Wednesday, July 07, 2010

Now that is a well-thrown gauntlet.

From Justin at The Way of the Multigun:
I’m going to take this opportunity to lay it all out there. I’m willing to give the Hi-Point a shot, and here’s my proposal.

One of you, who’s a true believer in the superiority of the Hi-Point, provide me with a Hi-Point C-9 9mm handgun.

[Details of the matches in which he will shoot it]

If, after shooting the Hi-Point at these six matches, I manage to place higher with the Hi-Point, I will compete at a state-level Steel Challenge match with this gun. If provided with Hi-Point branded apparel (hat, shirt, etc.) I will wear it during this match.

However, if the Hi-Point fails to live up to the reputation of its online adherents and I do not place as well as or better with the Hi-Point, or it fails mechanically to the point where I can no longer use it at matches, I reserve the right to bag on Hi-Point guns to my heart's content from now until the day I die.
This I want to see. (Speaking as someone who actually bought a Hi-Point C-9 back in '93 and watched the thing puke repeatedly...)

Think your lo-bujit pot-metal blowback 9mm is the shizznit? Have you put 100,000 rounds through it without a single malf or parts breakage? Want to wave high the banner of Mansfield, OH? Here's your chance to put your money where your keyboard is. I've known Justin for near ten years on teh intarw3bz: If he needs to eat crow, he'll do it honorably and with a smile on his face. Somehow I suspect that his diet will remain low in Corvus...

33 comments:

Rabbit said...

I've been astonished at articles in monthly periodicals I tend to respect which suggest and recommend Hi-Point's carbine as a lower-cost alternative to LEO agencies.

I, too, think Justin has no need to fear West Nile virus.

Tam said...

I don't know that I'd go recommending the carbine to anybody with a budget, but from all I can gather, it's far more reliable than the pistol.

(Which brings us back to "Damning By Faint Praise." ;) )

Mr.B said...

I actually own two, and both are as malf free as any gun I own.

They DO require a very stiff wrist though.

Heavy? Yes. UGLY? Definitely. one mag heaters? Yes.(putting in the mag is a bitch).

I think that those who claim that they are a handful of malfunction either haven't owned one (and repeated what others told them), or fed them cheap ammo. Mine are great. The triggers are good, and they eat WWB all day long. I have in excess of 1500 rds through one, and 1k through the other one, no malfs.

YMMV.

Firehand said...

The carbines seem to be a step up from the pistols from what I've heard. I had a chance to put a little over 100 rounds through one, and it worked quite nicely. No idea on longevity.

James at Hell in a Handbasket has recommended the carbines to people as a home defense weapon; I don't doubt it'd work quite well at it. For a competition weapon? No idea.

Tam said...

"I think that those who claim that they are a handful of malfunction either haven't owned one (and repeated what others told them), or fed them cheap ammo."

I owned one. (More than one, if you count "Stallards".)

I dealt with customer complaints on more than a hundred others until I finally got to someplace where I was in charge of ordering and could make sure we didn't stock them.

If factory-new Federal, Winchester, and Remington FMJ counts as "cheap ammo", then guilty as charged.

Mr.B said...

mine are less than 3 years old. Perhaps they have improved their quality?

Fred said...

One of my early projects was a "facelift" for the 9mm carbine. Dropped it into an ATI stock and threaded the muzzle for a bored out CETME flash hider. It actually looks pretty decent that way.

Never had any problems with the gun, other than a tendency for the action cover to rust if you looked at it crosseyed, but a coat of black hi-temp paint fixed that, and I never got around to getting any spare mags for the thing. I should dig it out sometime, it is actually pretty fun shooting.

Casey said...

As a disclaimer, I do not own, nor have I ever owned, a Hi-Point, in any of it's variations. However, I did handle and test fire copious numbers of them while working in the lab way back when.

First off, it's always stated that the carbine are better than the pistols. However, it's the same guy(s) building both, pulling the majority of moving parts out of the same bins. Secondly, I've often heard the comment about having to hold the pistols with a firmer or stiffer grip to get reliable functioning. Could it be that the extra-top-heavy pot-metal slide causes an imbalance that users more familiar with a lighter weight have trouble adjusting to, and therefore blame malfs on the pistol instead of themselves? Whereas the greater framework of the carbine version would tend to absorb recoil, plus you have just a bolt recoiling, instead of a pot-metal slide.

