Monday, June 21, 2010

$#*! my Shootin' Buddy says...

...about guns.
  • The less somebody knows about guns, the more they want a derringer.
  • Carbine classes are like fly paper for mall ninjas.
  • High Power shooting is like getting glue injected right into your veins.

If I start a Twitter feed about it, maybe I can get a TeeWee show, too.


New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

Get Sam Elliot to play Shootin Buddy and you might blow the doors off of Shatner's show.

og said...

Shootin buddy isn't grouchy enough. And you'd have to explain the "Fly paper, mall ninja" thing to everyone except gunnies. But you're right, if Justin can parlay his curmudgeon dad into a TV show, you have to be able to do something better to make money with.

Ed Foster said...

Shoot me some of that glue. It's ZEN!

Carteach0 said...

Methinks a stick has just been poked into a nest of some kind.....

Anonymous said...

So, to keep the plot straight, you'd be movin' in with SB and kind of dependent on him?

Yeah, that'll work.

Still, I am interested in further of the series...

$#*! My Shootin' Buddy Says...about:

Gunshow Couture

Republican Superiority

Southern Superiority

Southern Women

Smart Women

Just to name a few. This is gonna be good.


Jay G said...

The easiest cure for someone who wants a derringer is to just let them shoot one...

Doc Merlin said...

'High Power shooting is like getting glue injected right into your veins.'

What does this even mean?

pdb said...

Actually, I think the fastest way to turn a TAPCO shoppin', nylon holster carryin', black ripoff 5-11 wearin' mall ninja into an actual goddamn SHOOTER is to get them out to a carbine class.

The ones that have some level of humility and learn from the experience cease being mall ninjas. The ones that collide with reality and dust themselves off, having noticed nothing... well...

Tam said...


I will point out that someone can shop at Bravo Company and shoot like a house afire and still be a Mall Ninja.

Anonymous said...

"...knows about guns..."

One of the most meaningless and (attempted) condescending blurbs you'll see in many a dscussion; context dependent on just what practical, specific, or seminal knowledge the speaker believes he uniquely possesses.

IMO and FWIW: Anybody who doesn't appreciate the history embodied in big-bore derringers or see the place for an NAA22 doesn't know shit "about guns".


Stranger said...

In fairness, several collectors I know have original Remington .41 Rimfires in shadowboxes on their walls. Ornament, pocket shooting at contact range a la Hicock's murder of Phil Coe, and developing a nearly impossible to cure flinch is about the sum of it for Derringers. Or Deringers, if you prefer.

But that does not stop people who inherit one from trying .41 Magnum ammo in them. It is a good thing the Remington's are rimfire or someone would be missing a hand.

pdb said...

I guess I'm unclear on what mall ninjaery entails. I was under the impression that it was someone who talked big and dressed to impress but couldn't shoot for sour owl jowls.

pdb said...

Anybody who doesn't appreciate the history embodied in big-bore derringers or see the place for an NAA22 doesn't know shit "about guns".

Yeah, I really don't see the place for a unshootable anemic POS that can't reliably pop a RF primer.

Caleb said...

A new NAA Mini costs like $200. You could buy a used K-frame for that, or save up another 100 bucks and buy a used Glock.

But I guess some people would rather carry a a Mini-revolver than a real gun.

Anonymous said...

"I really don't see the place..."

"But I guess some people would rather..."

Both acceptable disclaimers for what would otherwise be innocent or ignorant statements.

When it comes to "knowing shit", about guns or most else, it is good to remember that there is a lot of shit to know, and there are a lot of different kinds of shit that means different shit to different people.


Bram said...

I know the shit I know - some semi-auto rifle stuff, a little pistol and bolt-action rile shooting. And I know that I don't know a lot of other shit - re-loading, anything to do with shotguns, gunsmithing, oldie-time rifles and pistols, etc... So people who do this stuff are okay with me because I'm not obnoxious (most of the time).

Caleb said...

All I know is that people who shoot handguns for blood or money generally frown on derringers and NAA Minis. I mean seriously, a j-frame isn't that hard to conceal.

OA said...

NAA Minis make great last ditch "get off me" guns. That's why more than a few women I know carry them at all times. Of course they aren't hit men or pro shooters, so what the hell do they know, eh?

Anonymous said...

