Tuesday, July 06, 2010

When fanboys attack.

ToddG wrote a piece about his experiences watching people using CZ pistols in his training classes.

Apparently it got linked to at CZforums. Hilarity ensues.

Ford vs. Chevy, Mac vs. Windows, whatever, it's amazing how people can get their very egos inextricably intertwined in stuff they bought.

In my experience, full-size CZ-75 pistols in 9mm were pretty reliable guns, especially older ones and especially when shooting good FMJ ammo. The farther away you got from that configuration, the more likely you were to be disappointed. I remember that the initial runs of RAMI subcompacts were as like as not to be disappointing malf-o-matics, and the company's initial forays into .40-caliber guns were nothing short of disastrous, with slide stops that could be engaged by the nose of the next round in the mag, causing premature slidelock, and mag bodies that wouldn't allow a full load of ammunition. And as far as various non-Czech manufactured clones (Tanfoglios, Baby Eagles, Sarsilmaz, et al.) go? Let's just say that quite a lot of them deserve adjectives like "wretched" and "pulsating".

It's been three years now since I got out from behind the glass, and maybe they got those bugs ironed out, but the point of the matter is that it's not blasphemy to note them.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

Go to enough classes and one finds that all guns suck.

Remember the Glock in Louis' class that continually malf'd?

I know that this is just speculation but I wonder if being in Canada, with its restrictive laws, has anything to do with it? People cannot buy as many guns so they shoot the snot out of what they have?

Is it not harder to have your weapons serviced in Canada? I mean you can't just walk into the gunsmith and request a tune up like Sgt. Hondo, right?

Shootin' Buddy

OldeForce said...

My CZ 75 Compact in 9 mm is about 5or 6 years old and works fine.[Mentioned before, with my arthritis I'm moving back toward the 9mm and revolvers.] The .40 had the magazine problem - they would feed 1 or 2 rounds, then stop. You could rattle the rounds that were jammed until they finally fell out. CZ did an exchange, and the .40 is the best shooting of my 3 pistols - the 3rd is a 3" Kimber. And I stay away from chat rooms. I get enough from you and Farmer James - and my next-to favorite librarian. OldeForce

Revolver Rob said...

Never had any complaints about CZ guns when I was slinging them over glass (up to Feb. of this year). Especially the newer ones that are polished pretty well from the factory, but that's not to say they don't suck from time to time.

Given a choice, I'd rather have a CZ over a Taurus over any day of the week.

-Rob

Tam said...

RevolverRob,

"Given a choice, I'd rather have a CZ over a Taurus over any day of the week."

I'll take "Damning With Faint Praise" for $500, Alex. ;)

Justin said...

Tam, it wasn't just the .40 CZs that had the problem with premature slide lock.

The CZ-85 I've been running in Production Division for the last few years suffered from the same problem.

Between grinding the slide stop down to a nub with a Dremel, changing magazine springs, followers, and hand-loading my own ammo I've been able to minimize the problem, but it still happens about once every 600-1,000 rounds or so.

Tam said...

Justin,

Careful, lest you draw the attention of the Zedquisition.

Justin said...

Tam, I already managed to do that a few weeks ago in a "Glock vs. CZ" thread over at THR.org.

I dared to agree with Zak Smith when he pointed out that the Glock pistol is easier to learn and use than the CZ.

Despite the fact that I've been running a CZ in Production Division for around five-ish years or so, and love the design, the fact that I would dare to point out that the Glock is simpler to use was interpreted as my being a Glock fanboy.

It was kind of hilarious.

Lewis said...

Justin:

Given the nature of Glock fanboys, I figure it's better that ten innocents suffer than one Glock fanboy walk around free. (And I even like the Glocks . . . I just don't think Gaston can do the loaves and fishes thing.)

RevGreg said...

I love my old CZ-75BD...it eats anything I feed it and the only consistent malfs were caused by some cheapo mags I bought during the Dark Ages when an actual CZ mag (if you could find one) cost well north of $50...and with replacement mag springs and a bit of work on the followers those became as reliable as it gets too.

On the subject of the 75...if any of you know anyone who has an old Bar-Sto threaded barrel for the 75 laying around I am in full-on covet of one and they have ceased making barrels for the CZ.

Mulliga said...

I like CZs (having CCW'ed both a regular 75 and a P-01) but they are a little quirky. The factory extractor springs tend to be a bit weak out of the box, so after a case or two of ammo, there's a chance you might get some FTEs unless you swap the stock ones out for Wolff springs. Aside from that, I've had no major issues with the design.

