Monday, August 27, 2012

The Saga Continues...

Back in '05, the Indiana State Police traded in their Beretta 96G pistols for Glock 22s. The swap would have seemed a no-brainer, since the .40 caliber Berettas weren't known for their long service lives and the Glock 22 was pretty much the Standard American Cop Gun. The usual Tommy Lee Jones-esque nonsense was spouted:
Firearm instructor Ritch Reynolds says the new weapons can take a beating, "The Glock has proven or shown it can operate in any kind of environmental situation, freezing weather, snow, drop it in the sand, water, mud, bring it up and it will perform."
So it was more than a little embarrassing when the ISP Glock 22s turned out to be so problematic that they were withdrawn and replaced with Glock 17s within a year.

It's now six years later and there're tax dollars apparently burning a hole in someone's pockets here in Indianapolis, for the G17s have suddenly "reached the end of their service life" and are being replaced with .45 ACP pistols because God and John Wayne.

Indiana Staties will have the choice of carrying an issued Glock 21 or a privately-purchased .45 ACP firearm as long as it's one of the following models:
Glock 21SF
S&W M&P Mid Size
S&W M&P Full Size
Sig Sauer P220 Full Size
Sig Sauer P250 Full Size
Sig Sauer P260 Full Size
Sig Sauer P227 Full Size
Springfield XD Service Model
Springfield XD Tactical Model
Springfield XDM 4.5
Springfield XDM 5.25
Beretta Px4 Storm Full
I have no earthly idea what a SIG P260 or P227 is supposed to be, but knowing the way SIG's been run lately, it probably has to do with a rainbow anodized titanium finish, or something goofy laser-engraved on the top of the slide. I also find it odd that there isn't anything from You Suck And We Hate You, GmbH on the approved list.


Don said...

A P227 has portraits of the cast of the 1980's TV hit "227" laser-engraved on the slide. It's really quite a lovely tribute.

And it's still better than the "P226 Tribal."

Tam said...


I was unaware of the "P226 Tribal" until you just mentioned it.

I want to go back to five minutes ago. You know, back in the good ol' days when I didn't know about the P226 Tribal.

Anonymous said...

226 Tribal?

Ron Cohen, I stab at thee from the depths of the Wabash Valley!

Shootin' Buddy

pdb said...

The XD made it onto the approved list? Good grief.

Ian Argent said...

Are we sure such a thing exists? It's not on SIG's site. Though I am fully willing to believe in it.

Bram said...

Why the love for .45's? Where criminals just shaking of the 9mm hits?

Stranger said...

Well, the P220 I have runs well. I will probably add it to my carry rotation.

Since snap shooting is an important part of my self defense routine and I don't want to relearn how to hit the chest instead miss the head, a couple of those on the list will remain safe queens.

The wife is putting a lot of rounds through a Storm. I will have to load her a bunch if Isaac allows.


John said...

Ummm.....end of service life? What, they put -- generously -- two-three hunnert rounds a year thru them? A thou annually, mebbe?

There are no SUPERGUNS that only wear out in presence of Firearms Kryptonite. However, Gggggg-locks, do appear from actual re-ports - which I can't cite from my foggy Memory Bank, but do remember reading them - to be pretty long-lived Service Durable.

So 'REPORTEDLY', would the Kraut Plastic-Fantastics just be sorta well-broken in at this stage of - - admittedly speculative on my part - use?

Unless, of course, uber-Officers simply wear guns out by their very uniformed presence around such lowly items. Or maybe, they wear out by Administrative Fiat. Who knows, sans any Agency facts germane to the actual service condition of the arms in question.

Tam said...


Look upon the work of Ron Cohen, ye mighty, and despair!

Fuzzy Curmudgeon said...


I think Tam already covered that: "Because God and John Wayne."


The Raving Prophet said...

Bram, the ISP was told by the IMPD that the .45 hollow point cavity worked well for mixing drinks.

Tam said...


"Or maybe, they wear out by Administrative Fiat."

That's my bet, right there.

Tam said...

(Also, rumor has it that the ISP had had to return a batch of Gen4 G17s...)

DanH said...

You realize the rainbow anodized titanium Sig will now be named the View from the Porch Model. And no, you will not receive royalties.

Bram said...

Prophet - I like that!

Just pop out a round and you are ready to pound some shots with your buddies - before, during, or after patrol.

Mike V. said...

