More than 15 round magazines need to be in your possession as of the effective date (sometime this summer). Since most magazines have no date or number, not sure how you can identify which magazine, of your many, was a pre-July 2013 magazine versus an otherwise undated, identically looking magazine?I think I can answer this: Your magazines will be obviously pre-ban and legal if you are over thirty, white, clean cut, no priors, valid tags and insurance, polite to the officer, and sober. (And they're not trying to get you for something else at the time, in which case it will be used as a "piling on" charge by the prosecutor.)
Sunday, February 17, 2013
The grandfather conundrum...
With Colorado looking certain to get their 15-round mag limit passed, a poster on pistol-forum.com raised a question applicable to any state that has a magazine capacity limit and a grandfather exception for old mags:
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Or you're a conservative, you've advocated respect for the 2A, you've quoted the Founding Fathers in public ...
Because that would make you a domestic terrorist, and then it would be OK to storm your house and shoot you dead, or just burn your house down with you in it.
...and that's exactly how all of these things are going to work.
Oddly enough, PMags can be easily dated, those little circles of numbers with the arrow are date codes.
Wondering where Magpul's going to move...
Yes. But the suffering of decent folks in the future doesn't outweigh the blissful feeling of righteousness enjoyed by the legislators RIGHT NOW, so it is all worth it.
I'm hard pressed to figure how we shouldn't go all Christoper Dorner on anyone who questions possession of a previously-legally-purchased-and-owned semi-auto rifle or magazines of any particular size.
Yes, I understand Dorner was of potentially questionable mental status, and potentially deserving of some degree of competent and non-biased psychotherapy, but that does not mean the rest of us are in the same boat just because we understand the English language and can read the U.S. Constitution.
Anonymouse 9:19,
By "go Christopher Dorner", do you mean support magazine limits and 'assault weapon' bans, or turn into a cowardly back-shooter of innocents?
Dorner was an evil murderer who had no valid reason to kill his victims. When, however, someone starts fighting back against violations of their constitutional rights in righteous self defense, they will likely be killed just as dead by the trigger-happy Barney Fifes as he was. As ineffective as the soapbox and the ballot box have seemed lately, I hope the time for the cartridge box has not yet arrived.
Imagine how much less dead Dorner's victims would be had he only had 15 round magazines. Extend it even further, and imagine the first 15 kids shot at Columbine or Sandy Hook who would still be alive, because apparently the first 15 rounds in a 30 round magazine are ineffective on children.
Steve Skubinna,
"Extend it even further, and imagine the first 15 kids shot at Columbine..."
Ironically, the weapon from which the majority of the shots at Columbine were fired was a Hi-Point carbine, whose 10-rd magazines are totally ban-compliant.
The latest version of the bill has the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove it was a post banner. So unless there's a receipt in your wallet or a post-July of '13 date stamp on the offending implement, then the DA likely won't try to prosecute.
That doesn't mean the cop won't arrest ya, cause you to spend a decent chunk of bail money, & get denied for any background checks (if it's a 3rd offense - our "baby brady" uses arrests with no positive disposition as a disqualifier, & sometimes they're slow to enter "declined to prosecute" into the system.
Oh, I almost forgot - lawyering up to get your mags back from the cops.
Race, age, etc. will have no bearing in the city & county of Denver, or Aurora, or Boulder, & some of the burbs in betwixt & around. & don't prssume cops in those locales to be able to count to 15 or over - so a 12 rounder might have to get cleared up at the arraignment ("looked like 16 to me sarge").
I don't see many deputies (outside of Denver) bothering to count rounds in a mag let alone think about hauling someone in for it, unless said someone was doing 90 in a school zone while smoking a joint/drinking from an open bottle of Jack.
Another one that ain't getting much news is changing the definition of a deadly weapon to any firearm. Currently it has to be used or intended to be used to cause harm or death. If I didn't know they were trying to crush our culture I'd chalk it up to a drinking game. Talk about "piling on" charges - jaywalking with a deadly weapon - libel with a deadly weapon - public nudity with a deadly weapon - writing a bad check with a deadly weapon - littering with a deadly weapon - overdue library book charges with a deadly weapon...
"Since most magazines have no date or number, not sure how you can identify which magazine, of your many, was a pre-July 2013 magazine versus an otherwise undated, identically looking magazine? Someone traveling thru the state is supposed to know which magazines are legal, and which not, looking at an unmarked magazine?"
"Ooh! Ooh! Mista Kotter! I know! ... Registration!"
"Imagine how much less dead Dorner's victims would be had he only had 15 round magazines."
Imagine how much less bodywork would be necessary on that newspaper carrier's pickup. Or the newspaper carriers.
"Your magazines will be obviously pre-ban and legal if you are over thirty, white, clean cut, no priors, valid tags and insurance, polite to the officer, and sober."
Anecdotally, I think those qualifiers are when the mags would be considered post-ban and illegal. Several decades, When I lived in Massachusetts, there were billboards about the law that having an unregistered weapon was an automatic year in jail. Yet it seemed that the "automatic" part only applied to those with a clean record, people with records of violence and prior firearm convictions almost always walked out of court with at most a parole.
whose 10-rd magazines are totally ban-compliant.
Oh, come on Tam, show some sense. If that were the case, those children would still be alive.
I would think there is some of this issue already present in states that maintain a silly mag ban, like Massachusetts.
