Thursday, March 17, 2011

Know nukes.

Someone who knows a bit about radioactive clouds explains why Chernobyl II is not going to be happening, concluding his post with:
Instead of spending money on potassium iodide tablets, how's about writing a check to the relief fund of your choice to help the folks on the other side of the Pacific who have no electricity, no food, no water, no shelter, and need to get their lives back on an even keel after witnessing so much death and destruction? You'll feel better, honest.

Meanwhile, in an editorial at CNN, one Patrick Doherty, director of the Smart Strategy Initiative at the New America Foundation, says that the Deepwater Horizon and Fukushima I incidents prove that we should move away from our dependence on oil and nukes and build our infrastructure in a way that is dependent on toxic heavy metals controlled by foreign powers with all the environmental concern of the old Warsaw Pact, and which doesn't work on still and cloudy days. Mr. Doherty's engineering credentials for designing this new infrastructure are impressive:
Before returning to Washington, Mr. Doherty spent ten years in the Middle East, Africa, the Balkans and the Caucuses working at the intersection of conflict and development. He served as Catholic Relief Services' European Regional Advisor for Peacebuilding, as a consultant to the Organization of African Unity, and advised the Israeli and the Palestinian Authority's education ministries. He also taught African politics at the University of the Witwatersrand. Mr. Doherty holds a master's degree in security studies from the Fletcher School, Tufts University, where he co-founded the Institute for Human Security, and a bachelor's degree from the School of International Service at American University.
You know, if he'd had a fine arts degree, I could at least think he'd operated something as technical as a kiln or had maybe gotten a rudimentary knowledge of chemistry by mixing pigments...

Meanwhile, in comments to an earlier post, reader docjim505 asks:
My grandfather ... worked at Oak Ridge during World War II and was exposed to beryllium and perhaps other things. He died of cancer at the age of 86. Did his exposures from forty years earlier cause the cancer? Or was it that he smoked most of his life AND worked variously as a coal miner and textile mill worker? Or did his heart disease, diabetes and plain old age do him in? How does one make that determination?
Well, that depends. Who are you getting your grant money from?
.

69 comments:

Cybrludite said...

Given the content of the Palestinian school systems curriculum, why should any reasonable person give the slightest bit of credence to what this cretin says? Seriously, their textbooks makes Der Sturmer look like a Gran'pa Jack pamphlet by comparison...

docjim505 said...

NO FAIR! NO FAIR! You're not s'pposed to actually research the background of the experts presented to us by the other experts in MiniTru! This guy is an EXPERT, I tell you! Layers and layers of editors and fact-checkers at CNN say so! So, just shut up, take what he says as the ultimate and irrefutable (dare I say "gospel"?) Truth, and DO WHAT HE SAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!

/ sarc

It would be of some interest to ask the clowns at CNN why they thought that asking a man with no science or engineering background to comment on a scientific / engineering question would be a good idea. Do they ask physicists to comment on abortion? Mechanical engineers to comment on the federal budget?

Sheesh...

McVee said...

As this drama unfolds I honestly cant say I know for certain what will or wont happen on mainland JP but I will say this, I know more about the various types of reactors, portable pumps, water jet shooting helo's etc than I ever thought I would.
Good stuff, thanks for sharing!

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

Your expert is more full of shit than a stuffed Christmas Turkey!

Skullz said...

So. He's got a more impressive resume than the leader of the free world.

Tam said...

SPHINCTER of Deflation,

You got a lot of wedgies and swirlies as a kid, didn't you?

Anonymous said...

Ya and you wore boys Hanes Tammy which restricted your bloodflow to your itty bitty brain. That's a big gun in your photo. Have you been dating long?

Retardo said...

He was standing at the intersection of Conflict and Development twirling his purse and asking sailors to buy him a drink.

Tam said...

Thought so. :)

Boat Guy said...

"Well, that depends. Who are you getting your grant money from?"
There's the question that so rarely gets asked...
I'd druther have a Mechanical Engineer comment on the Federal Budget than Bernanke or Geithner; an ME would probably ask a cogent question and insist on a rational answer based on logic and fact...