Finally, a competition shooter used to taking top end gear on the course, expecting to take a low budget pistol on the same course, and score as well, or better than his top end or custom gear, is a bit like asking Mario Andretti to win at Indy in a Yugo.

The Hi-point is not, and was never intended to be, a competition pistol. It's a plinker, and a low end, get into shooting, kind of pistol.

What is it they say, "Quality, Service, and Price...Pick any two." I can personally attest to the fact that the Owner himself will get on the phone with you if you have a question, or problem, and bend over backward to make it right. Of course, they may have been because I was calling from the lab, but I've never heard any complaints about their service.

YMMV


Casey

WV- hagit ... Is that was grows up to be Haggis?

Tam said...

Casey,

He's not looking to shoot Bullseye with it, just steel challenge. The targets are huge and up close; all the gun needs to do is not malf.

(And his regular competition heater is a CZ-85, which is hardly "top end gear"; its market niche is somewhere between Taurus and Glock.)

Bram said...

All you 1911 shooters, I'm calling your bluff. I think they stink, but if you send me a nice new one, I promise to shoot it a lot and let you know what I think. Deal?

(My Hi-Point carbine has only jammed with cheap wad-cutters, never round or hollow-points)

Tam said...

Bram,

Name your desired sub-$200 1911-pattern pistol and I'll see if we can't organize a whip-around. ;)

Tam said...

(Oh, and you're completely right: Most factory 1911-pattern pistols are indifferently built out of substandard parts and suck big rocks up off the ground in the reliability department. I'd stay away unless you really feel like becoming a total gun geek.)

Less said...

Most factory 1911-pattern pistols are indifferently built out of substandard parts and suck big rocks up off the ground in the reliability department.

Tam, here you go lying again... Don't you know they're as reliable as a CZ-75?!

Brian Dunbar said...

My wife bought me a Hi-Point 45 a few months ago. Which was a very sweet thing of her to do.

I should have known something was up when she called me and asked 'Honey, what caliber was the pistol you qualified 'Expert' with when you were 19?'

Haven't been to the range yet. I really should get off my butt and find out how well it shoots so I can have a dog in this kind of discussion.

Anonymous said...

As an aside, do you know what the difference is between a crow and a raven?

When you look at the main flight feathers (called pinion feathers), crows have eight, while ravens have nine.


So the difference all boils down to a matter of a pinion.

Anonymous said...

If you need a crow, take the ones in my yard.

Please.

Jim

Also, anon: I roffled, I admit it.

Anonymous said...

Something tells me that, regardless of what happens, any negative performance will be blamed on the shooter and not the pistol.

"It's his fault it jammed!" herp derp.

Jeff the Baptist said...

"Could it be that the extra-top-heavy pot-metal slide causes an imbalance that users more familiar with a lighter weight have trouble adjusting to, and therefore blame malfs on the pistol instead of themselves? Whereas the greater framework of the carbine version would tend to absorb recoil, plus you have just a bolt recoiling, instead of a pot-metal slide."

Exactly. The carbine is heavier so while the bolt weighs just as much, it is a smaller portion of the gun's total weight and the gun gets pushed around less. The carbine also has a buttstock so you're not going to limp-wrist it like the pistol.

Caleb said...

I have actually owned a Hi Point pistol, and I can attest to the fact that it was the worst piece of crap that I've ever shot a bullet through. Consistent failures to feed, extract, and cycle. Also, it slays me when people say "I have 500 rounds through my Hi Point and its been fine". That's great. Call me when that's 10,000 and you have less than a 1% rate of malfunction. That's 100 malfs in 10,000 rounds.

Mr.B said...

"Call me when that's 10,000 and you have less than a 1% rate of malfunction. That's 100 malfs in 10,000 rounds."

do you have that in all of the pistols you own? Bet not.

Less said...

"Call me when that's 10,000 and you have less than a 1% rate of malfunction. That's 100 malfs in 10,000 rounds.

Actually, that is typical of most reliable pistols...

GuardDuck said...

"I have 500 rounds through my Hi Point and its been fine".

Dude, I put 500 rounds through a new gun before the clock even starts on serious function, reliability, wear and maintenance observations. I won't even consider the thing for serious use until it has 1500 rounds minimum.

Caleb said...