In terms of ToddG's post, he's free to say whatever he wants to say - doesn't affect the fit or function of my CZs. Hell, I should thank him for keeping the prices low.

Crustyrusty said...

I had an old CZ-75 pre-wall-going-down vintage that I picked up in Europe and never had a problem with it for 20+ years. It was built like a flippin' tank. Too bad it got stolen. I was pissed, needless to say.

Joe in PNG said...

I've owned a couple (a 75b and a plastic RAMI, both in 9mm)-.
I absolutely loved the full sized 75. Sadly, I had to sell it to come here- but it wound up in good hands.
The RAMI worked wonderfully well with the extended mag, but had a strange delay with the 10 rounder. I sold it too, but don't really regret it.

Jay G said...

Y U B H8N TAM???

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

The Raving Prophet said...

Interesting. I was not aware of widespread CZ reliability issues.

I had a P-01, and it was a great gun. The only reason I sold it was because the DA trigger had an insanely long reach and a mushy feel (single action was just mushy). Accurate and reliable, felt great in the hand, but I'm a 1911 guy, and I went 1911 for my defensive autoloader purposes.

Still, sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have kept it.

ExurbanKevin said...

I think the initial statement was a bit much, "CZ's R TEH SUXOR BUY A GLOCK!" but then again, the pushback may be a bit over the top as well.

If the CZ was good enough for Col. Cooper to use as the basis for the Bren Ten, I figure it's good enough for the rest of us.

- ExKev, proud owner of a CZ75 and P07.

Revolver Rob said...

Tam, thank you. ;)

I want to point something out...'back in the day', you usedta could buy a brand spankin' new CZ75-B for something around 4 bills, this was as recently as three years ago. A new Glock, M&P, or XD could only be had for 5 bills+, making the CZ75 one of the best buys in the Sub-$500 category.

THESE days, a new '75 is going to set you back the equivalent of a new G-lock and if'n you want one of them fancy guns, like a P-01, an aluminum framed model, a Rami, or an SP-01, you better get your wallet out with at least $600 in it. And I have to say, when the price went up to $499.99 with an MSRP over that, I stopped recommending and selling CZs. Because frankly, at $500 you CAN buy a better pistol. It might be polymer and striker fired, but you can buy a better pistol.

I'm probably going to get slammed by the Zednaughts for that, but I'll take my chances. Hell, I covet a friend's SP-01 and I keep looking for one myself, I just haven't found one for a price I'll pay.

-Rob

Hecate said...

I have one of the first P-01's to hit the gun stores around here, and I took it to a thousand-round class once. Didn't even make it to noon on the first day.

Good thing I brought my T-series Hi-Power as well so I had a gun that worked.

Anonymous said...

The comment section was too funny.

I'm fighting of the urge to right CZ owners dress funny and have ugly pets.

Gerry

Darrell said...

I paid $335 for a "Cz" TT45 (had the motorcycle logo on the grip, remember those?), looked identical to a Witness Polymer Compact. Ugly as homemade sin, but it just ran and ran. I sometimes wish I hadn't sold it.

I got rid of a .40 75B a while back, perfectly fine gun but I don't shoot .40 worth a darn. Presently have two 75Bs in 9mm, a PO1 and an Omega, both have been flawless. The Omegas were a limited run, some police department south of the border supposedly ordered them, then declined the shipment. They were selling for $400, great gun for the money. The Omegas supposedly have CZ's new trigger that they'll put in all future guns. It does feel a bit different than a regular 75, a bit softer pull. Also have a 97B, feels big in the hand but it shoots great. I do prefer the metal ones to the plastic versions... I won't even mention the rifles... I loves me some CZs. :P

Unknown said...

I'm a big time CZ fanboy. Own a pile of CZ's. Can't stand Glocks. CZForum member. etc...

and..... ToddG's right. I've never bought a CZ that out-of-the-box would stand up to high volume shooting.

It's gotten to the point where I basically have a damn system for buying them.

A quick and dirty guide for buying a CZ:
1). Find a used CZ that really looks just like a new CZ.
2). Don't bother shooting it. If it worked, the previous owner wouldn't have sold it back so quickly.
3). Replace all the springs. Recoil, magazine, extractor, firing pin. As a gun store clerk friend of mine used to say to his customers: "Oh, the springs that come in CZ's are for demo purposes only. Not for shooting."
4). Get some lapping compound, lap out the finish/coating in the slide and frame rails. That stuff will "feather" as it wears out, catching crud & dirt and drastically limiting the amount of rounds that can be put through it before it starts jamming.
5). Send it back to CZ-USA. Complain about random FTFs and the slide sporadically locking back while shooting. Ask for a). the slide stop to be cut back, b). the slide stop spring to be replaced with a stronger spring, and c). a ramp job.

