Friday, October 08, 2010

Are they trying to turn me into a paranoid militia kook?

"We're going to make this much more difficult for you if you don't cooperate."
And, hey, it's legal. You have no expectation of privacy in public, as the 9th Circus just reminded us. By extension, there is no problem with an FBI agent standing outside your door and tagging you like a migrating harp seal every time you want to run to the 7-11 for a bag of chips, and warrant be damned.

Are they trying to start a fight?

52 comments:

Kevin said...

To quote Winston Churchill, "they do not see where their theories are leading them."

ParatrooperJJ said...

There is a actually a circuit split on this issue. It will be at the SC soon.

GunRights4US said...

Yeah... they ARE trying to start a fight. After all, it's been a long time since the citizenry was willing to resist here. They're counting on the fat, lazy, dependent electorate to stay within the indoctrination box and do what they're told at all times.

Boy are THEY in for a surprise!

Weetabix said...

I take the Ninth Circuit's every ruling with a dose of salts.

Nathan said...

9th Circuit: Most overturned circuit of the bunch.

wv: pigge. This little pigge went to market; this little pigge slapped a GPS tracker on your car.

rickn8or said...

If you attach something to my car, I consider it a gift to do with as I please.

And don't expect it back in the same condition in which you left it.

Crotalus said...

I don't think they're trying to start a fight, because I think that they believe we WON'T fight. To them, this is about power and arrogance. I hope we can surprise them, for they have left us no other choice.

The people in power no longer hold to the Constitution. All three branches of the government do anything they want, without fear of reprisal. We must hang on to our guns. We Patriots will need them.

theirritablearchitect said...

To answer your question curtly, yes, they are.

This will end badly.

Earl said...

I am of the opinion that the license plate is the only government owned property on my vehicle, and anything else was placed there by a reality entertainment show and if it doesn't make my driving safer I can remove and dispose of questionable devises.

Lazy law enforcement fellows, sigh.

Wolfwood said...

Looking at this as a whole, it's not actually that bad. What we're seeing is abuses coming to light and being addressed by the courts. It's a slow process, but as we're seeing with Heller and McDonald, progress is being made.

Remember that these abuses have probably been going on for a long time; it's just that they weren't dealt with before. Remember also that stupid decisions by trial and intermediate-level appellate courts can be useful, too, as they tend to force the issue to be decided by an authority binding on all. What would've happened if DC had simply said "Oh well; I guess Dick Heller can just register his stupid gun." We'd be pretty well SOL on the national level, at least for a while.

Also, good on the ACLU. It's important to remember that there's no "The ACLU" in terms of policy. Local ACLU groups can do largely whatever they want, which is why you might see one chapter trying to restrict 2A rights while another fights vehemently in favor of them.

Anonymous said...

Old news. Remember the big wedding in "The Godfather" where the FBI was writing down all the license plate numbers? They really do that stuff, and always have. It's just more noticeable now because there are so many more Federal offenses and people being investigated for them.

David III said...

I say turnabout is fair play! Can you imagine the reaction if the local Sheriff, Mayor, Police Chief, Judge, etc... found tracking devices on all their vehicles? You know... the kind you can get at radio shack? Just tell em they have no right to an expectation of privacy!

Joanna said...

I would be impressed if someone found a tracker on their car, then found a way to move it to, say, a semi truck. Or a 747. Or a freighter, China-bound.

Or, what might be more fun, their dog. "This guy never goes anywhere! He just drives around in circles in his yard!"

But yeah, anything I find on my car, I consider a gift to keep.

Bob S. said...

Am I the only one thinking if there was a tracking device on my car that I would spend a lot of time sitting outside the home of the Chief of Police/Special Agent in Charge/Bureau Chief?

Or give it back to them by placing it on the car of any of those said worthies?

Ken said...

Are manhole covers magnetic? Underside of a manhole cover in the skeeziest neighborhood I could get away with.

Or a random pizza delivery wagon.

Anonymous said...

Hey all:

Yes, they ARE trying to start a fight...they think that all we have are deer rifles and very loose organization, if any at all. They have Blackwater (or watever they call themselves now) and MANY other like organizations, with tight command and control and military grade weapons.

