Of the discs themselves, Caleb writes:
Each disk then weighs about what a .32 ACP JHP weighs in at, while offering the frontal area of a >.40 caliber round.Or, in other words, each disc is like a downloaded 60gr .40S&W bullet, a weight and caliber combination not heretofore known for its manstopping prowess. Considering that, with the pattern from one of these revolving shot pistols so popular right now, you might be lucky to get one disc on target at anything over "from here to the end of the hallway" distances, why would you want to trust it to the equivalent of an indoor "gallery load" for a Glock 22 service pistol?
I'm willing to be proven wrong, but unless sectional density is no longer a factor in penetration, I don't think I will be.
Of course it will sell like gangbusters. This is, after all, a round marketed to people whose knowledge of terminal ballistics is so shaky that they've already bought a Taurus Judge for personal protection.
36 comments:
I have a hard time trusting my life to a .410. I know what my 1911 with the 185gr Hornady XTP's will do. My wife still prefers my Ithica 37 with the #1 buckshot. She's not much of a handgun person although she does like my Llama 380.
The Judge and the Governor just seem too bulky to carry. I guess to each their own. On the rare occasion I carry a revolver, I use my Security Six.
The sad thing is someone I respect quite a bit when it comes to guns wants one of these stupid things. I think that they are going to be made of a lot of fail, but I've never shot one. I just don't see them as being very accurate or like you said having enough sectional density to matter if you did hit.
Riley
The only thing I think a Judge might work for is snakes, but then again so do .38 shot shells, or a rake, or a golf club, or a mongoose - Honey! Can we get a mongoose, it'll keep from buying another gun. Come on, you don't want be infested by snakes do you?
Jeff J
What we NEED is a 12 (or maybe 20) gauge double-barreled Howdah pistol.
Number 8 shot for snakes.
Buckshot for burglars.
Slugs for tigers.
"I am Shiva, and I ride the elephant."
(Seems like a good quote, but, with all the destruction, I can't quite remember the source.)
A guy I work with bought himself a Judge. He found one ON SALE and just couldn't help himself. His only big problem was that he didn't realize Taurus sells the Judge in two cylinder lengths...so not only did he decide to get a .410 for defence, he bought a bought the 2.5".410, instead of the 3", because it was ON SALE.
"Box of Truth" did some self-admittedly unscientific testing of these loads.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm
Odysseus,
re: The B-o-T test:
"There were bbs in the 1st and 2nd jugs, and the discs were in the 2nd and 3rd jug, for a maximum penetration of 6 to 9 inches."
I swear to you, as God is my witness, that I had not read that before making my post.
One of the big gunrags just did a penetration test on these in the last couple of months: inadequate penetration with the discs.
erich martell
albuquerque
It only works if the discs are made of Unobtainium... *sigh*
I blame the school system. People used to have at least an opportunity to learn Physics 099 and BS Detection 101.
Mike Doyle,
"It only works if the discs are made of Unobtainium..."
What about Nytrillium©®™? (It's an alloy of 90% Hypetanium and 10% Bullshittium.)
Disks turn sideways due to air resistance and then like frisbees they would scatter. Even if they hit slice and dice doesn't stop people.
My brother asked about the Judge last week for a friend who is a none gunner. Thought "it's a shotgun, you don't have to aim!" Nice to be able to put the teach on BIG brother. I told him if she wants shot for snakes a .357 loaded with shotshells takes care of both types of snakes.
WV= LASIT
Posted without comment.
OMG! Just went over to Taurus' subdivision of Rossi, looking for some Snark Fodder, and you should see what they've done to the "Circuit Judge" Carbine version! Besides .410/.45 Long Colt, it now comes in .22 LR/.22Mag, .44 Mag, 28 Gauge, and there's a TACTICAL VERSION!
Even P.T. Barnum would be dumbfounded!
Bubblehead Les,
"28 Gauge"
I have no earthly idea what I'd use it for, but the idea of one of those revolving carbines in 28ga appeals to me. I can think of no practical purpose for which there aren't a dozen better firearms, but still... dude, it looks cool. :o
Do they make these in zombie rounds?
Well - I wear a 46" coat when my weight is down, and I can slip into a 13" space sideways with an inch or so of clearance.
Given the fact that 20% ballistic gel is a good match for muscle, 8" in gel is not bad at all. A heart or lung hit with the .410 would probably stop in back muscles. An abdominal shot would probably be terribly destructive, and give nearly full penetration, as well.
We will see what we shall see when the self defense reports start coming in - but while I am not about to buy a Judge, I would much rather have a .410 handgun than a .25.