One reason departments trade out like that is that Flock LE Dealers tell them they should be on a 5 year replacement schedule. I think that is so there are plenty of low mileage Blocks on the market. It also allows Glock to talk about their low maintenance costs over the life of the pistol.

Montana said...

Doesn't anybody worry about magazine sharing? What about the poor armorer? Geez.

Bubblehead Les. said...

"But, but where's the 1911s!? I don't see no 1911's!? Everyone KNOWS that it's the BEST Pistol that was ever made!"-Lamentations heard from Colt's Sales and Marketing Dept.

Seriously, that list looks like something out of a Distributor's Catalog. I wonder if someone at ISP was told "Buy from these Guys only! They'll give me $50,000 for my Campaign Account if they're the Sole Source Supplier."

Or am I just being too cynical?

hooper said...

On the upside, if you see a cop carrying his own personal piece rather than a issued one, there's a reasonable chance that cop cares enough about firearms to actually be reasonably proficient. That has nothing to do with the G21, but if someone cares enough to go with something other than what's handed to them for free, they're probably interested in practicing routinely as well.

Pakkinpoppa said...

Sooo....there's going to be some used Blocks out there that some dealer will sell for a song (relative to Block prices anyways)...

If I didn't have...uh, one, Block already I'd buy...uh, a second. One.

Anonymous said...

Lemmesee...tote a free G or spend my six hun on an "approved" know how much hooch you can buy for $600?

After this rotation it'd be interesting to know how many of what get holstered up for duity.

Glock's got this in the bag, as it were.

Ed Foster said...

So the Hartford CT PD just went to Glocks in .40 S&W (which were given to them FREE, actually in exchange for their used S&W M&P.45's) and relative on the force's comment was "At least I only have to pull the piece of shit out of a holster once a year and fire 50 rounds".

Most Hartford Cops who are serious about practice qualify expert, which let's them carry 1911's, with the option of department specified Federal Hydrashocks or Winchester Police Ranger (AKA Black Talons w/o the scary name).

Relative is carrying one of my toys, in electroless nickle boron finish (if it works inside the high pressure compressor of an F-100 engine it will work just fine on a pistol) and Novak low profile Tritiums.

Lessons learned:

A used S&W M&P is worth more in the market than a new Glock.

People of professional bent who want to stay alive on the streets of a really ugly and disfunctional city practice a lot, with the same weapon they carry.

Said weapon is rarely plastic. The extra weight and lower center of gravity of a steel gun makes a much more comfortable weapon in a high round count environment.

A well fitted 1911 will consistently fire groups less than half the size of an M&P .45.

Actually, most of the better shots on the force never wanted to part with their S&W 4506's, a really decent weapon, one of which kept said relative alive through an insane drughouse shootout.

Tam said...


"Lessons learned:

A used S&W M&P is worth more in the market than a new Glock.

You are obviously an engineer and not in sales/marketing. ;)

Pistol manufacturers swap straight across all the time, just to get free advertising and follow on orders. Glock does it, and so does everybody else.

"Said weapon is rarely plastic. The extra weight and lower center of gravity of a steel gun makes a much more comfortable weapon in a high round count environment."

Hate to say it, Ed, but I've been to a fair amount of high round-count classes in the last few years, and the guns are rarely steel. Polymer framed guns are vastly in the majority.

SpeakerTweaker said...

...because God and John Wayne.

John Moses was unavailable for comment. :D

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised no 1911's.

Are the officers suppose to provide their own holsters, magazines and mag pouches as well.

I agree, a department amrorers and instructors nightmare.


Al T. said...

Last class I was in (Tom Givens), two of 18 students had steel guns. One was a SIG 1911 that had problems and a H&K P7 that choked to death on day two.

Two large local agencies (Columbia SC PD and LCSD) recently dropped their SIGs and went to plastic.

Weer'd Beard said...

Probably no 1911s because of the SA trigger.

Also WTH is a "S&W M&P Mid-Size"?

last I checked M&Ps came in Full, compact, and competition sizes.

Ian Argent said...

I found the TTAG page; what I haven't yet found is anyplace to buy that piece of what must be someone's idea of art, per the (alleged) pricing.

Anonymous said...

Wee'rd -

The M&P .45 compact is noticeably larger than the 9mm & .40 compacts, and so is sometimes referred to as "mid-sized".

Mikael said...

