Wednesday, January 29, 2014

Derp Still Sells: An Unfortunately Ongoing Series.

So there's some new gimmick bullet out whose makers followed the trail blazed by the mythical "Black Rhino" round: Shotgun out a press release full of hyperbolic claims, get the press worked into a lather, and... I dunno, it gets pretty Underpants Gnome-y from there. Maybe this is trolling for investors?

Anyhow, to anybody with a shred of knowledge about terminal ballistics, everything about these things is risible; from the part where it sheds most of its weight as underpenetrating fragments on impact to the part where the core goes on to leave a pencil-like wound track to the fact that the video tests don't appear to be in calibrated 10% ordnance gel anyway, so all the numbers they're throwing out seem to be pointless. Basically, what these dudes appear to have done is to have taken a bullet design with a proven track record, the Barnes solid copper XPB, and used an EDM machine or something to break it so it doesn't work right anymore.

Anyhow, the problem with this is that it has been shotgunned out to the conservative blogosphere, because conservatives are gun enthusiasts, right? And this has triggered firearms-related discussions in the comments of certain conservative blogs that are certainly... enthusiastic.

My soul hurts.

Jesus wept, this is why I hardly talk about guns on the internet anymore. The level of gun stupid in the comments sections at The Blaze, AoS, or Instapundit makes me long for the raw technical competence and hard factual knowledge of, say, your average Brand-Specific Fanboi or State-Level Gun Enthusiast forum like GlockTalk or INGO.

And then, of course, someone will wade in and denounce this bullet as a Joke Hyperbole Projectile, and my heart will soar, and then they'll turn around and say "What you really need is Black Talon!" and my soaring heart will plummet like a paralyzed falcon, because a twenty-year-old discontinued Gen 2 JHP design is apparently still a name to conjure with, thanks to the Winchester marketing department and the American media.

I actually saw a debate in one of these threads between proponents of Black Talons and Hydra-Shoks. No doubt everybody then jumped into their 5.0 GTs and drove off with Red Hot Chili Peppers CDs blaring from the speakers. Hey, 1991 called; it wants its ammo back.

To return to the original topic, massive strides have occurred in projectile design in the last twenty years. This bullet is not one of them. It's worth noting that the press release isn't even right when it says "The last round you'll ever need" because the last round you'll ever need is some goofy multipiece bullet that spins its bits on fishing line. This is just the second-to-last round you'll ever need.

46 comments:

Ancient Woodsman said...

That couldn't have been a 5.0 GT. Seems to me that guys who espouse such ammunition are the same crowd that would go to great lengths to convince one that their EXP is superior to the Escort GT, and how in minute detail. Maybe they want a 5.0 GT, have the Mustang posters on the wall at home and sales flyers on the back seat of their current car, but the closest they ever seem to get to that Mustang is having a 'Mustang' fob for the keys to their EXP.

They were - and are - out there, and they will buy this ammo.

Tam said...

Ancient Woodsman,

The 5.0GT was a ref to the Hydra-Shok vs. Black Talon discussion, seeing that those two bullets were state-of-the-art...

...in 1991.

For some reason, both remain buzzwords to conjure with today.

Anonymous said...

LSWC in a caliber that starts with 4 is all you need anyway. ;)

Actually, I've been kind of stuck in 2006 ever since Speer released their "short barrel" Gold Dot load for the 38special. That's what I've used as my carry load for my j-frame ever since. It's available, accurate, has a proven track record, and is relatively inexpensive. They'll do until I decide to change platforms.

Chris

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

So what do YOU feed YOUR gat when it's loaded for social purposes.

Jim said...

I'd really love to see a line of gear sold under a properly trademarked "Tactical Derp" branding.

Now, whether to sell real gear at high quality and value, or some real "Derp!", as a joke, would be the tough call.

But, just thinking about the advertising snark warms the evil, soul shaped void inside. ;-)



Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Roger said...

Some people will buy them. The libtards will moan and cry about the inhumane bullets. New Jersey, New York, California and Chicago will ban them. There will be MSM articles about them.
They will cost a lot and fail to feed in autoloaders then slowly fade away, leaving some folks maundering about how "great" they were and how the govt. banned them.
Meanwhile, most of us will be carrying the ammo the FBI uses or at least what our local police force uses.