Stranger
You're right on all counts Tam but taken with your earlier post about the state of gun rights in general I got all warm and fuzzy feeling about this. Yeah it's a Taurus Judge (though it seems to be a gateway firearm) but the very fact that we're questioning some folks' sanity in choosing it over a high capacity handgun with such sanguinity just makes me smile. It's going to be a good day!
Hehe. The Judge is a gateway gun. I'm gonna sit here and giggle for a little while longer.
I did some idle research into what it would take to make a propriatary cartridge for a two-shot over/under pistol, that could also take 16 gauge... closest match for a case to base it on was the .700 nitro express(which would be cut shorter), but I think it'd fall foul of the destructive device law, and it's not a perfect match anyway.
Likewise with 20 gauge, and .600 nitro express.
Here is a video i shot of some load testing from my Taurus Public Defender Polymer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNXqaKLuNg
Dave
More musing:
Honestly if you're doing that sort of thing, you might just be better off getting a working replica of a large bore single shot blackpowder pistol, and making your own shotgun load wad(not shell, muzzle loader) to load it with. I'm pretty sure that'd be legal(and heck, I think it'd fall into a legal loophole where you don't need a licence for it either).
Stranger,
"Given the fact that 20% ballistic gel is a good match for muscle, 8" in gel is not bad at all."
I used to think that way, but as it turns out, it doesn't work that way at all.
Jello is a good-ish match for undifferentiated muscle tissue, which is not what people are made of. As it turns out, the FBI's insistence on 12"-14" in homogeneous clothed jello equates well to adequate penetration in un-homogeneous humans who might be turned at all manner of bizarre angles when you shoot them.
A round that only does 6" in jello might not make it the three or four inches to the ticker in a real, live goblin.
I shot a block of Jell-O in my pajamas one night...
@ Bubblehead Les.
The circuit judge excels at one thing: clay shooting. Nothing, and I mean nothing, points as well as it does. Virtually all the weight is behind the foregrip and the thing just snaps to your shoulder. My friends have decided that using that plus a RDS on top is officially cheating. I am really looking forward to taking it out for quail. . .
How'd a block of jello get in your pajamas, Gewehr98?
Wait. On second thought, I don't want to know...
Tam: Yep, sooper-seekrit Extreme Special Warrior ammunition using "blended metal" technology for the .410 revolvers, coming in 5, 4, 3, 2, ...
Made of 100% Failite... [eyeroll]
re: The B-o-T test:
"There were bbs in the 1st and 2nd jugs, and the discs were in the 2nd and 3rd jug, for a maximum penetration of 6 to 9 inches."
Later on in that same test, the BoT put PDX in a 28" barreled .410, with results of 12 to 15 inches of equivalent penetration, including a double layer of denim in front.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53_4.htm
The PDX (and other .410 rounds) might just prove to be enough.
I'm waiting for someone either foolhardy or with a big wallet and a long string to try shooting .410 "cut shells" through a judge/raging judge/copy of a taurus
(not that I think it will magically top a .45 Colt as a defensive round, not to mention the potential to lock the cylinder if you try holstering a revolver with a cut shell)
So... it's a factory dime load?
Might be good on Werewolves if the dimes were pre-65
I figure the Judge is just a slightly more bulky .45 Colt.
Just as once upon a time I reloaded .45 ACP from cut down .308 Winchester brass (building up slowly from very low levels) one might consider reloading some cut down .307 Winchester rimmed brass, to get some high strength .45 Colt +P...
Well when you shoot buckshot out of the judge the shot balls actually hit each other with such force they flatten themselves. I saw that on box o truth.
It's things like this that make me wonder why the cartridge companies didn't just make a 2.5" shell for the .410 with a double-weight slug. Instead of the 1/4 and 1/5 ounce slugs, how about a nice 1/2 ounce slug at 1250-1350 fps? That would be good enough for my old Iver-Johnson .410 and the companies could still market them as "defense loads."
wv: habom. Habib with his semtex underoos and matching vest.
There is certainly one place where the Judge with PDX rounds would be a decent home defense choice: The other side of the wall in your hallway is your neighbor's bedroom.
Michael Bane said something to the effect of "Anybody want to volunteer to stand in front of a PDX round to the face to prove what a bad choice it is?"
So plainly they're best off in a .410 Saiga with a custom 50 round drum*?
(*I... might not be able to resist buying that, if it existed.
I won't pretend it's sensible, though.)
SoupOrMan, They do make a 1/2oz slug doing 1250-1350fps. They call it a 41RM.
Having spent a considerable amount of time patterning .410 loads now; the best patterns I've gotten have been with Winchester's old fashioned 000 buck loads.
The patterns I've seen out of Judge pistols were just a joke; but out of an 18 inch shotgun I've been surprised at how well the various .410 rounds hold a target.
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