He thinks it might help my Highpower rifle offhand if I inject glue in my veins? What kind of glue?

Caleb said...

OA, that's the problem though - the NAA Minis are hard to shoot, require difficult fine motor control in a stressful situation, and are more anemic than a friggin' .25. So for all of that, why not carry an ultralight J-frame or a Ruger LCR? They're not much bigger, and make a lot more sense as a last ditch "get off me" weapon.

pdb said...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to attach a disclaimer to my statement. I apologize for being unclear.

The NAA Mini is a wretched, hopeless pile of engineering fail that should not be carried by anyone for any serious purpose. For every niche you think the NAA Mini fills, I can suggest a half dozen others that would work better. I have never seen one fire more than a few rounds without a misfire, and I've seen two that went a dozen strikes without igniting a cartridge. The combination of a tiny, weak hammer spring, a tiny hammer and RF priming cannot be made to work reliably enough to be considered for defensive use.

If you cannot accommodate at least a J-frame, then just give up and admit that you don't want to actually carry a gun.

I'd rather have a good knife.


Tam said...

The danger of the NAA Mini is that it can make someone think they are carrying a gun and act accordingly.

The term in the vernacular for marginal pieces is "It beats a handful of nothing," but in the case of the Mini, it only barely beats it, and not always then. I'd much rather have a Gracie preoccupied with trying to shoot me with a NAA Mini Revolver than actually trying to choke me out. At least I can run from the former...

OA said...

Well bless their hearts, if they can't figure out how to operate that style of gun in a stressful situation, lets get them something their little heads can figure out without getting the vapors and needing the fainting couch, eh?

People like what they like. Something is better than nothing (and a NAA Mini against the skull ain't nothing), no matter how much folks puff up and engage in internet cluckery about this being better than that. Hell, want to play that game in regards to cars? kids? spouses? jobs? or just write this off as all too typical internet horseshit on a Monday?

Caleb said...

NAA Mini .22 Mag: Weight, 5.9 ounces unloaded. Barrel length: 1.75 inches. Single action. 5 round capacity. Cylinder must be completely removed from the gun to be reloaded. From that barrel, the a 40 grain .22 Mag round is doing about 850 FPS.

Beretta Jetfire in .25 ACP: weight 9.9 ounces. Barrel length: 2.3 inches. Single action. 9 round capacity and can be easily reloaded with spare magazines. A .25 ACP hollow point is doing about 850/900 FPS out of that barrel.

For 4 MORE OUNCES you get four extra rounds, a much more shootable gun, and the same terminal ballistics. Good god, you're actually better off with the Jetfire than you are with an NAA Mini.

Anonymous said...

"I'd rather have a good knife."

Or a good cup of coffee.

Still, all valid personal anecdotes and opinions. Not buttressed by comparative data of course on the effects of a .22l.r. discharged while jammed under the neck or into the ear of some deserving soul, as opposed to that .25 cannon, or that knife.

Also countered by naked pocket carry for more than thirty years of three or four identical examples in their assigned role of number three, number two, and sometimes even number one position of what's being carried at any given time. Key being, it is *always* there. I'm guessing that's a statement most who carry cannot truthfully say about their chosen device. Further, I've never had one *not one* ftf that wasn't traced to problem ammo, and when I've needed factory service a few times, it was amazing.

But, if you wanna say those ugly black tackdrivers have no place among serious shooters, and actually hurt our cause...well, now you're onto something.


pdb said...

People like what they like. Something is better than nothing (and a NAA Mini against the skull ain't nothing), no matter how much folks puff up and engage in internet cluckery about this being better than that.

Uh, no. The problem is that you didn't spend "nothing" to get the NAA Mini, and you could have gotten a gun for the same price.

A J-frame would work even better against a nefarian's skull, and do a whole lot other better and more reliably too.

Look, a lump of metal doesn't become a death ray just because it throws a projectile. The NAA Mini is demonstrably unreliable, difficult to work and anemic when it does. These are not opinions.

OA said...

I don't own a NAA Mini. I do however feel people should be able to buy what ever they damn well please, even if some know it all on the internet knows better (yet I'm guessing they wouldn't be willing to use their skulls as the target with a Mini pressed against it).

Tam said...