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

Hey Tammy, read this clueless. 16 seconds and you are dead asshat!:

Workers at Chernobyl could work on the roof of the plant, where there were insane levels of radiation for a minute and a half...

[link to www.bloomberg.com]

Radiation is also leaking from spent fuel rods stored in a pool near reactors No. 3 and No. 4. Water in the pool has evaporated due to radioactive heat, exposing the uranium- containing rods to the atmosphere. The exposed rods can emit radiation and give out radioactive iodine and cesium, both of which are cancer-causing agents.

A worker at the edge of the pool would receive a fatal radiation dose in 16 seconds, said David Lochbaum, a nuclear physicist for the Union of Concerned Scientists and a former Nuclear Regulatory Commission safety instructor.

Mark said...

Words of Heinlein ring true again TANSTAAFL.

Anonymous said...

40 years worth of spent fuel rods at the site, and you say no big deal. You are a moron/moran and that goes for your expert as well who is as clueless as yourself.

Tam said...

Are you even reading what anybody's written here, or are you just reading what you THINK they've written?

From your comments, I know what my guess is...

tickmeister said...

I got an idea. Those of you who are determined to die of a massive radiation dose go ahead and do it. Then maybe the survivors can return to a rational discussion.

I'm going to go see if the ground is dry enough to plant onions. I'll check back in a day or so and see how it turns out.

Stretch said...

"Mr. Doherty spent ten years in the Middle East, Africa, the Balkans and the Caucuses working at the intersection of conflict..."
And after 10 years those regions are vacation hot spots for ALL the Cool People.

"... a consultant to the Organization of African Unity..."
Consultant? I see Dogbert.

"... and advised the Israeli and the Palestinian Authority's education ministries."
Am sure that will get him hired in Wisconsin post haste.

Geeze, this man's C.V. has more FAIL than Robert McNamara's.

Tam said...

tickmeister,

Doesn't anybody here want to die of a massive radiation overdose.

As a matter of fact, the guy I linked to risked his ass in a plane to try and keep people from dying of massive radiation overdoses.

Hope your onions do well! :)

theirritablearchitect said...

Tam, you sure know how to kick over the right rocks!

Anonymous said...

Did you happen to see that #4 now has no roof? It now has nothing but the steel framework standing. This happened overnight brainiacs. Tammy knows jack shit concerning this subject, and I would question where her view from the porch is actually located. I'm thinking an institution for the mentally unstable.

perlhaqr said...

Tam, you sure know how to kick over the right rocks!

I hope they worm their way back under, soon. Being invaded by trolls is amusing for about the first 30 seconds, but by day two it really starts to wear thin.

------

SPARKLE of Ponydom: Fine, you're right, we're wrong. We promise to start panicking and shitting our pants real soon now. So, your work here being done, feel free to go spread your message in other comments sections. I promise it won't be very long before we clutch our hair and scream.

Tam said...

"Did you happen to see that #4 now has no roof?"

Have you read anything here? You know, about how hydrogen gas from the... Oh, never mind.

Quick! Go take a lot of Potassium Iodide!

Robb Allen said...

Sadly, ignorance has a half life longer than the predicted age of the universe and then some, so trolls are always going to be a problem.

I wonder if wrapping myself up in tin foil slathered with SPF100 will protect me from the fallout of these idiots?

Anonymous said...

No need to take anything Tammers, but it would be oh so nice to see that you are grounded in the real world and not the surreal porch where you pour forth your bullshit. I'm gonna start calling you clueless in Poedunk.

Tam said...

Gosh, I'm all tore up by that.

Anonymous said...

I have read your blog for some time, and never had the urge to comment on your assinine postings, but holding yourself out as some kind of expert regarding what is happening in Japan cannot go unanswered. You and your rather small band of clowns know jack shit concerning anything to do with the multiple nuclear debacles in Japan. Clueless in Poedunk suits you well.

docjim505 said...

Boat Guy - I'd druther have a Mechanical Engineer comment on the Federal Budget than Bernanke or Geithner; an ME would probably ask a cogent question and insist on a rational answer based on logic and fact...

Right there with you. I tend to quietly (and sometimes loudly) sneer at liberal arts types because so many of them seem to have no knowledge of this "logic and fact" of which you speak. I suppose it comes from too many years of writing essays about "what do you think the author was trying to say?" rather than "solve for x".

