Saturday, July 16, 2011

On brain drains and foot voting...

Samizdata has an interesting post (which links to other interesting posts) on the current state of world migrations and what it says about where they come from, as well as where they go.
The UK features in the top ten both for migration in and emigration out. That is a telling fact, is it not?
I think a detailed breakdown of those numbers would be interesting. A nation that steadily swaps newly-minted physicians and software engineers with imported cab drivers on a one-for-one basis is destined for trouble down the road.

(And before anybody can slap down the "That's racist!" card, I would note that yes, the cabby's kid may indeed become a physician or software engineer himself, which will do his homeland no good if he immediately lights out for better prospects elsewhere, to be replaced on the census rolls by yet another imported cab driver.)


DaddyBear said...

More likely the son of the cab driver will become overeducated, listen to the local terrorism recruiter/religious instructor, and become a cancer to his country.

Tam said...

"More likely..."?

I'm pretty sure that universities in the UK turned out more, say, urologists than suicide bombers by at least an order of magnitude.

Alan said...

You don't have to go to another country to see the affects of brain drain. Just look at rural communities in the US. Anyone that can leaves for better opportunities elsewhere.

How 'Ya Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm? (After They've Seen Paree)

Divemedic said...

I am not sure how valid that chart is, since it lists Puerto Rico as a major source of immigration to the USA, without recognizing that Puerto Rico is part of the United States.

With that kind of obvious error, it makes me doubt the accuracy of the rest of the data.

alcade said...

Another problem, in my opinion, are immigrants who are simply in the country for a job, and have no vested interest in seeing that the current and future state of the nation remain strong. I work with a few immigrants, both legal US citizens, and in order not to seem racist let's say they are from a made-up country like... oh I don't know, "Nexico." Both these men have told me that once they retire, they are going to take their earnings back to Nexico to live like kings. One already has quite a bit of farmland in his native country, and may retire relatively early. I certainly don't begrudge them the choices of their earnings, but I do recognize the fact that it is quite possible that those of similiar planning probably don't care much about whether all these entitlement programs bankrupt the country - so long as they get out in time.

Alan J. said...

Hmmmm, kind of reminds me of the current trends in California. Higly taxed society with very generous welfare/public assistance programs enticing lots of low skill immigrants to pour in, and high value/highly productive people that want lower taxes moving out. Gee, how do you think that's going to turn out in the long run?

Anonymous said...

NPR had a recent teary lament from 16 yo Alicia Martinez whose parents and siblings came here illegally and birthed her...

Are her tears in gratitude for the opportunities given -or rather taken- here that so improved her chances for a good life as opposed to the hopelessness she otherwise faced? was all about how hard everything was, how hard her parents worked, how angry she was at "having to stand in line for free food" -yeah that's a direct quote-, how *sniff!* mean people were to her, and if you can believe it, her anger at her folks for bringing her here.

That would be our in-migration...and our bleak future, because there ain't no out-migration here.

So which of us, UK or US, is killing ourselves better? Well, they've got a head start, but we're gainin' on 'em.


Ed Rasimus said...

It's not a simple problem. I don't disagree with your characterization of the UK. Clearly the last vestige of colonial days, the right to British citizenship, is costing their culture dearly. It isn't much different in France where half of Paris is burning occasionally.

But in the US it is quite often the reverse. There isn't much outward movement and a lot of the immigration is our dedicated import of doctors, scientists and engineers who are eager to work here and fill the void by our limited access medical and scientific training programs.

We've got a couple of generations of young Americans who can't read, can't write a meaningful sentence and haven't figured out the idea of corporate dress or a work ethic.

Want a full day's work out of a craftsman? Want him to show up every day on time? I'd hint that you might hablar some Espanol down in front of the home improvement store.

Why do you find southwest Asians predominant in small motel management and east Asians running the local Kwik-Mart?

Anonymous said...

@Ed Rasimus:

"...a lot of the immigration is our dedicated import of (professionals)..."

That is supported anecdotally here in central Fla when one seeks medical care, etc., but of course the pure numbers are a tiny percentage of the actual influx.

Hispanics now account for the majority of births here, paradoxically attracting those professional who themselves are actually more effect than cause as they meet the need for services demanded by that majority...and which are provided largely at taxpayer expense.

And while the work ethic truism is accurate for now, just reference my comment above -or visit any public school- to witness the attitude of entitlement that we are cultivating in second-generation immigrants to see a future overwhelmed by another version of the home-grown slovenly illiterates you reference.

Man, it's almost as if something is causing that shit.


staghounds said...

The immigrants by and large are good Americans.

Their children? Depends upon whom they imprint- hard working parents, or their children of the government peers and teachers.

Anonymous said...

Let's see your ass off to earn an honest living and support your family, or get everything for free with no effort, no risk, and no expectations of productivity or self-sufficiency...just a vote.


Anonymous said...

...and your soul of course. AT

Anonymous said...

This demographic change is occurring throughout the Western world, including here in Australia. It's a far bigger story with far greater consequences than anything I've seen in the news.
Perhaps Caucasians deserve to lose out in the Darwin stakes since we're doing all we can to disappear into history. We certainly can't blame others for taking up the role we can't be bothered to hold onto.
As a footnote, my son just completed a week long series of HS math, physics and chem. school vacation tutorials at the local university. He and one other kid were the only non Asians in the place.

greg said...

Heinlein sort of alludes to what you are getting at in 'Time Enough for Love'...he states his opinion that during any off-world(substitute out of country) migration, the people leaving are going to come from the intelligent/motivated side of the bell curve...The Brain, meaning what is left behind will just thrash that much harder before dying.

Tam said...