Tam said...

NJT,

"So what do YOU feed YOUR gat when it's loaded for social purposes."

Something on sale off this list.

Currently it's 127gr +P+ Ranger-T.

Anonymous said...

A good reference on self-defense ammunition:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

Boat Guy said...

Boy howdy was the broadcast far and wide! I got it forwarded by a coworker. Since I'm one of the "old guys" at work I did respond with "Sounds like a Black Talon, I'll pass."
I did just get several boxes of hard-cast .38 snubby ammo from Buffalo Bore, though. Hadn't been able to find it on any shop shelf in my town.

Erich505 said...

Thank you, Tam. Wow, have I been sick of hearing about this stupidity. Glad to hear a grown-up for once.

Matt said...

That new ammunition has been a hot topic among my associates. The general conclusion is that they will pass and stick with proper bullets. Way to gimmicky and looks like a legal nightmare.

AuricTech said...

"The last round you'll ever need" is the one to which Kipling alludes in the last stanza of this poem.

Keith said...

I'll just leave this here in case you have a burning desire for more tactical derp (TM).

http://www.mibullet.com

Tam said...

Keith,

"...the last round you'll ever need is some goofy multipiece bullet that spins its bits on fishing line."

Keith said...

Damn it I thought you were talking about a round to actually fish with. I occasionally feel like one of the aspies you tell jokes to.

Jennifer said...

'Looks mean' should never be a selling point. We figured out how to test and prove the effectiveness on flying balls of lead a while back. I get real cynical when some new shiny doesn't even mention the standard testing methods.
I'm going to go make some nachos and watch as the fleet of lawyers descends after this derp gets someone killed.

perlhaqr said...

Re: mibullet

I remember when I invented that round as a joke in Bobbi's comments section, something about taking out microdrones. Only mine had *eight* segments, so it's clearly still 2.666 times better than those. ;)

azmountaintroll said...

Isn't "Tactical Derp" redundant?

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

"Something on sale off this list."

That list is full of Federal 'HST'

Doesn't the HS of HST stand for Hyrda-Shok? I'm confused.

Tam said...

HST is not Hydra-Shok, no.

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

Huh... Just found out the difference between HST and Hydra Shok. Learned something today.

Anonymous said...

This is the shake weight of the ammunition world.

Keith said...

This round just made the Drudge Report. This should be good.

Dave in Indiana said...

Instapundit has a comments section?

Scott J said...

Glad to see Golden Saber made the list. But not .45 for some reason. I like it in 9, .45 and .357. Also .380 when I can find it.

Brad K. said...

I am confused.

I would have thought that they were right. Isn't the "last bullet you will ever need" the one you bet your life on, and lost? Sounds like this one would be a good candidate for the last round fired before ceasing to breathe.

John Michaels said...

Well played sir. My compliments.

John Michaels said...

Well played sir. My compliments.

Joe in PNG said...

Of course, how many gunnies have even made it to 1991, gear wise?

cj said...

Meh. Needs more lightning bolts in their marketing. And guys in black masks of some type.

Robert Fowler said...

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...
So what do YOU feed YOUR gat when it's loaded for social purposes.

I feed mine Hornady 185gr JHC XTP (extreme terminal performance). In .45 ACP of course.

Joe in PNG said...
Of course, how many gunnies have even made it to 1991, gear wise?

I've made it to 1927 at least with my 1911A1. :)

tailwind said...

I hate change the subject from the technical, but I couldn't resist pointing out these two statements from the linked article:

"... of America's 284,000 federally licensed gun dealers (284,000!) more than half don't operate from stores, preferring to sell from the trunks of cars ... where "no paperwork" is the norm."

I think they know not what they are talking about, which is no surprise, but this type of statement feeds the "universal background check" hysteria unnecessarily (but likely intentionally).

And,

"... a new gun manufactured every 10 seconds ..."

We all know that gun Mfgs are working overtime to keep up with demand, so assuming 24/7 production (with no time off for Christmas or Thanksgiving), a gun produced every ten seconds ends up being 3,153,600 new guns this year. Does that sound reasonable? I didn't think the demand was THAT high.

Tam said...

Bear in mind that the above article was written in 1994, so some of the buzzwords may be different. This was in the middle of the BATFE's jihad against "kitchen table FFLs", so that explains some of the wharrgarbl about "car trunks".

