AND I FELT BETTER. Thats not a coincidence!

Anonymous said...

OG...why so angry? Easy with the threats there buddy. Like I said, it's OK to cry, but violence only proves that you're a toothless hilljack.

You and ABEL started with the insults and threats of violence, and I am the troll? LOLZ.

Able said...

Oh, a personal attack with name mentioned, does this mean I've 'Arrived' in real blogdom?

Anonymous 5.26, sorry to hear about your illness but how do you know it was smoking (and that alone, not other factors, not genetic predisposition, not environment, diet - just the smoking), you don't, and medical professionals are trained to give you the quick answer (it's easier after all checking a real family history, a complete work-up and still most times there is no definitive 'cause' - much easier to say have an excuse, say smoking or drinking. The body is complicated and one factor affects each individual differently. If smoking was the killer suggested by all the pressure groups why can nearly all of us point to someone who lived to 93, a second cousin, after smoking 40 unfiltered cigarettes a day since he was 11). Then there's also the rationalisation factor, you want someone to blame, understandable but doing so without real cause is simply childish.

A site which covers most of the life data is:

http://www.kidon.com/smoke/index.html.

The thread did start on government enforcement, but who are the government pandering to? People like you, who for whatever reason feel that choices they made independently should be 'forced' on others.

As to the rest of your diatribe, I would suggest that in insulting Tam you have shown yourself for the pathetic bottom-feeder you are. further I suspect you really want to hurl abuse directly but the lady in question is obviously too astute to fall for your sad little attempt at recognition (I really do feel sorry for you and your pathetic, miserable little life where the only joy you have is to hurl insults at your betters, from the safety of anonymity). I shall now follow the example of my better (my apologies Tam, hey I'm a slow learner and it's been fun playing with the uneducated lout) and refrain from 'feeding the trolls'

Justthisguy said...

It's on account of posts like this that I generally cue up "Fairest of the Fair" when I load Tam's page. Hey, she's the palest person I know of! The music does somehow evoke her writing style and what I can infer about her personality.

Her housemate will have have to get by with "Hail to the Spirit of Liberty", or "The Free Lance"; I haven't decided yet.

There is a Sousa march for every purpose and occasion. It has been years since I could stand to listen to "The Washington Post." The title just ruined a perfectly good piece of music for me.

Anonymous said...

ABEL, you aren't exactly all "out there in the open" just because you're posting under the name ABEL. I don't see any info under your profile. How about a real name and email address? Home address? Phone number? I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Justthisguy said...

Gee, Og, I'm just the other way. I'm at my meanest and grumpiest when sober. My friends and acquaintances tell me that I am one of those "happy drunks" who is better company when he has had a couple or three.

I will admit that drinking somewhat too much has caused me some problems in the past, because of its tendency to make one say exactly what he thinks.

Justthisguy said...

Oh, BG? Credit should go where credit is due. I believe "die in a crotch fire" was coined by Our Cheese Mistress, LeeAnn.

Her blog is currently named, "Look! A Baby Wolf!"

WV: reperati. Those who clamor for reparations for non-existent wrongs.

Tim Ellwood said...

My poor old Grandfather died from smoking, poor guy went though WWI as a motorcycle messenger, mustard gas took a lung, worked on the railroad as a brakeman for 40 years, retired, smoked two to three packs a day of unfiltered camels his whole life,cut down in his prime, after raking the yard he laid on the couch, lit a ciggie and fell a sleep, burned down the whole friggn house ( lived alone, already put a couple wives in the ground), such a shame. he was only 98 years old.

Justin said...

I have never smoked, and don't generally spend time with those who do. However, after reading the posts from anonymous, I'm considering taking up the habit, if only to hasten my own death, allowing me to cross to the great beyond, a place that is free of such pathetic, sad little creatures.

Able said...

Justthisguy - sorry but JP Sousa was a little ruined for me by my automatic association of his, admittedly stirring compositions, with.. well .. Monty Python (The Liberty Bell).

For me it's got to be the Dambusters and 633 Squadron and may be Lilliburlero - Hey, I am a Brit, I'm biased.

Justthisguy said...

Able, I betcha that you are not brave enough to write the name of Guy Gibson's dog. I agree with your other musical choices, and will add the RAF March Past.

Sousa wrote hundreds of marches. There is one for everybody.


Actually I am more partial to the works of Kenneth Alford, aka Major Fred Ricketts, Royal Marines, his real name.


If you hear a good band play "The Vanished Army", I guarantee that you will weep like a baby, if you have any similitude of a soul.

Justthisguy said...

I have just loaded my Kenneth Alford CD, and "The Great Little Army" is soothing my ears at this very moment.

I do so love the cantabile counter-melodies in the low brass.

Jtg, old band nerd, at the right of the line, with The Colors.

Able said...

Justthisguy - well that would be Ni.. Oh D..m, that's cruel! Ok I admit I'm nervous of the PC crowd, I've got to work in this 'socialist paradise' :-)

Kenneth Alford is it? Well, I see you as a man of perspicacity and good taste. Listening to 'The Vanished Army' played by The Band of H.M.Royal Marines as I (two fingered) type. Very good of course, especially their ability to march hand-in hand (well they are 'marines' you know) ;-)

Try a little more of Goodwin, The Royal Air Force Central Band - now that is stirring even if it is about the Bryl Cream boys.

Per Ardua

Able said...

Now I've completely ruined my 'street cred' (stop laughing, I did have some, honest) I'll listen to something more, er, 'hip?'

Maybe some Manowar or Crüxshadows, it's that Michael Z Williamsons fault for getting me onto them. Have to admit I (Hi, my name is Able and I'm an audiophile) I prefer the eighties stuff (good memories) and listen (and sing along to the mp3's). I sometimes forget where I am, was asked for an encore of my rendition of 3 Doors Down 'Away From The Sun' in the check-out queue at tescos once. Must be good as there's always a reaction when I sing, children screaming (in adoration?), old ladies collapsing (with lust?) and many people running (to go get their friends to come hear me???). It's hard being this good ;-p

If you feel flush there are some good recordings at?

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafmusic/cdsales/index.cfm

Per Ardua

Brad K. said...

Tam (from 11:17),

"and I hope they all die in crotch fires. "

I won't be crass and suggest selling tickets. I won't be crude and insist that the purge be quite thorough.

. . but if the video makes it to YouTube, please, please post the link.

BTW, do you have any idea if someone has a patent on "death by crotch fire"? I can think of a couple of anti-social acts that might warrant that kind of response. Besides banning smoking in cigar clubs, that is. Department of Education administrators that think that SWAT teams are a good idea for collecting unpaid student loans comes readily to mind. Just kidding. Sorta.

Anonymous said...

God, this subject splits me, really it does.

I love being in a smoke free bar. As I never had any choice if I breathed your smoke or not, I find the cries of 'Mind you own business, it is up to me if I want to smoke' border on arrogance and just plain Fuckyou-ism. Sure I could just not go into bars, there's a choice for you, but I remember when smoking was everywhere, not just in bars. A non-smoker really had very little choice if they smoked or not.

And yet I will take the smokey eyes, stinky clothes, sore throat and gruff voice the night after a good session on the piss, over yet another fucking ban.

Cheers- Rusty