Thursday, September 06, 2012

No, seriously, stop touching it.

A poster at INGO relates the following story:
The other day at Bare Arms in Noblesville, I was asked to unholster and show an empty chamber even though I had no magazine in my gun.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in a gun store, and believe you me, I've heard of some dumb things in gun stores. I mean, that is dumber than a Taurus Judge with mother-of-toilet-seat grips and gold controls, and that's pretty dumb, let me tell you.

The gun is just sitting there in the guy's holster not bothering anybody, and in the alleged name of safety, you want him to skin his smokewagon and coonfinger it right there on the showroom floor? That right there is just dumber than an acre of fungus. I would have looked at Cletus like he'd just sprouted an extra head and walked right out of his store, never to darken its door again.

Seriously, a gun that isn't being messed with is a gun that isn't going to go off; sitting in a holster, it's an inert object. If it's safety you're concerned about, Mr. Gun Store Man, why don't we just leave it there?

(I went to check out the store's web page. Oh, look, another little gun store open from 10-6 on Tuesday through Friday and 8-4 on Saturday. What is it with these little hobby businesses and their "Catering to the Unemployed" hours? If you are in the retail business, you need to be open when the people who can afford to purchase your wares are not at work. Notice how most national retail chains are open 'til 9PM? They didn't pull that number out of a hat, Cletus. And hire you a Shabbat Goy from 1-5 on Sundays.)


The Duck said...

You have that right, I was there in March, with a friend, who is a friend of the owner, and as we approached the door, he said you are not carrying are you?, and of course I said yes,"you can't carry in there", and I said watch me, it was holstered and concealed.
There were a couple of items that aroused my purchasing interest, but since since the store had that attitude, I had one too.

Anonymous said...

For the goyim amongst you out there it's a Shabbos goy.

And you need him for the Friday evening/Saturday shift. You can use one of gods chosen people for the Sunday shift :-)


Jay G said...

Damn, now I wish I'd taken a picture of the sign at my gun shop. Basically, it said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Leave your damn gun holstered". Not "leave it unloaded" or "leave it in the car".

Just don't start waving it around in the store.

Dirt Sailor said...

All the ranges and stores in San Diego have signage that something like "All firearms, loaded or unloaded, must be cased and locked unless carried by law enforcement on duty"

Anonymous said...

"(I went to check out the store's web page. Oh, look, another little gun store open from 10-6 on Tuesday through Friday and 8-4 on Saturday. What is it with these little hobby businesses and their "Catering to the Unemployed" hours? If you are in the retail business, you need to be open when the people who can afford to purchase your wares are not at work. Notice how most national retail chains are open 'til 9PM? They didn't pull that number out of a hat, Cletus. And hire you a Shabbat Goy from 1-5 on Sundays.)"


Nothing annoys me more than a retail biz (guns or otherwise) that is only open when I'm at work.


Divemedic said...

Same with ranges in Central Florida:

Boat Guy said...

With those hours, it's not a "business" in any real sense and with policies like that it won't be a business long in any real marketplace.
My old outfit had the "Leave it in your holster and don't mess with it" policy; the trick came when we had to visit the "conventional folks", entering their turf was always an exercise in clear on the way in and make ready on the way out.
I swear half of the gunfire I heard in my brief time in Iraq (early on) was from the clearing barrels that the conventional folks are so fond of...

Panamared said...

Just goes to show you how indoctrinated we are as a society, when even a gun store is anti-gun.

BillB said...

That is what grates on me about "gun-free zones"

It just leads to more gunhandling....which is when bad things happen

So tell me again how safe they are???

wrm said...

"Bare" Arms? Isn't that the problem, right there?

Anonymous said...

The range I worked on was a leave it alone and we will all be fine.

The problem was always when numbnuts wanted to buy a holster. He would want try his Glock 19 in the holster instead of using the one in the display. After the first time you would stop him mid draw and explain the facts of life to him , sometimes rather directly.

IMHO there is a huge difference between folks who guns and those folks who are gunnies.


Al T. said...

I've always wondered about the "logic" that an unloaded gun somehow protects the clerks while handling a customer's firearm. So, the four rules are suspended when a customer hands you a gun? Who knew?

Anonymous said...

IMHO there is a huge difference between folks who own or collect guns and those folks who are gunnies.

