Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Instant feedback.

I'm not going to dwell on this because the responsible party has already paid as much as they can pay. There is a process for instructing someone in handling machine pistols, especially small ones with high cyclic rates, that is neatly summarized by my 'net pal Gary here:
First step is to familiarize the shooter with the firearm. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger, insert empty magazine. Remove the same. Load magazine with one round. Cock. Fire. Remove the magazine.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire one shot.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire a two shot burst.
Load the magazine with three rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire a two shot burst.
Repeat but with more bullets in magazine. Object is to get the user familiar with the recoil of the uzi.
Never ever give a full magazine to a novice and tell them go set on full auto and spray. 
That's pretty much how I did it when instructing people in using the Glock 17 with "da switch".

As several posters in that TFL thread noted, they (or their children) had fired more rounds in full auto by the time they were 8-11 than most adults ever will. There's nothing magic about a buzzgun but, just like with any gun, if certain safety procedures are not adhered to, the results can be traumatic.


Boat Guy said...

I'm more concerned with the effects this will have on that little girl.

Tam said...

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for the resilience of childhood to help her get through. That must have been horrific to experience. :(

Anonymous said...

This was akin to teaching someone to fly by strapping them into an F104 in a blizzard and clearing them for takeoff. I doubt that any 9yr old has big enough hands to encircle the pistol grip of an uzi, or the musculature required to control it.


Tam said...

" I doubt that any 9yr old has big enough hands to encircle the pistol grip of an uzi, or the musculature required to control it."

I disagree.

SPEMack said...

I was nine and shooting Pop's AK bring back safely and enjoying every minute of it.

But, like most native Georgians, or atleast as portrayed in the media, I had a BB gun before I could tie my shoes.

Such a tragedy. as stated above, I feel horrible for the little girl more than anything.

Joseph said...

This makes me sad, just so damned sad. Like you said, the responsible party has paid as much as is possible. I pray for the young girl and her family who experienced this and for the family of the instructor.

Little kids shooting guns is awesome when it is done right and we've had two tragic incidents within the last few years. To the gun community and especially NFA community LEARN DAMMIT!

Geodkyt said...

It's one thing to carefully, and deliberately, in small steps, coach a new shooter (especially a kid) through using a buzz gun. Doubly so when you know the new shooter.

It's another thing when your business model involves renting machineguns to people. I think that rental places that let pretty much teh general public try out SMGs ought to use physical limiters that prevent the gun from being able to point at something other than the "safe backstop". Certainly where kids are concerned.

It really isn't that hard or expensive -- a piece of plywood with a hole cut in it, and a safety strap that won't quite allow the muzzle past the hole. They still get to aim the gun normally and feel the recoil, but can't walk the muzzle to their head or anyone else on or behind the line.

Kristophr said...


An MG dealer I used to patronize taught his eight year old daughter how to shoot an MP-5.

If asked, she could expertly load it, fire the magazine at the target in controlled bursts, clear it, and hand it back to her father ... while looking extremely bored about the whole business.

Kids can be taught firearms ... but handing a loaded gun to a kid and just saying "shoot this" often ends in tears.

Steve C said...

This is not the first time this has happened. I remember a few years back, a kid shot himself in the head after losing control of a rental sub-gun.

Tam said...

With Geodkyt's comment above, I think it's germane to the discussion to point out that my job duties for several years involved giving check rides on an Uzi, MP5K, MP5A2, Colt 635, and a Glock 17 FA conversion.

Our main control on rentals was that the person renting the FA had to have been a range customer three times before we'd give them a submachinegun orientation.

Tam said...

(Oh, and the FA Glock wasn't out for general rental.)

Anonymous said...

Tam, I beg to differ, based on my limited experience. My cousin's daughter plays competitive hockey (39mph wristshot, 63mph slapshot) so I would posit that physically she is at the far right of the bell curve for her age. Last summer she was 10 when I took her family to the range.