Besides, the SIG with the legendary accuracy is the P210...

docjim505 said...

Based on what Tam and RobertaX have written, I have to wonder if the IMPD carry pieces should have breathalyzers attached to the triggers.

Stretch said...

Not a single Python, Trooper, 27 or Service-Six on the list.
Will now go to front porch and yell at kids to stay off my lawn.


Ed Foster said...

Don't know Tam. In the last two months I've seen three CCF steel frames on Glocks, and I've only been to the pistol range three times. Could be a growing trend.

Or it could just be that our local pistol shooters are a bunch of conservative old fogeys. Sadly, I've noticed that, except for the thirty-something cops, most of the local competitors remember wearing a green suit and working for LBJ or Nixon.

Simple physics though, everything else being equal, the pistol that's 7 ounces heavier should shoot better. And I have two buddies, one Navy, one Air Force, who are both President's Hundred, and their 1911 scores are better than their civilian scores with anything else.

Speaking of old fogeys, looks like CMT will be making the frames and slides for the Colt Marine Corps build on the new 1911's (2011's).

Plus, a certain New England P.D. wants to put our 3 inch aluminum frame 1911's under the armpits of their detectives. The initial test guns have done extremely well, but the coppers want a bobtail frame/mainspring housing on the production guns.

I personally think a bobtail makes a certain sense on a Commander length pistol (at least for concealed carry), which still has a full length grip.

But I think doing it on an Officer's Model length grip causes a certain loss of control.

Still the customer's always something or other.

As for the merits/demerits of plastic handles, I think S & W has shown you can make them and not have them break, unlike the plastic sight boys from Unter Pinzgauer.

But I wonder how much of the reason for plastic is either simple availability, admittedly reduced cost, or the cache of the "new/more modern" meme the sales gurus throw around.

Last week I shot one of the new plastic Rock River's side by side with a RR steel gun, and I'd have to say there was a noticable difference in comfort after two or three boxes.

Pakkinpoppa said...

Something crept under the spam/antisubmarine netting, it appears.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:08:

"holstered up for duity."

I see what you did there :)


Kristopher said...

Tam: I'm waiting for the Sig 226 Zombie Hunter to make that police weapon List.

After that NYC hoedown, I am starting to think they should be restricted to this S&W M&P.

The ones who can keep it in the black during quals may carry it loaded and have more than one round in their shirt pocket.

Frank W. James said...

Weer'd Beard: Technically speaking both the Smith & Wesson M&P and the Springfield XD are both "Single Action" semi-autos.

Neither is a double action semi-auto. (The trigger pull on each does NOT cock the striker, but rather releases the cocked firing pin.) The only difference between them and the 1911 is the plastic versus the metal frames. The S&W can be had with a frame mounted manual safety and the XD already has a grip safety.

One is politically incorrect and the other two are politically correct.

Go Figure...

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Will said...


Can the Officers Model be bobtailed?

I haven't gotten around to doing any measuring yet, but I've been pondering the idea. That corner is what prints in CC, plus I think it might be a smidgen more comfortable in extended use, such as classes.

Real question is, how much can be stolen from the mainspring setup and still be functional? I'm thinking it might have to be re-located in some way. But that begins to resemble real engineering, and I'm not sure there would be enough interest in the market to pursue it.

Mike V. said...


I can't speak for other LEOs but there are 2 reasons i don't/won't share mags. 1 - I might need them, 2 - If you burned through your ammo without getting the job done, why would I give you more ammo to waste. YMMV

Rob Reed said...

As an instructor and always a student I agree that plastic guns are in the majority.

When I run the classes for a Michigan CPL I get a wide variety of students. The vast majority of the younger students (under 35) have plastic striker fired pistols. The Glock is big, but the S&W has a strong local following as well. I don't see as many XD's and suprisingly few Kahrs.

The steel (or aluminium) guns I see are generally in the hands of "older" students (over 40) and generally are owned by people have been shooting for five to 10 years, minimum. They typically have had that same gun for much of their shooting career.

As a student, when I took John Farnam's DTI level one class a couple years ago, I noticed that of about 25 to 30 students, only two of us were NOT running striker fired guns. I had a Sig 239 and a CZ-75 (switched after day 1) and one student had a Para 1911 (which choked constantly).

This is just one person's observations, so take it as you will.

Rob (Trebor)

Rob Reed said...