Anon 8:27,

Please forgive me for saying that you are a fucking retard for believing that Western Culture is somehow carried in the pigmentation genes. A glance at any U.S. Supreme Court decision over the last decade would seem to indicate that acknowledgment of individual human rights is directly proportional to the amount of melanin in the skin: The paler the Justice, the bigger the statist. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

You're welcome to stay off my side.

Murphy's Law said...

I noticed way back in undergrad that the majority of students who were studying in the library late into the night were Asian and Middle-Eastern students, with a sprinkling of Eastern Europeans thrown in. Where were all of the home-grown kids?
And when it came to the graduate-level programs, who was predominating in the scientific, engineering and medical programs? Those same Asians, Middle-Eastern and Eastern European students. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see who really wanted it. The average white or black native-born student that I knew at that time just wanted a 4-year degree and out the door, but of the foreign-born students that I knew, most were seriously focused on getting a graduate-level education because their life experiences in their old countries had taught them the value of an education. Some planned to go home upon getting their degree, and others planned to stay here. But all of them were dead serious about getting every last bit of education that they could. I wish that I could have said the same about most of my native-born peers.

Until we start motivating our K-12 students to work that hard and excel to that extent, we can count on having our butts kicked by students from other countries who want it worse and are willing to put the effort in to get it. And I say more power to them for striving to achieve. Rather than hold them back or exclude them, I would like to motivate our own native-born students to work like that.

I'm all for legal immigration of educated professionals or students studying in fields that we need. But sadly, for every one of them we get legally, we also seem to get a few thousand illiterate and unskilled aliens, including gang members and anchor baby breeders who just come here illegally to milk the system. Those are the ones that we need a fence and harsh laws to deter.

Lewis said...


Having already played your "thass raciss" card, are you ready to play your "Lewis, you're missing the point AGAIN" card?

I have cut'n'pasted anon o' 8:27's post as I read it in its entirety below:

This demographic change is occurring throughout the Western world, including here in Australia. It's a far bigger story with far greater consequences than anything I've seen in the news.
Perhaps Caucasians deserve to lose out in the Darwin stakes since we're doing all we can to disappear into history. We certainly can't blame others for taking up the role we can't be bothered to hold onto.
As a footnote, my son just completed a week long series of HS math, physics and chem. school vacation tutorials at the local university. He and one other kid were the only non Asians in the place.


Unless my reading comprehension is vastly poorer than I believe, or unless anon has somehow edited his comments, could you point out to me, please, just where he said pigmentation genes have jack squat to do with Western culture?

That Western men created Western culture seems to me to be pretty much a truism, a tautology. It's like saying, "Chinese men created Chinese culture." (Here I shall use a Churchillism: the male embraces the female.)

Are there some racist code-words I'm missing, here?

Lewis said...

For Ed Rasimus in particular, and everyone in general. (But then, doesn't saying "everyone in general" comprise some un-needed redundancy?

Once there was a city. The city was composed, as cities are, of certain demographic elements. This was a city that had some importance. It was not a backwater. It rose from nearly nothing to being very, very important in geo-political weight, in artistic weight, in cultural weight, in scientific weight. It was the Big Apple of its day, the London of its day. But, history being what it is, eventually the city declined. It fell upon hard times.

There were some demographic changes. Actually, a lot of demographic changes.

You could call it, I guess, "white flight," an early instance of such.

After the demographic changes, the city clawed its way back up from the abyss. There were changes, sure. The street vendors served different food. The language in the bazaars was different. Same city, though. Same grid square, same GPS coordinates.

It rose, again, to power. Never, exactly, to the same power that it had had previously, but power, still, and not a little of it. Power geopolitically, artistically, culturally, scientifically. The city's orientation changed: new markets took the place of old, new allies took the place of old, that kind of thing.

Improvise, adapt, overcome. Amirite?

I wonder.

Does it matter? Some people would say, "Hey, the city's coming back! It's nice to see that, man, it's just like, or almost just like, it used to be, and of course things change, but still, the city, it's an important city."

Yeah I've been vague about the city. It's a city you all know, at least by name. (Hey, we haven't all been to Paris, amirite?) A city you all know, at least by names.


Tell me.

Istanbul was Constantinople now it's Istanbul. No you can't go back to Constantinople.

People just liked it better that way? Who liked it better that way? Oh, the "people" liked it better that way.

Well, the Turks liked it better that way. (The Byzantines, not so much.) The Turks, they liked it better that way by way of the shamshir, the kilic, the sipahi, the janissary and the catapult. Now, don't get me wrong: I like the Turks. To use mafia terminology, they made their bones the old fashioned way. They earned it. They wanted it more, they had better tactics, they had better strategy, they took it, and they kept it.

You have to respect that.

Brother Ottoman took Constantinople in 1453---and it's still Turkish. Five hundred some odd years, holding on to a choice piece of real estate? Respect, peace, out.

So is it the same city?

After all, if things are going poorly, cannot the government simply elect a new people?

Julie said...

I'm with Lewis ... must have missed something in Anon's post ...

Tam said...


I was in an irritable mood.

I'll explain later what I meant, but without all the cussing. That was rude and uncalled for on my part.

Anonymous said...

"...cannot the government simply elect a new people?"

Speaking of "bones", that little gem just chilled the fuck right out of mine, because that is just exactly what is happening here, whether by design or...?

I'll wait to see the promised explanation of your (over)reaction to a perceived racist slant, before reiterating my own opinion on immigration most recently offered in an highly ironic venue.


Anonymous said...

Real surprised by your response to my post. I didn't mind the cussing but was disappointed with your poor logic and PC version of history Neither is something I'll be reading again. By By.

Tam said...

Well, 'bye...