Tuesday, November 13, 2012

If at first you don't secede, try, try again.

So the news has noticed all the petitions on WhiteHouse.gov, wherein people are threatening to hold their breath until they turn blue (or red, as it were.)

Texas's petition to secede was up over 60,000 signatures last I checked, and Indiana's had passed 11,000; hardly a resounding plebiscite but enough to get HuffPo's EZ-Twist knickers in another one.

Secession of course, is treason. Unless you win, in which case it's not. As John Harington famously phrased it, "Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why, if it prosper, thou gets thy face on the one dollar bill."


JD Rush said...

I see 60,000 Texans getting an audit next year.

mikee said...

Texans believe that having been our own country once before we can darn well do it successfully again.

And there is, right now, to be honest, a desire to take our ball and go home because we don't like the way the game is being played. Or even that there IS a game being played, when we want reality.

Bob said...

It's obviously not serious, since even California has a secession petition on file, and if any government is going to need federal assistance (read: bailout) in short order, it's California.

John Stephens said...

While I don't think it's a good idea (yet), peaceful secession is NOT treason, which is defined as bearing arms against the United States. The error of the Confederacy was in immediately attacking Federal troops and installations, rather than testing their various Ordinances of Secession in court. The constitutionality of secession been neither proven nor disproven, the events of 1861-1865 were nothing more than a restatement of "Might Makes Right".

Dave said...

I'm a bit tempted to sign some of these just to see what sort of vague form letter the White House interns email out for succession petitions.

Honestly, I'm more surprised that people still take that site seriously than that people want to succeed.

Anonymous said...

NONONONO!!!!!! It is NOT treason. It is our RIGHT. Like GUNS, FREE speach,Freedom of religion, and the rest. If I am compelled to support something I do not belive in, then I am a slave, The property of a King,and not a free man. All treason is, or ever was, is saying; "This man is not my king"

Anonymous said...

This is a tempest in a teapot, and the leftists are just hyping this to make conservatives look like nutters. 3,000 citizens of Nazi Jersey want to secede, out of how many? 60,000 Texans? Big freakin' deal. There's probably as many card-carrying members of the Communist Party in the US. And how many hippies wanted to move to Canada in 2004?

The shoe's on the other foot, and now it's our turn to take our lumps. It's how the game's played.


Panamared said...

It might be time to take a look at The Declaration of Independence, as a guideline for just how far citizens should allow a government to abuse their rights before taking action.

Brad K. said...

The question of Texas seceding came up a few years back. It seems that Texas came into the Union under a different agreement that the rest of the states, and may be able to leave the Union without the rancor or legal bars that face the rest of the nation.

This past election, bought and paid for in the inner cities (ACORN, anyone? Welfare checks? Union activists? Foreign contributions?) challenges the notion of a national election, or the notion of a government by the people. I think, in the past, Presidents in similar positions were actively engaged in a political activity called fence mending. I don't see much of that going on.

Talk of secession harkens back to the Declaration of Independence, "When in the course of human events . .". I haven't seen the Congress meeting it's Constitutional responsibility to hold the President to the terms and meaning of the law and the Constitution. If the US is no longer a nation of laws, then has the Union actually endured, and would it be in the best interests of the security and prosperity of their citizens for states to consider severing ties to Obama's Purchase?

Occupy that, AFL/CIO and ACORN.

Myra said...

Texas petition: 71K and change as of now.

Texas population: more than 25 million (says Wikipedia based on a 2011 estimate, anyway).

It's like having one vegan at the once-a-decade, family reunion that required you to rent out Yankee freaking Stadium. Complain all you want about the turkey spread on the third-base line, but nobody's going to hear you over the sound of all that masticating going on in the stands.

I'm not a fan of the current administration, but I'm also not interested in saying, "Yeah? Well, your mama," and taking my ball home. I'm more of a "hang together or hang separately" kind of chick at this point. Yeah, I'm full of sunshine and rainbows today.

Mr Evilwrench said...

I've signed several of them myself; you're not required to be a resident of the state in question. The petition merely reflects the will of those of the people who feel this way.

As a nation, we have become so polarized that there is little prospect of reconciliation. I say, let the parasites have their little utopia until they realize it won't work, but don't bring the rest of us down with them.

I would hope, that among the states seceding, we could form some sort of oh, I don't know, maybe a "confederacy" extending all the way to the gulf and the Atlantic, so we would have some ports.

global village idiot said...