Sorry coffee is not working.




after consulting a RAV we are of the opinion that a shabbos goy is not needed

maintaining a vital service to the community that effects its health safety
and well being is not like an ordinary
business especially in issues of safety the service is vital therefore
it is not "shomer shabbos" situation and must be maintained

the proper way to do it is defer payment of goods and services rendered till AFTER shabbat

doctors nurses medics the armed forces emergency services vital transportation power distribution and many other aspects of modern life cannot be shut down friday sundown till twilight saturday evening
in these and other vital areas affecting persons HEALTH AND SAFETY
where it would impact with adverse circumstances you can engage in such activities

a knowledgeable person does not need someones else s seal of approval to do the right thing


Anonymous said...

There is a gun store/indoor range in town,all the clerks carry ,(I suspect most of the customers do too),with no signs posted related to carrying,and if a customer asks if they would like to check his/her gun,they say "I wish you would just leave it where it is)
Seems to be the correct policy.

Ygolonac said...

We've got pawnshops here that have "Firearms must be unloaded" signs, but I use the logic that they are referring to ones being brought in for sale or pawn. Or being redeemed, for that matter - I should think you'd get the stink-eye for making ready right at the counter.

Only "All firearms must be cased and unloaded" sign" I've seen was at the gunshop-with-indoor-range, where the staff are all OC'ing to discourage unsocial property redistribution, and where they *really* don't want people fumbling around with loaded guns unless they're pointed downrange(ish) in the Loud Room.

Logic would also suggest maybe doing all admin actions in the car or otherwise not in public view, but logihuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Anonymous said...

I've visited any number of gun stores over the years, and any gun store with a "no loaded guns permitted" sign does not get my business.

There's one exception: Shoot Straight in Apopka, FL. At the time I was employed by the elected Sheriff of Orange County and took exception to the sign with SS management. A discussion with the corporation owner and the general manager of that SS store, both of whom I knew personally (they have several stores) about the issue led to the GM's statement "if we don't see it, we don't know about it." I inquired whether that extended to non-law enforcement personnel and the GM repeated the statement.

I took that to mean it was a "liability issue" designed by the company's lawyers primarily because there is a live fire range on the premises, and based on his statement, I've always carried there, even after I left Sheriff's Office employ, and have spent quite a few dollars with SS.

I have no idea if that philosophy extends to their other stores. I'd suggest checking with the management of those locations.

Interestingly, a few years later there were incidents involving SS customers who were observed using the range and then leaving with their guns in cases, just like the door sign requires; the bad guys followed them home and conducted unauthorized wealth redistribution at gunpoint in the customer's driveway, usually involving wallets and the expensive cased - and unloaded - firearms.

Having retired and moved from Florida, I'm now in a state that has a great many more statutory prohibitions on CCW than Florida; while I, and many others, are engaged in working to achieve the legislative changes necessary to resolve those problems, I have not found a gun store here that prohibits CCW. One, with a range, has a door sign stating that "guns not unloaded and cased must be kept in the holster."

I see no problem with that philosophy.

SpeakerTweaker said...

This post has a multi-tiered WIN factor in play. It's a tough routine. I'm giving it a 9.9.

I'm taking "mother-of-toilet-seat" and running with it, though. That's just beautiful. "Dumber than an acre of fungus" ain't far behind it, either.

Robert Fowler said...

My "official" hours are 8 to 6 Tuesday thru Saturday. All of my regular customers know they can call anytime. I met one customer at 0330 one morning because he was on his way to work. I've even met customers at my part time job to do transfers. I also never ask about whether or not anyone is carrying. I carry, so can they. Holstered is always better than waving the thing around with a round in the chamber.

Teke said...

Almost all the stores / ranges I have been in around these here parts follow the rule. If your carrying keep it holdtered. If were going to look at it. Unload it and put it in a case.

I.E. All guns are to be holstered or in a case/range bag.

If it's holstered don't touch it.

Vaarok said...

But Tuesday Through Saturday is Gunshop hours. Every gunshop I've ever frequented runs them, pretty much the same, with flexibility if you call ahead.

'cept one shop in NC that was closed Tuesday, so I never gave them my business, mostly because I had Tuesdays off. Which I requested because it's Gunshop Day.

Justin said...