There used to be another reader here who commented under the name "OA", but I guess you're new. To clarify for y'all who just arrived, I totally believe people should be able to buy whatever they damn well please. Hell, they can buy and carry a bottle of lemon juice and no, I won't volunteer to let them squirt me in the eye with it.

Anonymous said...

What SB sez is based on observable universal truths which are revealed to me.

The obession over derringers is observable at any gun store. Those buying the $50 Davis derringers are not the most knowledge of the gun culture as a general rule.

There are exceptions but that is the rule. I just reduce the rules to words, I don't make them.

People can carry and shoot as they wish. This is America, or at least it used to be. :-)

Shootin' Buddy

Caleb said...

No, I would not volunteer to take a bullet from an NAA mini. That's not the point. Also, I agree that people should be (and are allowed) to buy whatever gun they want. But just because you're allowed to buy an NAA Mini doesn't mean you should.

A .25 is a compromise. It fits in a pocket and can be carried anywhere. A .32 is a compromise. It's a little bigger and has less ammo, but can be carried anywhere. A .45 ACP is a compromise. It's not a .308, but it's a lot easier to tote a 1911 in the grocery store than an AR10.

No one is going to volunteer to take a bullet from anything unless they're stupid. The point is that there are a lot better choices for delivering that bullet than a small gun that is EXTREMELY difficult to shoot well.

OA said...

"The point is that there are a lot better choices for delivering that bullet than a small gun that is EXTREMELY difficult to shoot well."

No, the point is that those better choices (of which, there are many) aren't worth a damn if they're at home. It doesn't matter if they shouldn't be at home, it doesn't matter if someone carries the Mini because it's cute or just has a thing for it, what matters is that it's there when it's needed and it will kill someone dead if they're close enough to get their pecker wet. That's it, that's all.

Kristopher said...

Why all this hate on derringers and NAA minis?

I carry both. I keep an NAA as a pocket piece, and carry a Smith airweight.

And no my NAA does not have problems going bang, PDB. That is an opinion, btw.

And Caleb ... some of us can afford to buy any damned weapon we really want to have.

Caleb said...

/me headdesks. Kris, I never said that you shouldn't buy an NAA mini if you just have to have one. But if you're buying a defensive firearm and can only afford X dollars, than I'd strongly discourage someone from using their hard earned cash on one.

Look at it this way: someone is buying their first car. Which would you recommend, a manual transmission Micro-car that has a reputation for being finicky about fuel, maintenance, and is considered "difficult to drive" by Car and Driver? Or for slightly more money, would you recommend a Honda/Toyota/Ford that is easy to get fixed, driver friendly, blah blah blah.

Tam said...


While the niche of the classic Over&Under derringer is largely Gone With The Wind (in that I can't think of much of anything a Bond Arms .45 will do that can't be done better by something else, short of "be all cool and derringer-shaped") the NAA Mini still has a role. But it is a very tiny and sharply-defined role, and much of its previously-occupied turf has been usurped by guns like the Kel-Tec P-32 et cetera.

Back in the '90s, I knew more than one cop who carried an NAA Mini as a third gun in a boot top, on a shoelace around their neck, or even in a cigarette pack in their shirt pocket. Thing is, other than "in a cigarette pack", every one of those roles can be filled by a 6- or 7-shot .32 or .380 these days...

Anonymous said...

Once upon a time I had an instructor ask who was carrying a BUG. As we were all Tacticool we all raised our hands proudly.

Instructor said what kind?

G-26, Kahr, Seacamps, J frames, Tomcat, NA arms, Keltecs yadyadayada.

Instructor, Ok at the signal draw and fire your bug until empty. GO!

After that exersise most folks got rid of the tiny pistols and revolvers and upgraded.

The tiny guns were tough to deploy and had a high rate of failure to fire. Some were so concealed you would have bled out before you got a shot off.

Several had a tough time hitting COM at 5 yards.

Yes if you want to by a 22lr for self defense go right ahead.


Gewehr98 said...

Long-time NRA High Power shooter/competitor here. Still trying to figure out that glue/veins comment, myself. More solid in the offhand hold vs. slinging up tight, perhaps? I've long since cut out caffeine before matches, but I'll try anything, maybe even intravenous glue, to get more rounds into the X-ring.

BTW, Tam, check your PM @ TFL...

