Tuesday, August 28, 2012

Haters gonna hate...

Apparently Andrew over at Vuurwapen Blog fired enough lo-bujit rounds through an AR midlength carbine in a short enough amount of time that the handguards burst into flame*.

So some people started slamming the MagPul MOE handguards.

Let me get this straight: He puts half a case of steel-cased Russkie ammo through the carbine in about as much time as it takes to play a Slipknot tune, and the handguards are defective because they caught fire?

Some people would bitch if you hanged them with a new rope...


*Raise your hand if you've ever melted or ignited the furniture on a long gun in the name of science. I have, but it was low-rent East Bloc hardware, back in the day when you could get an SKS and a case of ammo for not much more than dinner at Outback. Cosmoline smells like petroleum-soaked sweat socks when it burns, BTW.

43 comments:

Anonymous said...

I was not uncommon for a Ruger 14 or AKMs to start smoldering after a mad minute drill. That's typically about 120 rounds.

I can't believe quenching a hot barrel in water does anything to maintain accuracy but I'm not an engineer.

Gerry

Sherm said...

It is easy to find fault, if one has that disposition. There was once a man who, not being able to find any other fault with his coal, complained that there were too many prehistoric toads in it.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson

Anonymous said...

Snort.

I distinctly remember reading about German infantry on the eastern front in WWII having to retreat in front of Russian wave attacks "toot suite" because their MG42's barrels + spares ( remember these things are quick barrel change LMG's that rip through belts at something like 12-1500 rpm) were ALL glowing hot, simultaneously.

Some of the barrels got peed on to bring the LMG's back on line, which can't do them any good, but which I presume in a target rich environment is the least of your problems.

But it explains by everything front of the gun's breech area seems to be metal, the designers had obviously thought that through. The heat haze nust get wicked nasty though.




Anonymous said...

I did it to an H&K G3 once. Entertaining.

Well, okay. Technically it didn't catch fire, it just got all smoky and melty. Because then I stopped shooting.

Joel

Geodkyt said...

I've had an AK flare up after three RPK drums as fast as I could run them. (Yes, I was specifically trying to ignite the handguards -- figured the rest of the gun would survive, and handguards were getting replaced for poly ones anyway.)

Fired an M16A1 so heavily (all but teh first couple of mags were semi, even the auto fire was in 2-4 round bursts) that the slipring spring detempered and the handguards feww off. They were slightly charred at each end. I'm not even sure how many mags that was -- there was an ammo shipping crate of them, and I didn't stop shooting when the handguards came off; just switched to a mag-hold grip. (Yes, I was intentionally trying to destroy the rifle. It was the only way my armorer could DX a gun that had some "attitude problems" the depot level guys refused to admit. While I didn't stop and count mags, we had guys observing and logging stuff like that, and the S4 sergeant submitted it as destructive testing results. {grin})

ZerCool said...

At an Appleseed several years ago, I watched one of our shooters extinguishing the top handguard on his rifle after several RapidAQTs in a row.

... he was using a Mosin 91/30.

Matt G said...

Worth bookmarking for those who will tell you that an AR won't perform in nasty conditions. Hell, he turned his rifle into a frickin' percolator, and ran muddy water through its action and gas port twice, and got that much heat into the rifle that quickly.

But you just know that the doughboys had to listen to elder soldiers complain that an '03 Springfield was garbage, compared to a good ol' Krag. And the Krag was pretty good, but it didn't hold a candle to the Trapdoor!

Pakkinpoppa said...

Back when ammo was a lot less...and I still had stuff I'd bought at 80 a case, I burnt through a Chicom drum after 3 standard 30 rounders as fast as I could fire and reload.

The drum I used to saw down a tree, about a foot and a half in diameter, (which took 69 rounds I stopped when my hand slipped off the forend, and the metal was...pretty darn hot, at that moment the tree fell over).

The handguards didn't burst into flame, but I put the rifle down on the "tactical" rifle case to let it cool off, while I smoked a cigarette and loaded up something else, and it melted a barrel and front sight tower shape into the external mag pouches on the rifle case. Fortunately I smelled the melting plasticky smell and moved the rifle prior to it becoming more permanently attached to the case.

Ah...the days of 80 dollar 762x39, burning half of the case at the range...if I'd only saved half of what I turned into noise I'd have...um, a need for a forklift to move next time.