To butcher a JayG quote comparing pre-ban legal mags to current no-ban mags: "Sig mags haven't changed, Beretta mags haven't changed, Glock mags haven't changed. When the rest of the country came to their senses and took that "LEO Only" stamp off the mags there is no way to tell old and legal from new and illegal anymore."
Glock even said their pre-ban mags and current production mags are identical. If the factory can't tell them apart, how can the cops/prosecutor/judge if not for the standard provided above. Clean cut, current tags and insurance, etc.
Magpul might be planning a move, but doncha know they're cranking it 25/8 right now...
The original Dorner point, I think, was mistaken. The point the writer was TRYING to make, I think, is that if the cops go gun-grabbing, it will NOT go well, and after the first massacre of innocents after cops stormed a gun owners house. . . . that cops WILL be hunted, and if a single cop-killer tied the LAPD up in knots, imagine what would happen if 10-20 gun owners per county went grabber-hunting. . .
Cop-killing fantasies aside, proving that a hi-cap mag was bought post-ban, unless you're dumb enough to buy it FROM a police officer, is impossible to prove.
Burden of proof lies with the prosecution. You don't have to prove when you acquired it, THEY have to prove when you acquired it, and with rare exception that's impossible.
The law prevents stores from selling them, which is the real point of the whole thing.
I offered to be the test case for the Minnesota law to the boss. We manufacture AR's. I work the jail Christian retreats and have found them to be very respectful in the units to people of strong faith. Especially people of strong faith who run 250 pounds with hands the size of small hands.
The molded dates on pmags look a lot like aiming marks for a 1/4" bit in a drill press. There is supposed to be a mark there? Really?
Hams
Worked a booth at the Tanner Gun Show in Denver Saturday with an attorney who spent 12 hours listening to the bs downtown Friday. He had a chance to speak against the bills. He's hearing all new mags will probably need to be date-stamped and, perhaps, have a serial number.
Interesting day - little and or no ammo. A brick of 550 .22s going for $100.
About Columbine: the killers expected to blow up about everyone and just shoot anyone who could get out. The girl who did some straw purchases was never jailed, just called in to give testimony against the killers - and guns. OldeForce
He's hearing all new mags will probably need to be date-stamped and, perhaps, have a serial number.
For mags manufactured outside Colorado? Fat chance. A manufacturer is going to re-tool just to meet Colorado law, when they can't sell them in Colorado anyway?
The surest way to date the mag in a gun is to prove the gun was purchased pre ban.All a judge has to do is demand proof of purchase for the gun and did it come with one or two mags in the box . Anything else is suspect.
Glenn
"Your magazines will be obviously pre-ban and legal if you are over thirty, white, clean cut, no priors, valid tags and insurance, polite to the officer, and sober."
Yeah, keep thinking that....
TheRock,
"Yeah, keep thinking that...."
I can see you have a problem with politeness, son. No, I don't want to see your receipt for those magazines, show it to the judge.
You can beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
@Tanksoldier
"Burden of proof lies with the prosecution."
Pardon me if I seem rude by this, but what's the weather like on your planet?
The burden of proof is far too often satisfied by a costumed tax feeder pointing his or her sanctified finger at a citizen in an accusatory manner. Guilt or innocence is immaterial. Regardless of at whom the finger points, they are going to get entangled in the judicial machine and have something taken from them, be it their property, their liberty, or their life. Prosecutors, lawyers and judges all get a piece of the action. For them, the verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty" only determines which of the three gets the biggest slice of the pie.
Putting your faith in a system like that is the worst kind of foolishness, especially when dealing with laws written with such vague language as they seem almost designed to be abused.
If only profiling could/would be used in enforcement of idiotic laws, most of us (and not just the white folks) could/would be left alone to go about our bidness.
Alas, TSA is the more likely model.
Brownells didn't start making AR magazines until GBR II, which was fairly recently and I can't have 'em in CA except as a disassembled "rebuild kit"...
Uh, anyone realize that if they do get "Compliant" Mags, the Mags themselves might have to be Registered?
Ze link no worky for me. Looks like the forum admin has IP banned all non-USA IPs. (I got a message that I was IP banned by the forum admin, never been there before).
Mikael,
"Looks like the forum admin has IP banned all non-USA IPs."
I don't think it's that, because they have lots of members that post from overseas. (Including a South African IPSC contingent.)
Is your next door neighbor a spammer, maybe? :D
Not that I'm aware of, and even so, every IP is unique, why would my unique IP be banned if I never connected to the site before? I live in Sweden, and get my high speed internet through a private company using the city's network, by fiberoptic connection. Is my city banned? My country perhaps?
I've never done an IP ban on a forum, but I know they can ban by blocs of IP addresses; I doubt that Sweden is locked out.
It's a good forum for pistol-shooting techniques, especially for competition-oriented stuff. You should email the admins if you'd like to participate!
Hmm. Looks like I would be in trouble there. I'm over thirty, white, scruffy-looking, no priors (except for having a dossier at the local cop shop as a cop-hater) , am always polite to the officer, but rarely sober.
"I think I can answer this: Your magazines will be obviously pre-ban and legal if you are over thirty, white, clean cut, no priors, valid tags and insurance, polite to the officer, and sober."
And as long as you don't talk yourself into an arrest/prosecution.
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