Lewis said...


J-frames are just for people who haven't discovered the awesome-sauce that is the Colt D-frame! Long live the Cobra! (I'm just funnin', I don't mean no harm. Hey, I like D-frames, and the J-frame is just small enough to seem kind of uncomfortable and toy-like when I'm holding it . . . but that's just me, and I don't snicker at the J-frame, there's just something I like better.)

Will said...

Only actual case I know of a derringer being shot for blood, was a senior citizen in a robbery of a barbershop a couple years ago. Two BG's. When they told the customer and barbers to get on the floor, the old guy drew the gun (.22mag, IIRC) from his back pocket (it had been concealed with a snot rag). Both dropped instantly from head shots, the one standing right next to him survived. This was in the South East (Atlanta?).

Joe in PNG said...

My personal $.02 on the NAA (and worth less than the sticker price):

Thought they were the coolest thing ever for most of my life, until I actually fired one.
At that point I found out that my hands are waay too big to hold one of those little guys properly. I had to lay my thumb across the top of the cylnder and barrel to get it to work.

So I'll stick with my Baby Browning .25.

Anonymous said...

"it can make someone think they are carrying a gun and act accordingly."

If that someone is taking his behaviorial cues from whether or what he's carrying, then yes that is a danger.

Also, there's a scenario role reversal in your example. Gracie is up in your face and you can't retreat and damn it, you wish you hadn't left your Glock on the dresser...but your heart warms a bit as your hand closes around your naa that is in your pocket because it is *always* in your pocket, and things escalate with Gracie such that she goes for the choking you out approach, then that little treasure, out of your pocket and under her chin going bang all in one motion...that's what the naa is for.

YOMV and YMMV, but as for myself, if my primary carryon ain't at the moment being carried on, you just keep your knife or your nothing, and me and my little naa will just keep to ourselves as we always have, unless and until we are needed.

p.s. Last I heard, hundred year old .32's were not the recommended top choice for personal defense CCW...but then they do have that "time machines" thing going for them, don't they? As do those iconic old o/u Remmies...


pdb said...

And no my NAA does not have problems going bang, PDB. That is an opinion, btw.

You're a lucky, lucky man. Buy many lottery tickets?

Caleb said...

Al, the problem with your example is that you're using that .22 as a contact weapon. That means that Mr. 230lb mugger is probably going to be in physical contact, and trying to do his best to keep you from screwing said muzzle into his ear the same way he'd be trying to keep you from shoving a knife in his ear.

Personally, I don't want a gun whose most effective range is measured in inches.

Tam said...


1) "...if my primary carryon ain't at the moment being carried on, you just keep your knife or your nothing, and me and my little naa will just keep to ourselves..."
If my primary carry isn't on me, then a J-frame is. If a J-frame isn't, then the metal detector found your NAA, too.

2)"...and things escalate with Gracie such that she goes for the choking you out approach..."

Gracie. I guess it could have been Kyra.

Caleb said...

I'm pretty sure Kyra could beat my ass just as handily as Royce or Helio.

blindshooter said...

High Power Rifle and glue.....there was a build up of pounds of the stuff on the M-14 I started out with. It's what happens when you weigh 130 lbs and what to clean sitting rapid soooo bad you could taste it. Now they start the string already in position and the black guns don't recoil enough for anybody to try to glue themselves to the earth and the rifle. Tiny little kids can shoot cleans at 200 rapid's not a "manly" game any longer. (runs and hides from the current HP shooters)

D.W. Drang said...

We had a Davis .380. It did for what we wanted at the time. We also have a Frontier Arms mini--which NAA copied off of. I occasionally carry it when it's hot enough that I don't want to change out of my shorts for a quick trip to the store. But, between Mrs. Drang's Keltec PF9 and my J Frame, I don't carry it any more

Anonymous said...

"If my primary carry isn't on me, then a J-frame is."

I gotta tell ya, you're a lot more dedicated than most CCW holders, and that includes me.

I have daily access to a Glock 30, an old Colt Cobra that I love like a child, an S&W 60 in .357M, a new-gen LCP and my NAA22LR. I usually have the Colt on me when I'm out. If I'm taking a road trip the Glock is my truck gun. The J is my wife's but I have a good paddle for it and carry it sometimes. The Ruger (actually got two of these from a dealer friend when they were in short supply), stands a good chance of taking over daily duty from that one-pound Cobra that is as old as I am and could use some rest. It may lack the oomph of the +P's but it is just so flat and small and light and simple that I have a hard time justifying not taking it and making me less likely to uh, leave home without it.