Just My 2¢ said...

This ought to occupy the hordes on Barfcom for days.

... And there's a good reason that many of our troopies wear Nomex flight gloves. A railed handguard may not catch fire, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get hot!

JD Rush said...

I don't know what is more fun, the actual destructive testing or the internet fighting over the results. I need some popcorn...

GuardDuck said...

Cheap ammo days, couple drums through a yugo RPK like device. Lots of smoke from the handguard area and burnt the piston.

Anonymous said...

If you fire more than 4-5 clips a min. out of the M-1 garand you can get it smokey.M-1903s CAN be fired more than 25 rd in a min. with stripper clips, but its not a good idea. The rifle WILL get to hot to hold. Trashing a wepon 'cause your stupid is......

LawDog said...

Anyone who hasn't burnt, or melted, or warped something on a rifle either isn't very serious about shooting, or has never had fun.

Woodman said...

Saw an M60 barrel start to droop and rounds start coming out of it funny... ( I took much better care of my SAW, I stopped when it started changing colors.)

Cracked a M203 tube trying to get 5 parachute flares in the air at once. I think we had put about 20 through it in the minutes leading up to that attempt.

Totally trashed a 1911 blowing tracer rounds through it. (AT-4 trainer rounds)

God I used to love and hate the end of the fiscal year when I was in the service.

If it hadn't been for shoot ex's I wouldn't have gotten to shoot a 202 flash either.

Kristopher said...

Tat is a feature, not a bug.

If your handguards are too hot to touch without leaving skin, you should consider lowering your rate of fire.

Joe in PNG said...

That's one of the reasons I want a Vickers. Not only does the water jacket keep it from bursting into flames, but one can also use it to brew up a nice cup of tea.

Murphy's Law said...

Shot an AR15A2 HBAR so fast once that, when it got too hot to hold and I leaned it against a buddy's new pick-up truck tire, it melted a small divot in the sidewall...Then he got even hotter. hee.

I also shoot an HK P7M13, so I'm used to handguns that get too hot to hold after a few rapid-fire strings.

Darrell said...

Heck, I ran one 20 rd mag rapid fire through a PTR91 and warped the skinny forearm that came on the rifle.

jimbob86 said...

"I have, but it was low-rent East Bloc hardware, back in the day when you could get an SKS and a case of ammo for not much...."

There may come a day when you wish you had that hardware and ammo back ....... let's hope not.


"Waste not, want not." comes to mind.

Tam said...

jimbob86,

"There may come a day when you wish you had that hardware and ammo back ..."

It ain't no good if you don't use it. ;)

Devynsdad said...

Back in the early nineties my ADA platoon took our entire contingent of nine Vulcan Cannons out to one of the artillery ranges with a 5,000 round load out apiece for a night fire exercise. By a couple of hundred rounds in only four of the guns were working... after a few thousand they were all broke but my squad's.

After about 10,000 rounds the grease from the cannon housing was running out like water and you could see the rounds zooming through the barrels. We went through something like 28,000 rounds over the course of a few hours, just taking breaks to reload and swap out gunners.

The next day when we broke the cannon down all of the innards were bone-dry but intact and the barrels were still in spec.

mustanger said...

I remember once I had redone the stock set on a K98k... I used TruOil... I ran four clips of Turkish 1935 slow fire... Hand guard got to smoking pretty good... No flames though.

fast richard said...

That's an impressive way to start a fire. I've never done that in the name of science, but I've burned myself on hot metal a time or two. "FIRE" arms get hot? That must mean they're defective ... or not.

Bram said...

There is a reason that machine guns are issued with spare barrels and asbestos gloves. Uncle Sam takes a very dim view of anyone melting his guns.

Lazy Bike Commuter said...

My response to that was "no, it was not a mistake for me to buy a Spike's Tactical AR last week." If they can do that and still function, I'd say it means they are pretty well made.

I didn't get a response to this when I posted there, but I wonder how much damage the extreme heat and sudden cooling does to the actual structure of the metal. I can easily imagine it destroying the temper or something.

TigerStripe said...

Never had any melt. I've had 'em get extremely hot with 600rds as fast as possible in semi with 30rd mags. I fail to see the point unless he was testing the quality/function of the upper. Or just having some fun...