Anyway, we know that engineers know how to add and subtract, which puts them MILES ahead of the morons running our government.

With regard to the story of the hour (whether we like it or not, apparently!), I see from NHK's website that the JSDF have finished dumping water into reactor #3. Stories coming out of Japan are confused, and small wonder: it's not like people can just stroll into the reactor buildings, have a good look 'round, take a few pics for the old scrapbook, and come out to a calm collection of highly-informed journalists who want a detailed report of the technical facts. I recall the confusion after the recent Tucson shooting, and that was a helluva lot simpler than the situation in Japan.

I'm sure that the Japanese authorities are also weighing just what to say because they must balance the needs of keeping their people fully informed with the need to keep them from panicking and making their own situations worse. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that there will be a KI tablet shortage and people in Japan who MAY really need it will be unable to get it because people who DON'T need it (including panicked Americans thousands of miles away) bought it all up.

Oh, by the way: people have died in a Japanese emergency shelter from a want of proper medical supplies and trained personnel. Again, let's keep the problems in perspective: there are people in danger of death RIGHT NOW from mundane things like dehydration, exposure, hunger and sepsis; radiation sickness, outside of a relative handful of people, is a VERY minor concern just now.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/17_13.html

Tam said...

docjim505,

"For example, I wouldn't be surprised to find that there will be a KI tablet shortage and people in Japan who MAY really need it will be unable to get it because people who DON'T need it (including panicked Americans thousands of miles away) bought it all up."

In a happy coincidence, I seem to recall that kelp is an excellent natural source of Potassium Iodide...

tickmeister said...

Lest my comment be mis-interpreted, I didn't think anybody was seeking death. But I have heard that radiation is good for curing cancer and trolls.

As an aside, I recieved radiation treatment for an ear infection back in the 1950's. That involved a dude in a lead apron inserting a small module containing radium into my nose for a few minutes. $20 bucks a pop, big money to my dad back then. Who knows what it did to my brain, but I still can't hear with my right ear.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tammers (Clueless in Poedunk) here's a video for ya stooge:

Video - Up Close Fly over of Japan's Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant Shows Reactor 3 and 4 Containment Vessels open



http://www.ksbw.com/r/27221999/detail.html

Robb Allen said...

Link is to damage to a 40 foot section of Highway 1 in California.

Why am I not surprised that a large pothole looks like a nuclear reactor to you?

theirritablearchitect said...

Wow. BatshitinsaneAnon just isn't getting it, is he?

Jim said...

You wouldn't mind putting moderation on for a day or two until this kid goes back to his homework or whatever?

Jim

Anonymous said...

Hey Tammers (Clueless in Poedunk), here's pictures from Chernobyl from 2 years ago, and what was I thinking, as it looks like a real paradise over there just like your merry band of clowns said. Group tours, festivals and a taste of the good life. Jackasses! More than 2 decades later, the entire area is uninhabitable you bunch of morons/morans!


Chernobyl Today: A Creepy Story told in Pictures

http://villageofjoy.com/chernobyl-today-a-creepy-story-told-in-pictures/

Tam said...

Jim,

"You wouldn't mind putting moderation on for a day or two until this kid goes back to his homework or whatever?"

He can post what he wants; he's not bothering me. :)

Sincerely,
Clueless in Poedunk[sic]

Retardo said...

It's just like when Bertrand Russell was debating Frederick Copleston, and Copleston said "well duh if I spell 'Podunk' wrong tahjt mens ur a dumy!" and Russell conceded the whole debate right then and there.

Anonymous said...

Jim blow me loser. All of you really should STFU because you know not what you are talking about dipshit!! The bunch of you sitting around doing the circle jerk while Japan deals with the real deal is disgusting. You know nothing ya bunch of morons!

Anonymous said...

hang in there SPECTRE of Deflation.
Don't let them harsh your panic.

...Meanwhile almost 900 nuclear bombs have been exploded on the western half of the lower 48 in the last half century and there are giant mutant cockroaches busily gnawing on the tips of my two left tentacles.

NOTE to self: eat more bananas...and Alar.

