Thursday, April 12, 2012

The meme that wouldn't die.

All over the TeeWee and internet, people are still talking about Zimmerman "disobeying" the 911 operator. Zimmerman did not "disobey a 911 operator", even if such a thing were possible.

The 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin. Zimmerman replied in the affirmative. The 911 operator said, and I quote: "We don't need you to do that".

My roommate says "I'm going to the kitchen, I'll bring you a Coke."

I reply "I don't need you to do that."

She brings me a Coke anyway. Has she "Disobeyed My Orders"? According to every talking head on my television screen she has, and the meme is penetrating my frickin' computer now.

Besides, the whole concept of "disobeying the orders of a 911 operator" is ludicrous on its surface. Last I checked, the 911 operator is not in my chain of command. That's like "disobeying the orders" of your plumber. (Similarly, if your plumber suggests that it might not be a good idea to flush the toilet right this second, you'd be well-advised to take his suggestion under consideration. I'll bet George wishes he had.)

37 comments:

Broken Andy said...

Zimmerman should have handed the phone to Trayvon so the 911 operator could have ordered him to quit beating the crap out of Zimmerman. This sounds just as logical.

Anonymous said...

But, Tam she's from the goverment, authorized to help you!

Gerry

Bubblehead Les. said...

Gee, remember a few months back when that 18 year old Mother stayed on the line with the 911 Operator until she had to drop the phone and use her Shotgun because the Goblins were coming in? Anti-Gunners claimed that she "Executed" the Poor Bad Guys, even though she was listening to 911 and following directions up to the end.

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Polly said...

I've actually heard that Zimmerman DID discontinue following Trayvon, though he had lost sight of him and continued walking and looking down the various streets, then returned to his truck, where Trayvon confronted him.

Many are railing against the Florida's "stand your ground" law. If I'm under a big black kid who's pounding my head against the pavement, I'm not debating whether I fall under the "stand your ground" law, I'm going to do whatever I can to stay alive.

No one other than Zimmerman knows what really happened, but the usual suspects are demanding "justice," which apparently includes "Wanted, Dead or Alive" posters but at the least means imprisonment for murder. And I'm betting Holder will prosecute Zimmerman if some silly jury finds he acted in self defense.

Sport Pilot said...

I fully agree that Zimmerman did not disobey the 911 Operators “orders” as no “orders” were given by said person. However, I fully expect to see this become a significant portion of the prosecution’s case in order to establish intent. More than likely it will be presented as he choose to disregard the E911 Operator’s “cautionary” warning, thus intentionally placing himself into a confrontational position with Martin.
The fact he was following him while armed and talking with an E911 Operator will also most likely be an element of intent as well. The argument will be if he’d simply called E911, not followed Martin and not been armed while doing all of this then no confrontation would have occurred. Without the subsequent confrontation no fatal shooting would have occurred. It all pretty much sucks because a public trial has already taken place, tainted by distorted media coverage.
If any of the above doesn’t come into the prosecution matrix I’ll be very surprised because the very nature of prosecution is to show him in as negative and reckless a manner as possible. Further I expect to see the investigating officers portrayed as bungling this investigation. As to any conviction of Zimmerman, I only hope that he does receive a fair trial and that all of the facts are fully presented.

SGB said...

The process was subverted. Period.

Anonymous said...

"I'd Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

Tam said...

Anybody automatically assuming Zimmerman's innocence because y'all both have a CCW permit is no different than those automatically assuming his guilt because they're the same skin tone as Martin.

Woodman said...

I don't know how, if I assume that no one saw the confrontation start (a reasonable assumption so far), I could sit on a jury and call Zimmerman guilty.

Unless they can prove that he provoked or started the confrontation then this is all just to make everyone feel better.

Several people have brought up that he might get charged just to show justice being done, despite the fact that there would never be a conviction.

For all I know Zimmerman could have walked up to the kid and said he was going to kick his black ass. Just as much as I could assume Trayvon jumped out of the shadows and ninja kicked him in the face and was ninja death punching him into the pavement.

In any case. An injured man is alive and an uninjured man is dead. Reasonable doubt in my case says the injured man was attacked and the dead man was shot because of it.

Thank God I won't be on that jury. Or involved with that case in any way shape or form. It's got disaster written all over it. If I was Obama or Holder I would have stayed a million miles away. Shit splatters.

And just because the police could be incompetent cronyist(?) idiots doesn't mean Zimmerman needed a cover up or a broom sweeping anything up. Get off my side indeed.

Steve said...

I'll be interested in seeing what new evidence has come up to take this from no charges being filed to murder 2.

Tam said...

Steve,

I'm interested in hearing that myself.

Will said...

Easy prediction: if this goes to criminal court, no conviction. However, Holder will then unleash his minions to crucify Zimmerman with a "civil rights" circus. Which is frighteningly easy to convict under, even after failure of a real court. Can you say "double jeopardy"?