This will not end well...

cap'n chumbucket

Joanna said...

Let's see ...

City bus, school bus, short bus; hack cab; delivery truck, garbage truck; airport luggage cart (that would take some planning); the neighbor's car, the neighborhood watch's car, the car at the end of the street that never seems to move but someone must be driving it because it's never dusty and it moves maybe an inch backward or forward about once a week and it always disappears when there's a thunderstorm; hapless pizza delivery kid, hapless just-got-his-permit kid, and my personal favorite, the not-so-hapless teenager from the next neighborhood over who you caught trying to sell weed to the kids next door.

I'm having fun brain-gaming this. The possibilities are endless.

Mike S said...

This should cheer you up!

Federal Court Upholds ObamaCare's Individual Mandate

Far from "inactivity," by choosing to forgo insurance plaintiffs are making an economic decision to try to pay for health care services later, out of pocket, rather than now through the purchase of insurance, collectively shifting billions of dollars, $43 billion in 2008, onto other market participants.

Au├čenseiter said...

@Joanna

Gift? In that case, they'd charge you with theft. Now, these devices are kind of expensive. A few years in the slammer, at minimum...

theirritablearchitect said...

"Looking at this as a whole, it's not actually that bad. What we're seeing is abuses coming to light and being addressed by the courts..."

No.

This is not, as you say, "not actually that bad."

It is far worse.

Terrible, almost beyond belief.

Also, it is not, "being addressed by the courts," because if it were, we'd have had some action on this, and some cops would be in fucking JAIL, right now.

Do you understand that in your world, people will be ground into a pulp while the courts supposedly "handle" this outrage.

Oh, and most likely, the result will be the SCOTUS upholding the LEO angle on this invasion of privacy/Fourth Amendment excision.

Wolfwood said...

theirritablearchitect

It was terrible before, when it happened but nothing was done. This is a chance for the matter to be addressed. It's also a good situation in that the victim hasn't been charged with anything, so he's at no risk. All he needs to do is sit back while his local ACLU chapter throws a fit and handles the case.

Our courts can usually be relied upon to come down hard on any perceived violation of the Fourth Amendment (not always, but usually). If this low/no-risk case goes forward, it offers the potential of protection to others who are also bugged but do the kind of things suggested in this comment thread and wind up charged with whatever the local magistrate feels like that morning. And even if the ACLU loses, every level of appeal offers the potential for greater weight as precedent for any eventual decision in their favor.

To my mind, that's much preferable to stacking STANAG mags of .223 by the door. There are certainly abuses going on, but I'm increasingly confident that they can be addressed through the democratic process, including the courts system.

Derius Thoran said...

I have tried my best to honor my country my entire adult life. I fought and bled for her, and I do believe in the Republic Under God.

That said, I find things becoming disturbing. I find myself wondering if the oaths I took to guard my country against all enemies foreign AND domestic, will soon be tested.

If we honestly, truly believe with all our hearts that our current leadership have become enemies of the Constitution, WHAT do we DO?

Voting is one thing, but if that doesn't work? Do you believe in your heart of hearts that possible organized resistance is truly on the horizon? If so, do those of us that do outnumber the others? Are we/us/they willing to risk being called traitors for doing what our very Constitution TELLS us we MUST do?

Or will we grumble and grip and complain, but meekly hand over our papers and guns when they show up at the door?

Are there people truly willing to do what the founders did and STAND? Do those men and women still exist, or will we all be assimilated?

Sorry for the wall of text, but I am deeply, deeply concerned. More than ever in my life.....

Stuart the Viking said...

Wolfwood: Can't we do that AND stack STANAG mags by the door too?

Nobody is saying that we are going to start shooting tomorrow afternoon at 3:45pm. We are just saying that this is another inducator that things are (still) going down hill, and eventually, we may need to take care of business.

s

Steve Skubinna said...

No, they aren't trying to start a fight, any more than you're "trying to start a fight" if you spray a wasp nest. They figure they won without a fight.

Why else would a fed make that statement? He's not just assured of the full backing of the law, he's IS the law. Incidentally, how long has FBI murderer Horiuchi spent in prison?

Wolfwood said...

