Wednesday, September 07, 2011

You've got the wrong idea, sister. We aren't in this together.

In comments at Robb Allen's blog in a post regarding the IHOP shooting, logorrhoeic anti-gun commenter ubu52 nearly decorated her cupcakes on finding the following quote in a news article:
Ralph Swagler stayed down in his restaurant until the shots stopped.

"I had my pistol; I wasn't going up against an automatic rifle," Ralph Swagler said. "I'm sorry. I wish I would have shot him in the back now as he was going toward IHOP, but I wasn't clear on the situation."
Ralph Swagler is a smart man.

A handgun is for self-defense, not for charging into battle. Especially somebody else's battle.

I've got bad news for you, ubu52: If you're in the building next door and someone goes in there and starts shooting at you, I'm not coming over there to save you. My Supergirl Underoos are at the dry-cleaners. You're going to have to save yourself.

32 comments:

staghounds said...

Which she will try to do by hoping the killer shoots her last. Terrible to set yourself up for hoping an innocent stranger dies to save you, isn't it?

North said...

Ugh. Words fai

Bram said...

It always pissed me off that I couldn't carry in any way when I was on duty in the National Guard. Walking around in the community I am supposed to protect in an uniform that clearly makes me a target, and I can't touch a weapon (some of the cops I served with did carry).

I couldn't even have my unloaded M16 in a Humvee with me on a public road - the weapons were all locked up in a separate truck.

This incident is the logical result of that policy that I argued against years ago when we ran counter-terror exercises.

Anonymous said...

OOOH!, Okay, okay, don't go rushing in if its a shooter, but what if its a Zombie!!?!

I mean, if we aren't going to go rushing in if its a Zombie, why did we buy all those Zombie targets and practice head shots?

Or feral hogs; what if she's being attacked by feral hogs and there aren't any tigers around?

Tam said...

"Okay, okay, don't go rushing in if its a shooter, but what if its a Zombie!!?!"

Silly Anonymous! Zombies eat brains. Why would they be attacking her?

North said...

Tam: You informed me once that I had won the internet. I shall now return said gift to you. Treat it well.

wizardPC said...

She makes it clear in a follow up comment that she was quoting him about his opinion on the select-fire capability of the shooter's AK. She doesn't seem to care that Mr Swagler didn't try to save the people in the IHOP.

And why would she? That's what the cops are for, right?

North said...

In all seriousness (about... zombies) as portrayed in movies zombies are indiscriminate as to their chosen victim. They will wander toward a defenseless person moaning "brains" and will as carelessly meander toward someone sporting a .45 and a big toothy grin.

A person intent on a public shooting spree will gravitate only toward those that can not shoot back such as people located in magically safe school zones.

They don't try their antics at the police station or the gun range.

J.R.Shirley said...

Spot on, Tam. I would only move in if I had family or very dear friends in there. (Yes, this includes you.)

Anonymous said...

What's that song you're always singing? "Sisters are doing it by themselves", something like that.

And then you tell me there is no "we" and have declared a jihad on pronouns.

Shootin' Buddy

Mad Jake said...

Am I missing something here? Is there a history behind the comments from ubu52 that I don't know about? It feels like I showed up in the middle of this conversation.

Robin said...

Mad Jake, ubu is an anti-gun troll that shows up at a few of the pro gun blogger sites.

Matt G said...

Hell, I'm a cop, and I probably wouldn't have made an attempt with my "always gun," while off-duty. (Usually a J-frame and/or a P380)

On-duty? It's my job, regardless of the equipment. Take cover, hold for the upper chest, and dump mags when he gets in front of a good backstop.

Mad Jake said...

Thanks Robin, that helps.

Anonymous said...

"Silly Anonymous! Zombies eat brains. Why would they be attacking her?"
Oh, I see. Of course, you're right. I also didn't know about her history. Now that I do, I wouldn't want to deprive any feral hogs a little fun. ;-)

Doug Watson said...

You are all wrong. This article has it wrong.

All CWP/CHP holders go rushing in at the first chance to be Rambo/John McClane.

See, it says so right here in the manual....

Boat Guy said...

To quote Clint Smith about 13 days ago;
"A good description is better than a good gunfight"

Anonymous said...

Everybody pitch in to buy Tam a new pair of Supergirl Underoos.

In Leather.

(ducks)

Don M said...