Brings to mind the Rodney King fiasco.

Trivia: Several high-profile self-defense experts, with experience in helping convict bad cops and save good ones, were invited to work for the prosecution in that first (criminal) case. When they viewed the full video (which the media edited for the masses), they all told the DA "no way" and offered their services to the cops defense team. Which is why there were no criminal convictions. The media corrupted the case with the public by editing out the portions of the tape that supported the cops "measured response" to King's attempts to get to the female CHP officer. That was the heart of the case.

We can expect a repeat of that whole thing.

.22lr said...

"If I'm under a big black kid who's pounding my head against the pavement"

Race, and perhaps size, don't really matter here. I don't care if I'm having my head slammed against pavement by albino midgets. The actor in this case doesn not matter, what matters is the act.

Size matters when the person has such an overwhelming size advantage that I am unable to stop them. But every albino midget I have met has been a ninja... so in that case, my size advantage is negated.

I'm somewhat pleased that Mr. Zimmerman is going to trial. Rules of evidence are far from perfect, but they beat the heck out of the court of public opinion.

Shrimp said...

I heard an interesting theory that the Martin family is only wanting Zimmerman arrested (conviction is irrelevant) because once he is arrested, he can then be held liable via civil suit. The text of FL's law prevents the family from suing him, unless is is arrested and charged in connection with the shooting, as I understand it. Since he was not arrested and charged (prior to this), they had NOTHING. They couldn't even sue.

Sort of an "OJ" media circus, where the conviction becomes completely irrelevant because suing the guy is the far easier task to accomplish. Of course, I think in OJ's case, they missed a slam dunk conviction and had to resort to that just to get the stink off of themselves.

No matter how this ends, I fail to see the upside.

Noah D said...

what new evidence has come up to take this from no charges being filed to murder 2.

Good question!

Cynically, I'd venture: pressure from the Feds (Holder speaking in front of a Sharpton group), the racemongers themselves (via state/local gov't), various 'activists', etc.

Realistically? No idea. But I will venture this, in my IANAL way: if there's no pictures of Zimmerman with a bloodied face and back of head, he's screwed.

Tam said...

.22lr,

I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Anonymous said...

In principle, I agree. However, getting a CCW shows a set of behavior patterns and a nod toward following the law. Thus, presuming a decision based on prior decisions. I think that's slightly more valid than basing a decision on skin tone. Both are very fallible, but perhaps one infintismally smaller than the other.

In other news: Obama decries how many angels may dance on the head of a pin. Holder to enforce by licensing pins and regulating angels.

Circa Bellum said...

the evidence I saw/heard lead me to believe that he had lost sight of Martin, was heading to his truck to wait for the police when he was confronted by Martin and attacked. A bit different from disobeying an order or even heeding the "order".

Sigivald said...

Will said: However, Holder will then unleash his minions to crucify Zimmerman with a "civil rights" circus. Which is frighteningly easy to convict under, even after failure of a real court. Can you say "double jeopardy"?

How does DOJ do that?

Doesn't DOJ only handle criminal prosecutions for the Feds?

DOJ needs no involvement at all for the family to sue Zimmerman; I'm absolutely sure that unless the evidence at trial more or less proves him innocent he's going to get a civil suit from the family no matter what.

DOJ has nothing to do with that - even a DOJ hostile to the family's claim couldn't really affect it.

(And no, there's no legal double jeopardy, since there's no double criminal trial.

Torts and crimes are very, very intentionally separate and have always so been under our Common Law tradition.

Overall it's probably a good thing that they are.

Yeah, it can be abused - and so can every good.)

Kristopher said...

.22lr: Just how did you get yourself beaten up by albino midget ninjas?

The world wants to know.

LawDog said...

If I were a cynical man with a decade or so experience in some part of the criminal justice system, I might opine that some (unethical) prosecutors have been known to hit the defendant with the maximum charge, then lets the defendant Sit and Ponder the Worst. In this case, Life In Prison.

That way when the prosecutor offers them the 15-year plea to the lesser charge that the defendant should have been hit with (that the prosecutor might not win), that looks so much better than Life that the defendant jumps at what may actually be a very weak plea bargain.

If I were cynical.

LawDog

.22lr said...

".22lr: Just how did you get yourself beaten up by albino midget ninjas?"

Midget ninjas could never get the best of me! But ALBINO midget ninjas are a whole 'nuther matter.

?Newsletter? I will assume that you are refering to my somewhat loveable nuttery?

On a more serious note, I feel that there is wisdom in LawDog's cynacisym...

.22lr said...

Anonymous said...
"I'd Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

This is not an attack on the poster who said the above quote. It is a vehement attack on the moronic saying.

Means, motive, and opportunity, these are the checkboxes that I need to fill before force of any sort is used. I will be second guessed. I will probably have my life ruined. I may lose my freedom, I may lose my marriage, I may lose my possessions.