Stuart the Viking

Yes, although I'd offer the strong caution that if you have a lab, Dalmatian, or small child then doing so may ultimately prove counterproductive.

I think that this is actually a greater time for optimism than we've had in a while. People are slowly starting to come out of their slumber and remember what the Constitution means. Through the internet, they're able to learn about abuses such as these. We've just had two 2A SCOTUS victories that would've been unthinkable even a decade ago. The reason things seem to be going downhill may well be that we're finally getting a chance to learn about what's been going on.

jeffreyquick said...

This is the difference between mahayana and hinayana KYFHO (obscure F. Paul Smith literary reference).

I'm grateful that the guy opened his mouth. But it would have been better for him had he just moved the device onto some other vehicle. He'd have had plausible deniability...."I didn't see such a device; it must have fallen off somewhere". And he'd still know they were after him.

Kristopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kristopher said...

Automotive GPS jammer.

theirritablearchitect said...

"...There are certainly abuses going on, but I'm increasingly confident that they can be addressed through the democratic process, including the courts system."

I suppose that I should call you an optimist, and let it go at that, because from what I've been witness to, I don't trust that democratic process as far as I can throw it.

The courts have repeatedly thrown us under the bus, too, so I'm not relying on them either.

Xa Lynn said...

We're going to make this much more difficult for you if you don't cooperate."

...sounds a lot like...

You can't stop it, so you might as well lay down and enjoy it.


I'm thinking, "NOT."


Xa Lynn

staghounds said...

Take it off when you go someplace, put it back on when you leave.

In five or ten years, every car will be remotely monitorable anyway, just like your cell phone is.

Welcome to 1984. Since it's a government project, it's over budget and behind schedule.

Anonymous said...

Actually, if I found something like that on my car, I'd probably back slowly away and call the local bomb squad.

The FBI could collect the tiny pieces from them.

Bubblehead Les. said...

Joanna; Where does your Congress Person or their staff members park their vehicles when they're back home? ; )

mariner said...

Wolfwood,

I've NEVER heard of ANY part of the ACLU fighting for anyone's 2A rights.

Ancient Woodsman said...

How apropos: get older and "much more difficult if you don't cooperate" sounds kind of like what the nurse says prior to the colonoscopy.

As far as 'them' making you in to a 'paranoid militia kook' there are two angles: a)you could never be in reality, and b) in their world you already are, as would be Sam & John Adams, Henry Knox, John Stark, et. al.

Sigivald said...

Kristopher: Illegal to sell, and illegal to use.

Not to mention terribly rude to people around you who'd like their mapping systems to work.

(And all snark aside, Tam's correct. It is legal, and there is no expectation of privacy in one's location when in public.

There's never been a right to "not be tailed by cops without your knowledge", for instance.

The only vaguely plausible claim the guy might have is an expectation of privacy in people not attaching stuff to his car, but given that "booting" is legal, as is slipping a note under the windshield, that's unlikely to fly.

And that's also dubious as a "privacy" claim... especially given that the 4th Amendment is about not having your stuff searched and taken...)

Anonymous said...

Sigivald,

The issue isn't that they attached something to his car. The issue is they attached something to his car while it was parked on his property. And did so without a warrant. And the 9th circuit upheld that as permissible under the 4th amendment.

A French Style revolution is looking better and better all the time...

Matt G said...

As a cop and as a private citizen, I don't care if someone notes my comings and goings by visually observing me coming and going in public. Mrs. Grundy across the street already does it all the time, anyway, you may be sure. But I sure's HELL have a problem with someone installing a device on my car to track my comings and goings at all time. And then having the audacity to demand it back? Sheeit.

Here in Texas, I would be as likely to issue the fed a citation for Criminal Mischief.

Want to track someone that way? Get. A. Warrant.

Comrade Misfit said...

I'd have gone down to the tracks and thrown it onto a freight car.

Kristopher said...

Sigvald:

So effing what? If I get caught, the FCC has to first get a judge to order me to stop using one ... civil penalty here only. Self rightious Hams can go pound sand.

I own one. folks in Taiwan could care less about the FCC. I encourage others to buy them. Bite me.

Jim said...

Give it back to 'em in a gallon ZipLoc bag, fulla piss.