Critter said...

Stuck in 1991? I'm still stuck in the 19th century.

burkdoggy said...

+P JHP in my .38 snub and a prayer that I won't have to use it.

BryanP said...

So when are they going to release the .45LC version so I can load it in mah Judge!?!?! It's the best thing ever, the internet and the guy selling it told me so!

Mike Gallo said...

Thanks, Tam. This finally got me to buy a few hundred rounds of one of the loads off that list that I've been meaning to pick up for over a year. I was 100% guilty of putting one box of whatever defense load was on sale the week I went to Cabelas through my carry gun, loading it up, and never thinking about it.

Shameful.

Larry said...

I feed my Gat Federal HST 147 gr JHP +p(P9HST4). Hard to find so I try to stock up when I do find it. Based on ballistics info not a huge difference between the P9HST2 and P9HST4 just a little more umph from the 4. I found from my use of both that out of my gen3 Glock 19 I am a bit more accurate with the HST4 but with my wifes gen4 G19 The HST2 seems to be a tad better. The differences are so small that they could just be my imagination. Either way I standardized on the HST4 for carry for us both but also know that the more available HST2 will perform very well should I not be able to get the other.

Goober said...

All you need to do is rack the slide anyway. The sound will scare them off.

Irvin Bennet- Ammo Collector Blog said...

Hey at least all the gun bloggers got a post topic out of it! I think we've all written about this one. Most opinions have not been very flattering but hey there's no such thing as bad publicity.

abnormalist said...

At one time I really cared about the carry ammo in my guns.

Then I got a bit more realistic. the minute differences between most hollow points dont matter that much, so I shoot what I can afford to shoot a lot off.

Currently thats
Fiocchi xtp JHP in the 380 auto
Winchester white box JHP "personal protection" in the 45 auto
and winchester whitebox 240 grain "bear and whitetail" jacketed soft point in the 44 mag.

the most concerned decision of the three was the 380 for its lack luster performance. fiocchi loads em warm, and xtps are supposed to not expand TOO much to get decent penetration, but its still a big ol' crap shoot outta a tiny little pocket 380.

Brad K. said...

@ Goober 10:20,

I thought we learned from the old western movies -- don't pull the gun unless you are ready to use it.

Once your weapon comes out, everyone in range might consider themselves in deadly danger, and try to defend themselves from you. The sound of racking the gun might drive off the perp you see, while alerting someone waiting unseen -- including others unaware, or unsympathetic, about why you have drawn a weapon.

Counting on winning the day with the sound of racking a round seems dangerous to me.


@ BryanP 10:20,

My Walmart carries a Circuit Judge (same revolver, in a long gun). It hasn't sold in several months.

But there are some Winchester PDX1 Defender rounds in several calibers you might ask about, because they are on the Walmart shelf here, as well.

The .45LC rounds have a crenellated, hollow point nearly half the width of the round. Definitely intended to make a mess.
http://www.kygunco.com/winchester-45lc-supreme-elite-225-gr-pdx1-defender-bonded-20-pack-ammo-29674

The .410 Defender cartridge shows three stubby, stacked cylinders the width of the bore, with a few bb's thrown in so there won't be a simple, clean impact entry.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/taurus-judge-pdx1-gun-review-ballistics/

I noticed the PDX1 Defender rounds in a couple of other calibers the last time I visited.

Luck.

Goober said...

Brad;

My comment was sarcasm, not actual advice.

The topic was "deep of the day" and there's nothing more derpy than the oft-repeated claim that the sound of a gun cocking is as effective as using the gun as intended.

Sorry you missed it

Don Gwinn said...

"New Jersey, New York, California and Chicago will ban them. "

Actually, Chicago got preempted as part of CCL law last year. They no longer have the power to regulate handguns, handgun accessories, or handgun ammunition.
:D

Mr. Engineering Johnson said...

Chicago will ban them anyway then spend 50 million and 5 years defending the ban, all the while wondering why there is no money to fix potholes & whatnot.

Windy Wilson said...


"Actually, Chicago got preempted as part of CCL law last year. They no longer have the power to regulate handguns, handgun accessories, or handgun ammunition."

Something in current events that Baby Vulcan can smile about.