Mr. Stevens,

The Melian Dialogue may not be moral, but it is practical. It is as my former Intel friend said of the Red Army, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

I consider the secession question settled de facto, if not de jure. There is one question I'd like to see discussed. To my knowledge few other than myself have raised it.

It is impermissible for a state to secede from the Union. Per contra, what if we wanted to show an unproductive and recalcitrant state the door?

No one has ever said a thing about kicking a state out of the Union. I think it's high time we raised the question.


steve l said...

I remember a lot of secede bumper stickers in the lone star state back in the '70s, doubt the sentiment was new then, or waned much in the interim

Anonymous said...

Texas was not successful as a foreign country. Rather, its failure was subsidized by the US when it was annexed, and the US took over its debts.

Secession is not always treason. Legal secession would be by amendment, by federal statute, or by successful supreme court case. Illegal secession would be insurrection, per Texas v. White.

Anonymous said...

The Texas annexation was by federal statute, and affirmed by pleblicite of people in Texas. In the annexation, Texas had the authority to divide itself into as many as 5 states, which would give it a total of 10 senators. When readmitted, there was no such provision, and the historical boundary of Texas included part of what is now Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming and Oklahoma, but those boundary changes were not set by Texas, though affirmed in part by them and in part (country club case) by the supreme court, so the division of Texas by Texas remains unexercised.

Anonymous said...

I have seen bumber stickers that say "Make Mexico Take Texas Back!"

harp1034 said...

One of my great-grandfathers was a Confederate soldier in Texas. Most of them surrendered in May 1865. The last battle was in June 1865. After that the last of the holdouts faded away.
There will be no secession.Texas might take bake its state rights if the federal gov't were too booged down with something else and unable to respond. Other states are watching.

Anonymous said...

While you're laughing, you might want to think things through:

Being a socialist, Barkie is running out of money as are his power bases in California, Massivetwoshits and other liberal stronghold's. He seriously needs to lay hands on more of 'other people's money'. Texas has money, as do other conservative states.

I see Barkie pushing through a form of transfer payments between the states, nobly intended to help the 'have-not' states weather difficult economic times - with the handouts coming from 'have' states.

It happened up here in Canada. Quebec is infested with fwench socialists, they have run deficit gov'ts for decades and will never balance a budget again - as long as they can mooch off the rest of the country.

I will bet dollars to donuts that somewhere in Barkie's back rooms - this idea is being floated and tweaked and that America's producers will be bankrolling the failures and parasites sooner rather than later.


Cannoneer No. 4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cannoneerno4 said...

How many Secesh got hanged for treason after The War of Northern Aggression?

Of course.

Sport Pilot said...

I’ve several ancestors who served in Confederate Army during the course of the Civil War, with my many time’s great grandfather being shot in the chest and placed with the dead and dying simply because he wasn’t expected to live. The young lady he later married after the Civil War was helping as a nurse that day and saved his life.
That was a horrible war that should never have happened with fault being on both sides and the South losing in the end. The reconstruction was every bit as brutal as the war, if not more so. So with that history in tour nations past where does this succession nonsense come from and what do these parties think that they’ll achieve?
I’m proud of my heritage but not in the slightest unaware of how bad things were in the past or how badly women and others were treated. History is intended to show us where we’ve been and what we’ve done so that we might avoid the mistakes of those we follow behind. It torques me that instead of becoming political activist and running for office so many people simply want to complain.

Jayson said...

"It torques me that instead of becoming political activist and running for office so many people simply want to complain"

If you got the money start a campaign, go ahead and lob it at me. Otherwise, shut it.

Brandt Hardin said...

The racism of yesteryear has come full circle in our county. The entire world embraced our choice of a black President four years ago and most nations of the world still support him. The fringe elements of Republican sect have crept through into the mainstream once again with conservative mouthpieces planting the seeds of hate. The only doubt lies here at home rooting from bigotry. Watch the white hands paint Obama in Blackface at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/10/bamboozling-obama.html

Noah D said...

The entire world embraced our choice of a black President four years ago and most nations of the world still support him.

You say that like it's a good thing.

Ed said...

When did it start to concern us that other countries embraced our choice of President?

Tell us who would be objectionable to other countries. I may vote for him just for that very reason.

After all, what has Obama done to justify that Nobel Peace Prize?

Brad K. said...

@ Mr Evilwrench,

So, are you saying that the people voting for California to "secede" . . might not be from California, and just hope for relief from economic, legal, and social burdens of Californians?