Which will reduce further the likelihood of ever having to resort to the upcloseandpersonal forte of the tiny revolver that will keep its place in my pocket, from where it has provided confidence and comfort many times over many years.

"I've got my pants on, don't I?" my Dad would say when I or one of my brothers asked him if he had his knife with him. That's how it is for me with my North American. It is my knife. It is my friend.

I missed the Gracie reference by a mile, but I believe either scenario is made better for you if you have your NAA in lieu of nothing. But since you *always* have at least your J-frame (.32 H&R Mag?) on you, that is a non-issue. You are indeed an amazing woman.


ASM826 said...

A lot of comments about derringers, which are right there on the list of guns I don't want to get shot with, but still not the firearm I would choose to carry.

Not enough discussion about intravenous glue and high power shooting. Because if he has some secret way to make my rifle still in the off-hand position, I want to hear more about it. Or is he saying he thinks high power shooting is boring?

There's no shooting sport I've tried I think is boring. Most are very difficult and proficiency is the result of many hours of practice and box after box of ammo sent downrange. I don't shoot true high-power or ultra long range, but I do shoot Garand Matches, and find them interesting and challenging.

RevolverRob said...

I dunno...the more I learn and know about guns, the more I want a derringer.

It's just one of those things..."Hmm, I don't have a gun that recoils so violently it makes me want to slam my hand in a car door instead. I should get one."

I can here and read 48 least 20 of them looked like I was reading a THR 9mm v. .45 debate.


Joe in PNG said...

And, here in New Guinea, where only the outlaws have guns, I would be more than happy to have an NAA, a Davis, or pretty much any working gun with ammo.

Gotta safe full of cool guns back in the US of A, and miss them all.

Anonymous said...

(sniff,sniff)I smell a postal match. One shot with the aforementioned guns of sneer. Two shot O/As and five shot minis. Anyone care to flesh out the details?

Bubblehead Les. said...

Joe in PNG: Knives, hatchets,axes, sharpened entrenching tools, 1 inch pipe, cricket bats, bug spray (poor man's pepper spray), pick w/handle shortened, anything that will help keep you alive until you get back to U.S.A.

mcthag said...

I own a lot of impractical guns because I think they are kewl. I just don't carry them!

When talking about size a SIG P238, Kel-Tec P3AT, or Ruger LCP are all about the same size as that Jetfire, and in the much more powerful .380. Florida gets hot enough that even a J frame is hard to conceal without getting heat stroke; but it's doable.

My 640 is not easy to shoot, but it's easier than the NAA a "friend" swears by. I have watched that thing fail at the range. Cocking it means changing your grip radically and once your five rounds are gone, you have to take it apart to reload.

Another NAA peculiarity: Ever notice how people who bought the magnum version always seem to quote the published velocity for a 22" barrel?

Yes, the gun that you have on you trumps the gun at home in the safe; but as someone said, "bring enough gun".

Joe in PNG said...

Did you know that open carry of bush knives is pretty normal custom round here? And really good Brazillian made bush knives are plentiful and cheap... cheap enough to stash at least one in each vehicle.

Hey, I need some sort of tool to open kulaus (green coconuts)- an all natural version of gatoraid.

Ian Argent said...

@Caleb: "Which would you recommend, a manual transmission Micro-car that has a reputation for being finicky about fuel, maintenance, and is considered "difficult to drive" by Car and Driver?" Assuming you're referring to the Smart; oddly enough, I would. But then, I don't agree with the "difficult to drive" comment, premium fuel isn't that hard to find, and while I have both changed my own oil and (drum) brakes, these days any car is going to a professional for maintenance beyond that anyway. That having been said, I wouldn't recommend it as their ONLY car; I use mine as a commuter seat and we have a sedate sedan for the times we need to pack more than a grocery cart worth of cargo (or passengers).