Maybe was prior non-combat arms military. I swear that a vast majority if all NDs overseas are at the clearing barrels for the chowhall and PX, even if regs allowed con 3 or 1 carry on that base. I could never get over the fact that the sign in front even told you to dry fire the weapon after clearing. Always seemed like a bad idea to me.

Earl said...

There is entirely too much 'not my fault' thought behind gun clearing barrels. I lived very well in Vietnam with fully loaded M16s and .45s all around, more troubling were the five ton ammo trucks without brakes. There weren't any gun clearing barrels on my firebase.

Bubblehead Les. said...

Don't know about Indy, but up here, the Hill of Geese Chain Stores have that "All Firearms must be Cased/Unloaded" Crap. They even escort you to the Cashier at Front of the Store when you purchase a Firearm, with the Gun Sealed like it was the Ark of the Covenant.

But they are open during decent hours.

Ted N said...

I'm a Blackhawk Crew Chief, and I despise the Army's official clearing procedure and clearing barrels in general, along the the "OMG its a gun, ahhhh!", attitude that seems to sit around at times.

Of course, there's no dumb barrels on the flight line, I've no idea how we loaded and unloaded the machine guns, rifles and pistols for mission the whole year without putting holes everywhere. It's like we were expected to be competent, and so we were. Crazy.

Your rifle/whatever is yours, if you don't know it's status and can't keep control of it, then WTF?

instinct said...

My local range rules say "Leave it in the holster or in the case".

That gun store is obviously only in it because they think it will make lots of money, not because they actually like and know guns.

Blackwing1 said...

Minnesota passed the "shall-issue" law regarding carrying of firearms about 9 years ago. Prior to that, it was never an issue, because nobody (other than the rich, well-connected, or the politicians and their crews) could get a carry permit.

Since then, the Gander Mountain's and Cabela's in the state have signs at their entries similar to that noted by Bubblehead Les above, but in smaller print below, the sign ALSO says something like, "Does not apply to legally carried firearms by permit holders".

I'm pretty sure their intent is that guns being brought in for trade or sale have to be in the case, but that anybody actively carrying with no intent of dragging it out can just come on in.

As it should be, in my opinion.

Ygolonac said...

Anon - regarding "unauthourised wealth redistribution" via follow-home: that's what making ready in the driver's seat is for. :D It doesn't hurt that I live in an 8-unit apartment building, with offstreet parking, and anyone following me *there* will be kinda obvious.

"Oh look, armed people are exiting that car and heading towards me. Wonder if a '95 GM Safari can make Major in this distance?"

Kristophr said...

What they need is a gun clearing barrel at the entrance.

This sort of things has been made necessary by retards, Tam.

A person got shot at a gunshow in Rock Springs WY this year because some dumbass brought in an AR-10 clone with no magazine and a .308 round in the chamber.

Anonymous said...

@Ygolonac - Easier said than done. It's a rare individual who is sufficiently aware to detect being followed, and fewer still who are not surprised when two cars block them in in their own driveway and especially when confronted in said driveway at gunpoint (See: "Condition White"). The reports indicated that most "redistributed" guns were removed from the victim's trunk at gunpoint, and that the victims were selected because they had been shooting high dollar, easily re-sellable guns.

Statistically, the recent GAO report indicates 887K CCW holders in FL out of just under 19 million residents, which is about 4.7%. That means a LOT of FL gun owners do not have CCW permits. FL statutes (FS Chapter 790.001, para 17) allow loaded carry in a closed glove box, but you'd be surprised how many people do not avail themselves of that option. Which, in any event, is pretty useless when Bad Bart sticks his pot metal .32 in your window by surprise (RE: "surprise": See: "Situational Awareness," "Condition White").

M said...

Tam and I are of a mind on this.

Kristopher, a gun-clearing barrel is a great idea for any firearm that is to be handled. But a holstered gun is a safe gun. Your example of a handled AR-10 is a case where the guy would see the customer come in with the rifle, say "Show clear into the sand barrel right there, sir," and then they conduct some business.

Why you believe that anyone who would disregard a directive to leave the handguns holstered would be safer in drawing and coon-fingering a gun is beyond me.

This attitude extends to administrative unloads anywhere. Cold range matches drive me nuts. (Not to mention the additional wasted time.)

Fuzzy Curmudgeon said...