TS

ToddG said...

For the record, I reserve the right to complain if hanged, regardless of the age of the rope used.

Ian Argent said...

One of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children that I have the honor of knowing once described (vividly) being able to see the tracers in the barrel of a Ma Deuce that he had gotten busy with during a spot of bother in the Sandbox with some disgruntled tourists.

DanH said...

I admit to being extremely jealous and wishing that I had the money to buy a nice AR and a bunch of ammo to try to reproduce this. After all, an experiment must be verified as repeatable. FOR SCIENCE!!

Ed Foster said...

I watched quad .50's fired so hot you could, I swear, blink your eyes and see the bullets going down the white, translucent barrels. The tracers were tumbling, so I imagine either the barrels were shot out or heated so oversize they weren't grabbing the projectiles worth a damn.

And for those who are old enough to remember the original plastic handguards on the M-14, do you remember the pleasure of scraping that crap off the barrel with a bayonet afterwards?

Kristopher said...

Oh, and those plastic handguards they put on the PTR-91 were still crap.

Get a set of wooden CETME stocks ( be careful about 922r compliance ). They will get hot enough to encourage you to stop the magdump before they burst into flames.

M said...

This stuff reminds me of Clark on THR, who used to systematically load progressively hotter handgun rounds until he blew up some nice handguns, intentionally. He documented it well. It was "for science." But it hurt to read about.

A buddy of mine is an army armorer who has occasionally has had to deal with the consequences of soldiers who have wanted to see what would happen when you de-linked a (high pressure) 40mm round from an M19, and fired it out of the (low pressure) M203 tube slung under their rifles.

He can't understand why a person would go to so much effort to modify a round so that he could get in trouble and trash a gun.

Justthisguy said...

I dunno about the hanging, but I would feel insulted to be shot with a Glock, even if I had it coming.

Another good reason to be polite to policemen.

Justthisguy said...

On settin' fire to yer piece:

Stephenson had a really cool passage about that in "Cryptonomicon" concerning how impressed Bobby Shaftoe was by the Vickers, it being liquid-cooled and having _infrastructure_.

Justthisguy said...

Having been warned by our hostess, and being conscious of that graph I saw at XKCD of wittiness vs. BAC, I think I'll leave y'all alone for a while, until I have more blood in my alcohol stream.

Darrell said...

Kristopher said...
Oh, and those plastic handguards they put on the PTR-91 were still crap.

Get a set of wooden CETME stocks ( be careful about 922r compliance ). They will get hot enough to encourage you to stop the magdump before they burst into flames.

Oh, I got a wide HK forearm w/bipod and replaced it. And yes, I had to put US made trigger, sear and hammer to get my parts count back under 922r.

Angus McThag said...

I killed a Ma Deuce by linking the entire allotment for the battalion's cooks into one belt and letting it rip from one gun.

Barrel drooped and got soft enough to get rounds exiting the side. Then it went runaway and we needed a screwdriver shoved between rounds to stop it.

Good times.

SSG in charge of our detail was PV1 a short time later. Me? Who am I, a mere E5 to tell and lordly E6 that his orders were a bad plan? Except I did and he overrode me so I told the privates to do what he said and to be careful...

It was also the last time the cooks demanded KP from the tank crews.

roland said...

Two 75 round drums through an already warm post sample ak, cyclic. Yeah, handguards were way past well done. Nothing broke, gun still runs.

Anonymous said...

Has it occured to anyone that flaming foregrip are a feature, not a bug.

Windy Wilson said...

"Great Flaming Foregrips!"
I learned a new swear word!

Justthisguy said...

Angus, you are a very bad person for having done that. I wish that I had been there to help you. I am so bad...

global village idiot said...

Part of the reason I never bought any of the old, tired Mosin-Nagants back when they were being sold by the pallet-load (I'm not referring to the arsenal refurbs being sold nowadays) was my only half-joking fear that the petroleum-soaked stock would burst into flames during a normal course of fire.

That and their bores were so shot out that the only thing the barrel/receiver were good for was to use as a breaker bar for the lug wrench on old deuce-and-a-half tires.

There are better and cheaper ways to start fires and loosen lug nuts.

gvi

perlhaqr said...

No fire, but I got an Ankara Mauser to smoke pretty good running surplus 8mm.