Just tell 'em it's your First Amendment Protected Artistic Statement, and you'll be wanting your NEA grant now, chop chop!


Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

doubletrouble said...

Early on, theirritablearchitect had an opinion, & I agree- no good can come of this.

And D. Thoran- you are not alone.

Anonymous said...

While it may be a bit of an oxymoron to expect privacy in public it is quite reasonable to expect some degree of anonymity.

Anonymous said...

OK, no expectation of privacy in a public place. Lets all photograph and video record every car with a governmental plate (especially police cars) whenever we see them.
If they are unoccupied, we can place a note under the windshield wiper:
"I photographed this vehicle and noted the time and location. Your movements are being recorded. You have no expectation of privacy in a public place."

Netpackrat said...

DEA has been doing this to pilots and aircraft owners for many years. More than a few pilots and mechanics have found unapproved (for aircraft installation) equipment hacked into their aircraft's electrical system, and upon inquiry, been told that it is against the law to remove it. Since it is illegal to fly with unapproved equipment installed, what you have in effect is a tracking device on a vehicle that can't go anywhere.

Kristopher said...

Netpackrat: Ask these DEA idjits for this legal opinion on paper.

Then demand rent for the plane since they are making it unflyable. Then sue the individual who's name is on the paper.

docjim505 said...

Good comments. My somewhat random thoughts:

1. The police already can (I think) tail you without a warrant. I think that part of the objection is that the black box just makes this sort of surveillance easier and rather more orwellian.

2. In the same vein, there have been squabbles over the police using FLIR and other gee-whiz gizmos to "search" random houses for possible indoor marijuana greenhouses. Do the police not already conduct similar "searches" whenever they drive through the neighborhood and the officer looks around for "suspicious" activity? And don't we sort of WANT them to do that kind of thing?

3. Where do we draw the line between normal and acceptable police activity and "police state tactics" that might require some sort of resistance?

4. I suggest that the issue of requiring a warrant is basically born of a growing mistrust of law enforcement in our country. From cops dressed and armed like banana republic paramilitary thugs to no-knock raids to an every growing number of laws and regulations to be enforced, a lot of people (including me) seem to be starting to think that the cops aren't around to uphold the law and catch crooks, but rather to keep folks in line, to make them live their lives in a way approved by our political masters.

Yeah, this sort of thing could get ugly.

Au├čenseiter said...

Paranoid about GPS?

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/12/tracking_automo.html

All new tires have RFID chips with a unique number on them.

Now, I'm not sure whether there isn't a project where RFID readers would be installed on major highways. That could easily track which car goes where and when.

Afaik, some places already have such roadside RFID scanners installed.

@Kristopher

Knowingly jamming police GPS tracker wouldn't be "obstructing police work"?

There's this Canadian SF writer who's banned for life from the US, having commited the felony of "not getting onto the ground fast enough" when told so by a border guard...

Jamming law enforcement trackers is far more serious than that.

Seems to me, one should
get some sort of "ring of invisibility to agents of the state" when visiting the Land of the Free.

Anonymous said...

The "land of the free" has more non-violent people incarcerated than any other nation on Earth!

Is it really STILL the "land of the free" with all the myriad and unknown "laws" that have been imposed on us by Special Interest Groups and bureaucrats within the various federal departments/agencies who actually write these stupid bills that the elected criminals don't even bother to READ before approving them for use against their constituents.

Hanging would be too good for most in Congress today AND IN THE PAST (let's not forget who was there in earlier times and committed heinous crimes against the people's liberties!!!!!)

Urutu
III

Kristopher said...

Aussenseiter: Those fuckers can see me in court. I'm not some foreigner they can forbid entry by fiat.

We still have jury trials in this country. I will make them sorry they screwed with me.

Anonymous said...

The "call the bomb squad" idea is excellent. Wait till you're parked in front of a bank or (even better) an area that would create a HUGE traffic mess when the Squad closes it all down to create a safe zone.

"9-1-1, what is your emergency?" Uh, hello, I was coming out of the bank and found a strange device attached to my car. OMG it's blinking! It looks like some kind of timer!

Robin said...

The FBI is still a pack of morons.