There you go, now you have a reliable CZ! --just remember to clean under the extractor every few thousand rounds, and froth horribly at the mouth if anyone ever questions it's reliability.

Buffboy said...

Had a couple of the Tanfoglio pistols, a 9 then a 45. Decent pistols. The 9mm was a 100% gun for the ten years I owned it (late 70s to late 80s). The later 45 wasn't great until bought Tanfoglio mags and got rid of the 5 megar POS, then it did well until the spring for the slide lock got weak (10 years, 20k rounds). It would lock the slide at seemingly random intervals before the mag was empty. I never did any grinding, just replaced the spring and it worked fine after. Like nobody's ever replaced a spring with a 1911. Traded it for more than I paid for it new. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones but I think it's more of a squeaky wheel thing. Guys without problems don't complain, then again I didn't run 1k between cleanings either, that's just stupid.

Tam said...

My point has been amply proven. ;)

People generally worry way too much about guns and not enough about shooting.

The Jack said...

I have a pair of CZ 82's

Haven't had a single problem with them in about 15 hundred rounds with one. Thouhg to be fair the backup has only had a couple hundred.

Though that is a very simple blowback design in 9x18mm Makarov

Anonymous said...

Eh. Nothing there particularly impressed me with ToddG's insight into the marque.

I'm hardly a fanboy. I don't even own any CZ pistols anymore. (I didn't like their captive slide and the DA/SA transition. I converted to modern polymer striker guns; M&P, Glock.)

CZs suck with non-brass cased ammo. Keep them away from the Blazer. Otherwise, mine all ran great. All were 9mms; I don't know from the .40s.

I put my P-01 through at least medium duty. Couple of pistol courses, a few IPSC matches. Zero malfunctions.

CZs are also hella accurate for service pistols. This is the upside of the captive slide design.

I like 'em. (I just like my M&P better.)

Anonymous said...

You know what, though? I agree with Brent's comment above: the spring quality in CZs DOES kinda blow. It's not just the pistols, either. Lot of people had probs with their 527 rifle mags.

Better springs is the #1 thing CZ could do to bring the guns up to 21st-c. standards.

Anonymous said...

I thought CZ knockoffs were the beloved pistols of Wookie suiters?

Shootin' Buddy

FatWhiteMan said...

Fanboys crack me up. If they worried half as much about the software as they do the hardware...

Avenger29 said...

"If the CZ was good enough for Col. Cooper to use as the basis for the Bren Ten, I figure it's good enough for the rest of us."

The Bren 10 had several issues. There's a reason that it went out of production. Cooper called the CZ excellent back when the Pre B models were still being made and it was hard as hell to get one over here.

I've purchased two CZs. One 452 .22 rifle, one 75Compact. BOTH had issues. The rifle went back to CZ USA and they did fix it. The 75 Compact had a grip screw crossthreaded into the frame which broke off and could only be fixed by drilling and tapping a new hole, slightly larger. I am glad that I was able to sell the 75Compact with full disclosure, even though I took a big loss.

Put me down as one that doesn't run with the fanboys.

s

Cybrludite said...

I had zero issues with my .45 compact polymer Witness. Hollowpoint, FMJ, brass cased or aluminum, it ate them all. Probably would still be shooting it if I hadn't lost it in Katrina. (Set it down while packing to bug out, and forgot to pick it back up on my way out the door...) Was it a better gun than the 1911 I picked up after the storm? Probably not, though it was easier to conceal.

As for favorites, meh. It's a toolbox. You use what works best for you. Personally, I don't like the grip angle on Glocks, but the new M&Ps fit my hand perfectly. That's why I own an M&P instead of a Glock. If a Glock suits you better, it's no skin off my nose.

Anonymous said...

I've always like the look of the CZ75, just never got around to picking one up.

Since it's gonna be a range toy, it's good to know what I might be getting into if I do.

Joe in PNG said...

So what we have here is a pistol that needs a good bit gunsmith love to work properly, has a hinky extractor, and is only popular due to the writings of Col. Cooper.

But enough about the 1911...