Vegan Zombie: "Grains!"

Stuart the Viking said...

It really pisses me off when the first thing out of the authorities is "not an act of terrorism" when they still don't know SHIT about what happened or why. I'm not saying it was an act of terrorism, I'm just saying that it's bullshit that they say that before they could possibly know.

s

Montie said...

"Possession of a pistol and a license to carry it does not necessarily make one a gun nut or a firearms terminology pedant. (For that matter, neither does a police badge or a DD-214.)"

Tam, truer words were never spoken.

Jon said...

Would this creature (the one who perpetrated this act) be considered a "domestic enemy" of the United States?

I ask this as I try to determine if my oath of enlistment would require me to respond in this situation, had I been present and had the ability to do so.

I may no longer be active-duty, but I do still consider myself bound by said oath.


In regards to all civilians though, I certainly agree with your sentiments.

Tam said...

Jon,

No. He was a common criminal.

Further, if you were the owner of the restaurant next door, your first obligation would be to your patrons, employees, and family.

Supposed you charged out into a parking lot with no hard cover and got smoked by this goblin? Then who would be standing between him and the people who it actually is your duty to protect?

Moriarty said...

No reason to suppose, Tam.

I've been to Locals (Swagler's place) and I'm well-familiar with the mall in which it and the IHOP are located.

Not much cover at all and US 395 and Casino Fandango are immediately downrange from the IHOP parking lot. Even if he'd been of a mind to fire on Sencion, there would have been considerable Rule 4 issues.

FWIW, I have a couple of friends who carry and who are (were) regulars at that IHOP. Neither were there yesterday.

Ed Foster said...

Any idea yet as to if it was a real AK47/AKM or an AKS? I can't find didly on the news.

"Supposed you charged out into a parking lot with no hard cover and got smoked by this goblin? Then who would be standing between him and the people who it actually is your duty to protect?".

"It" in a nutshell. No further comment necessary.

TerriLiGunn said...

Sadly this despite being the smart and in my opinion the right thing to do will haunt Ralph Swagler I think. We all second guess ourselves, but I hope he does sleep well in the knowledge he followed life's number one rule. Go home alive.

OtherWhiteMatt said...

I'm not going to question Mr. Swagler's actions, because I'm not familiar with the layout and the situation he is in.

But I will take issue with the idea that people should stand by and do nothing while somebody is doing killed.

A handgun is not for charging into battle, but it is for self-defense. Self defense of myself AND others. I feel its a duty to respond if possible to a shooter- even to the extent of losing my life.

Rushing in a getting killed is stupid- but carefully advancing and engaging is not. Many times, shooting stop attacking as soon they meet resistance. So you have to try.

Personally, I couldn't live with myself if I knew I had a chance to save lives and I didn't. I know I can't demand that of others, but don't question those who do want to.

Tam said...

OtherWhiteMatt,

Again: Mr. Swagler had people who were depending on him for protection: Patrons, employees, family...

Had he charged into a developing situation that was highly fluid and which, by the time he had correctly assessed it, was largely beyond his ability to influence, and gotten killed, how would that have been discharging his duties effectively?

The question we should be asking here is not "Why didn't Mr. Swagler, manager of the BBQ joint next door, stop the killer?" but rather "Why didn't the manager of the IHOP stop the killer?"

After all, one of the two successfully protected everyone in their charge...

Paul said...

I must agree with the other white matt on this one. While I do not think everyone who carries is a shooter I know I am. I will defend anyone against an unknown assailant. Will I take an unnesscary risk to do so? no. That is for people in body armour and with lights.

I am firmly with the sheep dogs, but I will not let a wolf live. Period and full stop.

I am not and never have been an armed sheep.

Tam said...

Paul,

If, to use your metaphor, you're a sheepdog, will you gamble the lives of your sheep to save someone else's?

If this guy had engaged the shooter, and gotten killed, then who would be between the goblin and his employees and patrons?

Nobody.

He did the right thing.

Old NFO said...

Well said Tam, just because we carry does NOT make us Super(wo)man... And athe commenter... well, I'm just gonna say no comment, otherwise I'd have to use a bunch of four letter words...

Anonymous said...

Remind me not to hire Tam to pilot my F-16

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/f-16-pilot-was-ready-to-give-her-life-on-sept-11/2011/09/06/gIQAMpcODK_story.html