WV: dinga
A female Dingo

Anonymous said...

retardo, you might want to do a search on Poedunk which was a 1930s term for hick, and you should know smartass!

Anonymous said...

1. Why are you letting him use the racist term "poedunk"? Just to highlight his racism?

2. Why does he think the Japanese reactors are similar to the Soviet reactors?

This is further proof that L. Neil Smith is correct, leftists are afraid of fire.

Shootin' Buddy

theirritablearchitect said...

SB,

It's so bad, it's almost comical.

LawDog said...

Fortunately, sanity and cooler heads are starting to prevail:

LA Times

Potassium Iodide not needed, not recommended

Nuclear Regulatory Commission

CDC

No danger past fifty (50) miles, more radiation danger in United States on aircraft flight from New York to Los Angeles -- pretty much what people have been saying here.

Some people, anyway.

Hey, there's a nice bit of information about Chernobyl and Three Miles Island in the first article, too!

LawDog

Kristopher said...

SPHINCTER of Ludd is going to be so disappointed when he doesn't get to watch the giant mutant cockroaches battle with the colander-faced Road Warriors for supremacy over the radioactive wastelands.

Kristopher said...

Oh, and I think I have found the rules set SPHINCTER is using for his internet debates ....

Bubblehead Les. said...

Anyone out there have to spend months at a time wearing Film Badges and Dosimeters besides me? Good. This may not make me a Harvard School of Gooberment Socialist Asshat who claims to know EVERYTHING, but having ate, slept, drank and defecated next to a Nuke Reactor for weeks at a time, never getting more than 300 FEET away at MAXIMUM, I think I'm "Expert" enough to talk about this issue. Now, Spectre of Destruction, when you start quoting info from the Union of Concerned Scientists, you reveal yourself to be part of the same No Nuke, Tree Hugging, Earth First, Prius driving pack of fools who want to DESTROY Western Civilization and bring about a Marxist Utopia that would leave this planet populated with about 500,000 of your closest like-minded Fellow Travelers, such as Al Gore, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and B.Hussein Obama. Too bad the People's Republic of China and Tzar Putin have different views about what their long term goals are, but I'm sure you'll cross that bridge when you come to it (as THEY tie a rope around your neck and toss you over the side, you Useful Idiot)! The only questions I have are these: A.) Do you have to pay for the High Speed Internet to receive your Marching Orders from the White House, or does the Union pick up the tab? B.) How was it Shitting in the Wisconsin State House without Toilet Paper? Or were those Union Printed Placards soft enough to allow you to blow your nose and wipe your butt, since those of you out there with your head up your ass can do both at the same time.

For the GrownUps in the Audience, Nuclear Safety comes down to 3 simple steps : Time, Distance, and Shielding. Minimize your exposure Time, Maximize your Distance, Maximize your Shielding. See Keeney's "Nuclear War Survival Skills" for details. It's FREE to download from various sites. But be warned! Exposure to too many FACTS at one time may cause a PinHeaded Earth Firster Brain to explode, so watch out for Cranial Matter Ejection! Inhalation of that stuff will DEFINITELY reduce your I.Q. Level. Heck, get enough of that crap in your system, you might end up working at CNN (if your Cleavage is large enough)!

Tam said...

Shootin' Buddy,

"1. Why are you letting him use the racist term "poedunk"? Just to highlight his racism?"

I like it when idiots advertise their idiocy. Especially when they compound it by confusing "poe dunk" and "podunk"...

Anonymous said...

"working at the intersection of conflict and development."

You got to love that line. It's going on my resume for sure.

Gerry

Jim said...

Jim blow me loser.

OT, but if all you have are personal attacks, you don't have much.

Jim

Retardo said...

Ano, I see the only "authority" for "oe" in "Podunk" is the Urban Dictionary, except it says the word refers to a person, not a place. You kept saying "in". So you googled your misspelling after the fact.

Next, your source for the "containment vessel" breaching business is some weird, semi-intelligible foreclosure-panic blogger who's been diagnosing the reactors by eyeballing fuzzy news footage herself. P.S. she doesn't know what an atom is. She also posted "A Real photo from 1916 - showing an Angel in the Sky".