Steve C said...

Shortly after chuckling over a news item on the Succession movement, I heard a reading of the Gettysburg Address from the upcoming Lincoln movie. My humor of the Successions is gone.

Steve Skubinna said...

This is just a poke in the eye of the administration. And if it exercises the HuffPo twits, that's justification enough.

I actually find this amusing, unlike the petulant threats to depart the nation if Smirkychimp W. McHitlerburton was reelected.

Kristophr said...

Anonymous, re Texas Secession:

That was abrogated when Texas joined the CSA. Texas had exercised it's right to secede ... and then joined an enemy of the US in an act of war.

All of the states in the CSA were rebel states that were forced back into the Union. Except Texas.

Texas was conquered by the Union Army. So any old treaties between the Republic of Texas and the United States are as moribund as the Washington Naval Treaty was after the Empire of Japan was nuked into submitting.

I don't see the current Nippon Diet being in a hurry to exercise Imperial Japan's right to build a bunch of battleships.

Any old treaties between the Republic of Texas and the United Stated became an old dead letter when that entity ( an independent Texas ) was ended by the Union Army and force of arms.

Conquered countries do not get to cite old treaties, sorry.

tanksoldier said...

Succession is not treason. Treason can only be committed by someone with allegiance to the United States. If you renounce your allegiance (and citizenship) you can't commit treason against the US, even if you have to wage war to defend yourself against a Union that doesn't want to let you go.

As for the right to succeed, per the 10th Amendment, all rights not explicitly granted to the Federal government lie with the States or the People. The right to control or deny succession is not explicitly granted to the federal government so it lies with the States and/or People.

mariner said...

I cringe when my favorite people say stupid things, and this is one of the most stupid things you've ever written.

Secession is NOT treason; it is the right of free men and women always. Our country was born of secession from the British empire.

I'll second the suggestion that you re-read the Declaration of Independence, with special attention to

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Kristophr said...

mariner: truth, secession is not treason.

But once you secede, there is nothing stopping your former country from declaring war on you and conquering you.

Slavery made a damned good reason for the war dec.

And despite all the yowling by southern apologists, the American Civil War was ALL about slavery.

Punitive tariffs were imposed because of slavery. The Mason-Dixon Compromise was about slavery. The guerrilla wars in Kansas and Missouri were about slavery.

Once they seceded, Lincoln was willing to compromise, and offered to pass the Ross amendment, permanently enshrining slavery in the constitution of they would return to the Union. The CSA refused, as they thought they could win in 1862.

Sport Pilot said...

Jayson said...
"It torques me that instead of becoming political activist and running for office so many people simply want to complain"

If you got the money start a campaign, go ahead and lob it at me. Otherwise, shut it.
4:45 PM, November 13, 2012
I’d be glad to donate money to a reputable candidate who has the personal integrity, common sense and pragmatic approach to conservative fiscal budgets and limited entitlements this country once had. If that’s and your actually running a political campaign or assisting with the campaign of a like candidate then we can talk. Being a political activist doesn’t mean you’re running for office, are a liberal or even a radical. Instead it’s simply a matter of using the best means available to you to make a difference in the political process.

goober said...

Brandt the racism tune is really getting old. Can we change the station please? There is plenty to criticize the conservatives on. Racism ain't it. Find a different song to sing and stop being such a bore.

Brad K. said...

@ Sport Pilot,

"Being a political activist . . it’s simply a matter of using the best means available to you to make a difference in the political process. "

Someone called to mind a quote of Margaret Thatcher, that socialism will always fail, because sometime you will always run out of someone else's money.

Activism isn't about the "best" means of changing how society acts, it is about using "available" means. And the change can be as benign as better(?) schools (teaching someone's agenda), or as self-serving as getting copyright protection periods extended. (Recall the premise for patents and copyrights were to enrich the nation with bright ideas and innovations coming into the public domain. It is estimate that the billions of dollars of copyright and patent "intellectual properties" would amount to trillions in the economy, if released to the good of the nation on expiration of the original periods. Occupy *that*.)

Activists, any fundraisers, all are socialist projects that depend on sucking other people's money out of the economy. So much for "most campaign funds raised". The economy will be years recovering from the diversions from production of this last election -- money that wasn't used to finance new businesses, hire people, expand franchises and buy homes.

Commander_Zero said...

"Secession of course, is treason. Unless you win, in which case it's not."

If you lose, its a civil war. If you win, it's a revolution.