It isn't a choice between death or a jury trial, it is a choice between rotting in the ground or rotting in a cell.

I'm not saying that being alive isn't preferable. What I'm saying is that trite statements of bravado don't come close to relaying the repercussions of the decision to defend yourself using deadly force.

"I'd Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is almost moronic as "A good shoot is a good shoot".

Should all other means be exhausted, the passing of a life that I have loved will be mourned... The love, joy, and comfort that I now know will be laid to siege on all sides.

The repercussions of the fatal trigger pull will reverberate across the rest of my life. There is a reason that I am an decent shot, but a MASTER of avoidance.

Polly said...

Sigivald, Will suggested that if a jury acquitted Zimmerman then Holder might prosecute Zimmerman under federal law for violating Trayvon's constitutional/civil rights, much as the police officers who were found "not guilty" in the beating of Rodney King were subsequently prosecuted, and two convicted, of violating Rodney's civil rights. It would be a criminal prosecution.

This is quite different from the civil case the Martin family might bring against Zimmerman, though unless Zimmerman is a rich man, the civil case would be of more harassment value than monetary value.

Anonymous said...

.22LR, if I am alive I have hope! If I'm dead, I'm just freakin dead. Hell yes, I would take my chances!

mycrofth4 said...

We are constantly being told about how the Republicans risk alienating Hispanic voters because of their stand against illegal immigration, capital punishment, voter id, etc... yet I haven't seen anyone - media or bloggers - concerned about alienating Hispanic voters by describing Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" and persecuting him publicly and criminally for what was originally ruled self-defense.
I also haven't seen anyone concerned about Hispanics rioting over his trial or conviction.
I guess only Republicans can alienate a voter group and Hispanics only riot over soccer games.

rickn8or said...

"...if there's no pictures of Zimmerman with a bloodied face and back of head, he's screwed."

Exactly. I hope Zimmerman hasn't managed to talk his way into a jail cell.

The lesson for all of us is that if we find ourselves in a similar situation the thing to do is "lawyer up" and "shut up!"

dave said...

There are times when listening to a 911 operator can get you killed.

Thomas said...

rickn8or said...

"...if there's no pictures of Zimmerman with a bloodied face and back of head, he's screwed."

Exactly. I hope Zimmerman hasn't managed to talk his way into a jail cell.

The lesson for all of us is that if we find ourselves in a similar situation the thing to do is "lawyer up" and "shut up!"


And if you are bloodied get the police to take pictures, lots and lots of pictures.....

phlegmfatale said...

If I were the cynical girlfriend of a cynical man with a decade or so experience in some part of the criminal justice system, I might put forth that such a prosecutor may have turned on a dime and decided to press charges out of fear for her own life.

But that would be cynical, right? I'm never cynical, am I???

Will said...

One of the tv types had the video of Zimmerman enhanced. Taken at the police station from a security camera? (not sure) Anyway, it was announced that wounds were visible. Why the dumb fuck refused the police offer to be transported to the hospital for his injuries, is going to be a decision he will regret.

Zimmerman's parents have money, IIRC. That is what the Martin family is going after, most likely.

staghounds said...

If I were Mr. Zimmerman I would have gotten my Peruvian Passport and moved to Lima by now.

Goober said...

22LR's last post was absolutely chock-full of excellent wisdom and advice. All you folks out there that seem to be itching to carve a notch in your stock need to read it and understand what he is saying. Avoid if at all possible. At all other costs, except your life or the life of another innocent, because that is what you may very well be giving up in protecting it.

Tam said...

Goober,

You'd think the Zimmerman/Martin incident would have been a brick to the head of gun forum bravado, and yet it persists. There are indeed none so blind as those who will not see.

Everybody imagines that their potential future DGU is going to be against an knife-wielding three-time-loser with neck tattoos crawling through their bedroom window at 0300, and not an unarmed kid on their suburban street.

Montie said...

As I commented here previously, the sole purpose for the "Special Prosecutor" was to insure that charges were filed, and that those charges would be sufficiently heinous so that the Feds (and a certain segment of society) would stop breathing down the neck of the State of Florida. Of course should the outcome not be to their liking the Feds could still come in with charges of their own.

Not that I'm cynical or anything from my long exposure to the criminal justice system, but as lawdog so aptly stated, this gets the defense to jump at a deal that will put the defendant away long enough to assauge public opinion and head off the Feds from trying to take over the case. It's a win/win for everybody except the defendant.

As to the disobeying the orders of the dispatcher issue, generally the only time you can be held criminally liable would be to diobey the lawful order of a police OFFICER (notice I didn't use the word "dispatcher there).

Spud said...

Yes ,you are so right !
Bet ol George wishes he had heeded that advise...

markm said...

Steve said...

"I'll be interested in seeing what new evidence has come up to take this from no charges being filed to murder 2."

See Popehat.com for a criminal lawyer's view of the criminal complaint.

Evidence? We don't need no stinking evidence.