So I'm glad you're on the job, letting the world know who the really RELIABLE sources of information are.

Maybe the angel's dropping boric acid on the gaping empty space between your hairy little ears.

tickmeister said...

A Poe dunk would be something to see, as he was only 5'4".

Ancient Woodsman said...

One more day of thanks to Tam for being gracious enough to host this stuff.

While not my primary job, I've been detailed to our EOC for many RERP sessions, trainings, exercises, and even a few real deals over the last few decades, so yes, I've worn a few dosimeters in my day. Nothing near as exciting as some of the .mil guys here, but I do know a few things about RERP and personal preparedness about such situations.

Some of the stuff here is pretty good but that's mostly from folks that have been around here for a while. The rest of the stuff is simply evidence that it must be spring break somewhere. 'Anonymous' means nothing to me; I wonder how many folks have had the turkey at Sphinctre's house?

I also wonder how many of the alarmists have a year's worth of food & water set aside? Or even a few months? Weeks? Days? No? How baout some KI? Or not having such preparations - as everyone should - is perhaps the reason why certain juveniles are coming here to have their tantrums?

Well, it's been entertaining at least.

Ancient Woodsman said...

OMG, tickmeister wins today!

docjim505 said...

LawDog - [With regard to buyin gKI tablets] No danger past fifty (50) miles, more radiation danger in United States on aircraft flight from New York to Los Angeles -- pretty much what people have been saying here.

Not that I disagree, but you really oughtn't post things like this as it opens you up to being an ignorant poedunkadunk or something like that.

;-)

Anyway, between the .gov and MiniTru yapping about KI (saw a whole story about it on CNN this morning), I'm sure that some people will be rushing out to stockpile it, just as they rushed out to stockpile Cipro and ill-fitting surplus chemical suits and gas masks several years ago. It's the modern-day equivalent of buying a piece of the real, genuine, authentic Cross to ward off evil spirits. I recall that the company I worked for at the time made face masks; we sold out even though our masks were not even remotely rated for keeping buggies out of one's lungs (actually, they were for people working in electronics cleanrooms and intended to protect the electronics parts from the person, not protect the person from much of anything). Yet, we couldn't make 'em fast enough.

Meh.

Bubblehead Les. said...

NEWS FLASH! JUST HITTING THE WIRES! As of 10 Minutes ago, Our Fearless Leader, the Anoited One, Comrade B. Hussein Obama decreed 2 items of interest for the Masses: 1.) There is NO DANGER of Dangerous Levels of Radioactivity reaching the People's Republics of Soregon, Wishy-Washington and Kalifornia this weekend. 2.) No one should be using Potassium Iodide unless directed to by the People's Committee of Disease Control. So, Sphincter of Distraction, it is perfectly safe for you and your Tree Hugger Cronies to Chain yourself to the gates of your local Nuclear Pile of Doom this weekend w/o fear of being melted from a Japanese Rain Cloud.

As for the Grown-ups among us, can we now focus on REAL News, such as whether or not Charlie Sheen can keep his sons in his Drug-Filled Porn Palace?

Bubblehead Les. said...

And Cleavage. Definitely Cleavage.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how many alarmists have degrees in Biology, Chemistry or Physics, instead of degrees in Folk History, Jazz History, Modern Dance or _______ Studies?

Liberals not only fear fire, but exams in classes which have a right or wrong answer.

Shootin' Buddy

Anonymous said...

Your so-called expert has egg on his face already as, a small number of people in Japan are now exhibiting symptoms of radiation sickness.
Tokyo is emptying out of tourist and foreigners. All of the experts that I have heard lecture on this are stating it has the potential to be much bigger insult than the Soviet ordeal.

Hold onto your boonie!

Geodkyt said...

Shootin' Buddy,

How many alarmists have had careers -- not unpaid internships filing papers for a month, not the Honorary Junior Deputy Assistant Fire Chief hat they got to wear for the city Kid's Day, but careers -- working in fields where, if stuff didn't work right (and sometimes, even when it did), people died?

Damned few, I'll bet.

Terry said...

*looks at spectre of anon 4:28 and giggles*

We can see right through you.

theirritablearchitect said...