I had her in a proper Weaver stance, left elbow down instead of out, tension in both arms to make a rigid platform, knees flexed, left hand wrapped over the right, thumbs parallel etc, etc. She had to adjust her grip after every shot. She complained that my buddy's CZ75 was too big for her hands to achieve a secure grip. She didn't want to even try my Para-Ordnance 14-45 and happily went back to my Ruger MkII and Security Six with mild 38Sp handloads. Rather than tempt fate we decided not to have her little sister try the CZ.

It's been a long time since I shot an Uzi (they were prohibited here a long time ago) but I remember being surprised at how much muzzle flip it had for such a heavy handgun; I assume it's because the bore axis is very high. I assume that the Uzi grip is similar in size to a CZ75 as both have 9mm double stack mags.


P.S. This incident is featured news on the website of every Canadian news source and CBC radio is reporting it every hour on the national news. The Daily Mail and The Telegraph also have the story, and as you may guess the tone is that gunowners are irresponsible yokels so the tragedy is two-fold; that poor fellow is dead and the media is using the accident to show how dangerous guns are.

Tam said...


Your objections are noted. However, I have seen many small children running Uzis and other SMGs, in addition to all manner of handguns.

Anonymous said...

I had some time with a variety of Uzi designed firearms including MP-9 for Ruger. I would not have kid under 16 shoot one and I don't even like kids.


Tam said...

" I would not have kid under 16 shoot one"

There have been kids under 16 killing MF'ers with Uzis pretty much since the day it was fielded.

Anonymous said...


That's true, more true with AK's.
The point is not having them kill the friendlies while they are at it.


Joe in PNG said...

The micro-buzzers may be a bit much for the newbie little tykes.
Probably best to start them on an M-4, then work down.

Darrell said...

I watched a little boy, maybe five or six, fire a 7.62x51 minigun while at a local FA shoot a few years ago. From the amount of ammo he shot I figured his father must have owned the gun. He made it look easy, and no doubt for him, through experience, it was. Of course, he was sitting or kneeling on the ground behind the low tripod mounted gun.

Rob said...

Darrell: miniguns are usually pintle mounted. The user isn't really taking any recoil in that instance (which is why there isn't a shoulder stock), making them fairly easy to control.

roland said...

Neil Smith's triple minigun setup crushed a girl at KCR many moons ago. Bad things happen when we stop showing firearms the respect they require. Machineguns tend to compress the time/space continuum. When shit goes pear shaped it happens awfully fast. Add to that the panic induced "unintended acceleration" effect where the shooter winds up holding the trigger down with all their might, and it can get very ugly. I use a familiarization regimen similar to Tam's when introducing folks to my MG's. There are plenty of ten year old kids who can handle an Uzi safely, and there are plenty of grown men who can't.

Geodkyt said...

I will note, that while I have seen kids in the 9-11 range safely firing SMGs, and I would have no problem letting my not-quite-9 daughter (who has been shooting since she was 4) fire something like a 9mm AR15 buzzgun with proper supervision, I wouldn't ever hand her - or a new-to-full-auto adult - a Mini-Uzi unrestrained with a full magazine.

Show me you can control one round in the mag. Then two. Then three. Then a couple of bursts from a six round mag. THEN I'll consider letting you have a full stick.

Or, tether the gun so it cannot break the plane from behind the line. And (as mentioned above), make sure the gun cannot - even with full body weight pulling on it) flip whatever the gun is mounted to.

0007 said...

We use a FA suppressed short-barreled 10/22 to teach the younger kids the basics of fa fire at our shoots. No recoil and very quiet.

I believe I also read that that Uzi had one of those 50rd drum mags, which would make for a serious pivot point if someone was holding the gun incorrectly.

Geodkyt said...

0007 -- I'd have to check the video again, but I do not recall a 50 round drum.

I also have serious doubts she could support a 50 round drum full of ammo long enough to get to that point, based on typical arm strength of 9 year olds.

0007 said...

As I said, I read it on another blog so it certainly could be incorrect. Even so, a full mag would be half the weight of a box of 50 + the weight of the gun. And once the upward force of the recoil started shifting the point of balance, I 'spect the thing just pivoted around mag/receiver .

That said, why am I thinking of a similar incident where the poor kid shot herself? Done under the supervision of a local sheriff or something.