Btw, I'm looking forward to the day when I hear Tam sing "The Gun Show Song" in person. Now that I've met her, the voice in my head does a better imitation of what that will sound like.

Steve C said...

Could be the G-17's service life was determined less by how ofter they were shot and more by how ofter they were cleaned.

GreyLocke said...

If those G17's hit a store local to you, please let me know so I can have my FFL contact them

Ed Foster said...

The Officer's model has the assembly pin hole relocated higher, allowing more stock removal.

Also, the mainspring is both shorter and wider, as well as relocated about .025 farther to the rear.

Basically, you can put a bobtail on an Officer's maybe a skinch over half as big an the one on a Commander.

With the short (3 inch Barrel), narrow,round topped slide, the bobtail, and the low profile Novak sights, it is about as concealable a handgun as a person could find in .45acp, and I think the .45 is dramatically better than the .40 in a short barreled weapon, due to the better expansion ratio of the bigger hole. Plain English, it can burn more powder before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Again, my only complaint about the way the coppers want it set up is the loss of grip length. You're losing a finger's worth of grip simply going to an Officer's length anyway, why effectively lose another half finger of control surface to get the bobtail?

The tradeoff, obviously, is concealability. But from whittled frames to plastic, everybody seems to want something that carries more comfortably, rather than something that might add a bit of edge in a match or an actual gunfight.

I took a cruise one summer on my Uncle's yacht. Actually, it was an LST (that Uncle).

We put into Cap Haitien and, before debarking, got a security breifing/lecture from some Ton Tons, who looked like the Blues Brothers. Neither of these guys was over 5'6" or weighed better than 130, but both of them were carrying full sized 1911's in shoulder rigs.

Makes you wonder how all those FBI agents made it through the day without a hernia from the 1930's to the 1980's.

buzz_knox said...

"Also WTH is a "S&W M&P Mid-Size"?"

A M&P .45 with slide from the Compact on the frame of the Full-Size. It is roughly the size of the Glock 19 and is considered by some to be the sweet spot in the M&P .45 line.

Will said...


To expand why I think it would be a useful addition to the little 1911's. (BTW, I have a number of the original Officers Model)

When carried on the waist, that corner/point is the main giveaway in concealment, at least for me. (I'm the size of your Ton-Tons, minus a few lbs. Love shoulder rigs, got a bunch)

I've got fairly big hands. What I observe is the end of the frame hits the palm swell. I think I would get better engagement of the backstrap if it wasn't being levered away by sitting on that meaty area. I don't think you lose contact by carving away some material in this area, due to the profile of your palm.

Just noticed my late 80's Llama .32 (mini 1911 style) has a grip size identical to the Officers, but is essentially bobtailed. Much more comfortable fit!

Is your bobtail mainspring assembly available?

Ed Foster said...

Write to and give me a shipping address. Glad to send a freebee.

Also, the matching profile of the lower frame will need to be milled/filed/ground down to match the curve of the housing.

Or better yet, I could send you one that doesn't have the bobtail radius cut in to it, and you or your gunsmith could file in whatever radius works for you.

Your call.

Jason said...

Going back to .45s - even single stacks - and no 4506? What a shame, what a shame. Oh well. A P220 Stainless would probably slide in under the radar.

Ed Foster said...

I remember a momumental target shooting match a number of years ago between Yours Truely and my Po-Po Detective son, with his 4506 against my Colt Series 70. He ended up eating crow and buying the beer, after losing by a single point.

But, I was a better shot then than I am now, he is a better shot now than he was then, and the reason the Series 70 had stayed with me all those years was that it was really accurate.

That a bone stock police issue 4506 would essentially equal the accuracy of a good Colt in the hands of an, at the time, less experienced shooter, impresses the hell out of me. The kids up in West Springfield knew what they were about when they put that weapon together.

I think the Colt had a slight edge in trigger feel, and I'm not a lover of the external extractor or magazine disconnect. Also, I agree totally with Col. Cooper's opinion of the double action trigger, "A marvellous answer to a question never asked".

But still, a solid, accurate, well made example of the gunmakers art. I would rather carry a well maintained 4506 with a thousand or two rounds through it than a new Glock.

Ed Foster said...

On a related note, if anyone can steer me to a clean Smith 745 with the factory target sight, it's worth a bottle of Redbreast 12 year old.

Suburban said...

HA!! "being replaced with .45 ACP pistols because God and John Wayne."