Anon keeps missing the point...and he's too stupid to know it.

staghounds said...

1. College Boy Doherty can't spell "Caucasus" correctly on his OWN RESUMÉ.

2. Back on topic, we don't select our Masters to worry about Chinamen.

Dr. StrangeGun said...

Huh. I wore a film badge for years and worked in an area where if I scratch this old tabletop it's an asbestos release, and bumping that old placard-festooned vent pipe hard enough would net a mean case of berylliosis, no to mention the little flagged areas on campus here and there with "thou shalt not dig unless thy will is to glow in the dark". Strangely, I'm not concerned at all about the Japanese nuclear disaster affecting us.

That said, Anonymous, ... you're funny, mister. Maybe you ought to try that stand-up schtick at a biker bar, I bet you'll go over like a riot.

loren said...

"Mr. Doherty......... co-founded the Institute for Human Security."
As in he and another guy(with some money) rented an office that had a shared secretary, then got some stationary order. They then hired a publicist and started sending out media releases. Same as 90 some % of the other "think tanks" in the asshole of the world.

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

Radiation detected in Texas and Illinoise. And I haven't heard anything from contacts in either states. We can assume 100% losses. I don't know how you can come to any other conclusion. Nothing but rad-roaches now. You're right next door, Tam! Flee, or seek shelter!

We're through the looking glass, people.

Dr. StrangeGun said...

I bet that when it's all said and done, I can give my smoke detector a good hearty hug and receive a greater radiation dose than I'll see from Japan. Or have a meal off some nice yellow fiestaware. Or stun-gun some tungsten. Wear a tritium watch for a day. Take a cross-country flight. etc.etc.etc

Hat Trick said...

NJT, quit fanning the flames. ;-)
That story means nothing without a report of quantities of radioactive material. Crates of bananas trip those detectors all the time. Look up banana equivalent dose.

StrangeGun, the orange fiestaware is hotter. Include bananas in your meal and you'll actually receive a quantifiable dose.

YoelB said...

I work in an integrative pharmacy and the panic about potassium iodide has been something to see. A lot of magical thinking that KI will protect you from "radiation". Not exactly. By pretty well saturating your thyroid with non-radioactive iodine, it'll keep your thyroid from concentrating the radioiodine you swallow, breathe in or absorb through your skin. That'll lower your risk of developing thyroid cancer down the road.

And while kelp is a reasonable dietary source of iodine, it isn't going to give you what the CDC recommends taking if you need protection from radioiodine. The maximum iodine consumption we suggest for people not instructed to take more by a doctor is 1.1 mg/d. The CDC is recommending 130 mg/d of KI (the equivalent of about 100 mg/d of iodine) for adults, less for kids. That dosing is for no more than 2 weeks. Basically, it's intended to suppress the intake of radioactive iodine until you can get out of the contaminated area.

Since the half life of I131 is about 8 days, assuming there isn't ongoing new contamination, the 2 weeks would see your risk go down to a bit more than 1/4 of the original level. If that level is safe to live with so that you're not supposed to evacuate, the initial contamination wasn't that big to begin with.

Then there's the part about not taking it now. About 7-8% of the population is walking around making antibodies to their thyroid glands; almost none of them know it. Iodine intake at around 5 mg/d or so is known to flare up the autoimmune process in about half of such folks. Half of the people (not identical to the half just mentioned) who have autoimmune thyroid disease go on to have damage to other endocrine organs.

So the cost benefit goes: risk of disease and death from thyroid cancer vs risk of disease and death by increased incidence of serious autoimmune disease.

Speaking of trusting government and experts, has anyone seen the Bloomberg piece about corruption in the Japanese nuclear industry?

RRR said...

Hope this link will work for you.

the links and discussions are from those directly involved in the industry.

http://freedomtorch.com/forums/topic/4373/japans-nuculear-plants-real-i

If that one does not work then start at Black Five.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/03/japanese-reactors-update.html#comments

Thank You
Carry on..

Anonymous said...

"Well, that depends. Who are you getting your grant money from?"

LOL -- Lyle

Anonymous said...

UPDATE March 27---

Seems your "expert" has missed the mark, ever so slightly.