As a card-carrying certified Jew, I took the "Shabbat Goy" thing as a prime example of snark.

Not going to offer a correction as certain folks have above, because, well, snark like that you just don't correct.


Bubblehead Les. said...

Wait! Got another Pet Peeve on this Topic. Again, I don't know about your Areas, but up here on the NorthCoast of Buckeye Land, some of the local Gun Shows have Police at the Entrances to ensure that ALL Firearms that enter the Premises in Customer's Hands are Empty and Locked Open (if possible), and that one has to take off their Pistols and be disarmed.

While 20 feet from the entrance is an Ammo Dealer next to a Magazine Dealer who is set up next to a Gun Dealer, but all the Dealers are allowed to Carry. And I know that at least 2 of the Locations have Restrooms "inside the Wire," where after a few minutes of commerce, one could combine 3 purchases into one loaded firearm.

Never could figure out that Legal Logic.

Ian Argent said...

NJ being a Point of Contact state, there's not a lot of reason for a gun store to be open past when the State Police turn off the phone lines for their check, or on Sunday when Terry never turn it on. Though I see the local store I was going to use as an examine is open late Thursday and Friday, so there is that.

Anonymous said...

Bud's, the well known retailer in Lexington, Ky, has a "no loaded firearms" decal on the door. I'm just absolutely positive that the notice does not include CCDWL holders who have no intention of unholstering in the store. Just positive! regards, Alemaster

Kristophr said...

M: If the person is bringing a pistol into a gunshow that is unloaded but holstered, then my guess is that it IS going to get handled/sold.

If it is a defensive carry piece, it is supposed to be loaded, and yes, "stop touching it!" applies.

Joe in PNG said...

One shop in Florida had a "Patrons may be armed" sign. Warmed my little heart, it did.

Ron said...

After spending as much time as I have in gun shops, and seeing ALL manner of idiots come into a facility and muzzle everybody possible, I can't say I blame the management for these "unnecessary hardships" in the way of rules.How many times have you watched a clueless idiot pick up a gun with finger on trigger and wave it around at a gun shop or worse yet, a gun show. I just about refuse to attend shows any longer due to being muzzled every 15 seconds. It helps me to remember that that rules were put in place cover the masses, BOTH gun savvy and non gun savvy. My skin is a lil too thick to let this get to me.

Tam said...


Having spent most of my adult life behind one gun shop counter or another, I am quite familiar with the goings-on there, trust me.

Here's an honest question: How come we all say that "NO GUNS" signs won't stop criminals or idiots out among the general public, but they suddenly become magical force-fields when hung on gun shops?

If a gun shop or gun show wants to have a true "cold range", they need to provide a clearing barrel (or a fiddle table with a safe backstop) and then cable-tie the weapon's action at the door.

(...and even with those precautions in place, someone manages to let one fly at a local gun show once or twice a year.)

A more pragmatic sign would say something to the effect of "Loaded weapons must remain holstered" or words to that effect...

The Great and Powerful Oz said...

Back in the 1950s, which was before I was born, my father ran a TV repair shop. He didn't bother to open until after noon, which made it easy for him to make house calls until about 9PM. This made a number of his customers very happy, being available on their schedule was a very good thing.

Unknown said...
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alex said...

Never heard the term "coonfinger" before. Old Marines of my generation used the term "fingerfuck". Carry on.

Tam said...


The post here is commenting on the gentleman in question demanding that the customer unload and show clear right there in the store, which is unbridled idiocy no matter how one looks at it. Not even "Go out and unload your gun outside against an exterior wall..."


"Never heard the term "coonfinger" before."

I believe it to be a Southernism, or at least a Redneckism. It refers to pawing over something in the manner of a raccoon washing its food.

Anonymous said...

Yes, please. An indoor gun range open on a Sunday in Lexington Ky and until 9PM on the weeknights; I might actually get to shoot more that\n once a month.

Thomas said...

My personal favorite is, "keep your booger hook off the bang switch"

Windy Wilson said...

"in the manner of a raccoon washing its food."
That is exactly the image I get when I hear the term Coonfinger", and while I am not southern* or redneck, if they kept count like the Japanese, I would be Nisei redneck.

*One woman of my acquaintance, upon hearing my family came from Missouri, said, I didn't know you were Southern!"