But then, I was given (more or less - in exchange I became the family chauffeur) a 6y.o. Izuzu Pup 4-banger stickshift in white the day I turned 16. My father's logic (and apparently the insurance co agreed, based on the merely extortionate premiums) was that a mini-pickup didn't have enough seating in the cab to truly distract the driver, white is the safest automobile color (or was at the time - I don't know why), and a mildly underpowered stickshift would both keep me out of trouble in the overspeed dept and make it vanishinly unlikely (even 20 years ago) that any of my friends could drive the damn thing. Assuming they're still available when and if, I plan to provide my offspring with something along those lines myself; and the Smart has the additional advantage of not being abel to pack 10 teens into the cargo bay (admittedly, at the cost of a true stickshift. I'll admit that not having to work the clutch is nice in stop&go traffic, though)

Nothing in this comment should be taken as an endorsement of Deringers, however. They make pretty pieces of smitten art, and are nice and historical like. Wouldn't carry one on a bet that anyone I know is likely to make.

Diesel said...

I have had 3 carbine classes now, all of which had Pat Rogers as instructor.

No mall ninjas were in attendence.

They cannot clear the required vetting process, which is to not be on Pat's NFE list, which, due to how long he has been doing his thing, is quite lengthy.

Zendo Deb said...

I'm with whoever was wanting an explanation of the high-power/glue in veins remark.

"like I was reading a THR 9mm v. .45 debate."

I would just like to state for the record that chocolate is completely inferior to vanilla. (At least as far as ice cream is concerned.)

People buy all kinds of impractical things. Black powder pistols. Reproduction flint-lock rifles. .50 caliber rifles. (there isn't a range long enough within reasonable distance of my home for something like this.) Reproductions of old-west rifles and shotguns and six-shooters. (My personal favorite impractical possession is "boats." I own 2.)

Joel said...

My NAA mini is cute and shiny and lives in my weak-hand pocket when I'm in the city.

I've had it since sometime in the mid-eighties, and while it's a PITA to shoot and I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that it's never my only gun, it has never once in 25 years failed to go bang - which is why I keep it around.

My great hope is that, if I'm ever forced to actually draw it, my opponent will be so distracted by his fit of laughter that I can make a quick, safe getaway.

Will said...

could happen. A plainclothes officer attached to a dynamic entry was wandering down a hallway when a BG stepped out of a room ahead of him with a shotgun. He whipped out his handgun, realized his clipon holster had come with it, and had to knock it off the gun. The BG got to laughing, and ended up on the floor, he was laughing so hard.

Tam said...


"I have had 3 carbine classes now, all of which had Pat Rogers as instructor.

No mall ninjas were in attendence.

Pat Rogers is an excellent instructor. He is also among the most powerful flypaper for mall ninjary. (Although you may have a different term for slightly overweight middle-aged insurance executives who spend a weekend dressed like a SEAL in downtown Fallujah when, in fact, if they ever use their carbine in real life, they'll be wearing a bathrobe and slippers and their dump pouch will be on the other side of the house.)

Jerry said...

Well, I don't claim a vast knowledge about guns. I've wanted a derringer since my Cowboy and Indian days. They always seemed to pop out at just the right time and could be hidden anywhere.

I didn't want a 45/410, just a little, but adequate caliber that would still have a punch from such a short barrel. I got a 9mm.

My experience has been quite educational. The trigger doesn't pull/squeeze back, it pulls down. I solved that by "rolling" my finger under the barrel to the trigger that produced a downward movement to release the sear and fire the cartridge.

I do believe that there is quite a bit of recoil absorbed by the slide when you fire a standard 9mm handgun. When I fired the little derringer the first time I thought it might have blown up, the recoil was so harsh. The second shot was pretty much the same.

I don't hate the derringer. I think it might even have a good purpose, close up and last resort. For everyday carry I'll stick with my PPK or in cooler weather my 1911.

Ed Foster said...

Blind shooter: That's why they have traditional military rifle matches. I'm building a cheater at the moment.

I've gotten to the age where I need the peep sight, and all my '17Enfields have been converted to something or other else, so I took a Springfield '03 action, cut the dovetail off an M-1 Carbine rear sight (same as a Springfield dovetail), EB welded it on the bridge, and am making up my "new" Springfield 03A3 on a Boyt stock and a Shaw barrel that shoots suprisingly well.

It should be fine, as long as nobody gets fussy about the serial number....