MrB, let me check my logs. I currently have two guns that have over 10,000 rounds through them, my ParaUSA LTC and my S&W 625. The 625 has 29,290 rounds through it (most of them last year) with 8 malfunctions of any type including light primer hits. That's a rate of malfunction of 0.027%. The Para LTC has 13,056 rounds through it, with 12 malfunctions for a failure rate of 0.09%.

I have several guns with lower round counts than that - for example, I had a ParaUSA Tac-5 in 9mm that had a failure rate of 1.36%. That was 25 rounds out of 1,840 that I used it for, but even 1.36% is waaaaay too high for gun that I need to work in competition. So a gun that only failed 1 percent of the time? I sold. It was a nice gun too, very easy to shoot, but it just wasn't reliable enough. ToddG from Pistol Training.com is currently over 17,000 rounds through his HK45 with a 0% failure rate.

Anonymous said...

You know the real difference between Crows and Ravens?

If it has a bullet hole in it, it's a crow.

FormerFlyer

Owen said...

I've done quite a bit of reliability and service life testing of handguns.

anything worse than 15 malfunctions/10k rounds, is eye-popping bad.

Mr.B said...

ok, ok, I get it....But really, by the standards you are demanding, most S&W, Colts,Taurus and other "quality" handguns would be considered unreliable as well from the Factory.

I give, you win. I'm out.


WV: Fixtd....what you do after you brokt it

Caleb said...

That's not really true. While I've not had the chance to do it myself Todd (again) ran a box stock M&P 9 through 62,333 rounds of ammo with only 5 breakages/stoppages/malfs of any kind. That's a failure rate of 0.008%.

There are no magic swords. I've seen guns break, quality guns go up in smoke. But some guns are a lot less magic than others, and I quite frankly wouldn't bet my life on a Hi Point.

Mr.B said...

ok, I said I was out....but check out the discussion of the CZ in this post:

http://multigun.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/todd-g-on-high-volume-shooting-and-cz-pistols/

and he's yer boy....

Exactly what I was talking about re: reliability, etc. with a stock firearm.


BTW, MKS is sending him a pistol. We shall see.

Heath said...

A Caveat, I didn't read any prior replies.

That said, I'm within walking distance to Mansfield, and I'd Happily send the man a Hi-Point, Just to see the things bagged on til' the end of time, when it fails epically.

Evan Price said...

Seriously? I was one of the ones discussing this with Justin on THR. The exact discussion revolved around what sort of family-defense pistol can you get for $100?

Justin's learned response was that you should save money until you had another $200 to stack with the first $100 and buy a "good" gun, iirc.

Seems some folks do not understand what "working poor" really means. When the choice comes down to, do you pay your electric bill or replace the flat tire on the only car you own this month.

My feeling is that a Hi-Point fits that bill- a used C9 is often available for $100 or less, and good enough to leave in the nightstand drawer for just-in-case.

Yes, I agree 100%- they are ugly, heavy, ergos of a brick, low capacity, made inexpensively, and are not anywhere near as good in almost any category you can imagine when compared to a good used S&W Model 10 (except maybe capacity).

Justin said "How Cliche'ed" when I pointed out the first rule of gunfight is 'Bring a gun'. Given the choice of buying a Hi-Point C9 NOW or waiting six months and maybe having enough cash to get a police-trade service pistol...if some other bill doesn't come up in the meantime and wipe out the savings- You can do much worse than Hi-Point (And I'm looking at YOU, Ring-Of-Fire guns!)

Plus, let's say you keep saving- there's no rule that says you can't take that used HiPoint C9 and a stack of twenties and get something better later on.

But no, Justin wants to embark on a display of silly. Nobody said a HiPoint was a competition-worthy firearm. Might as well enter the Indy 500 with a Craigslist $500 Honda. (Well, that's 24 Hours of LeMons actually).

I'm a Hi-Point supporter, and even I wouldn't enter it in any competition. It's just not designed or suited for that style of use. It's intended to be shot a little and stored a lot.

Tam said...

Evan Price,

"Given the choice of buying a Hi-Point C9 NOW or waiting six months and maybe having enough cash to get a police-trade service pistol...if some other bill doesn't come up in the meantime and wipe out the savings- You can do much worse than Hi-Point (And I'm looking at YOU, Ring-Of-Fire guns!)"

I can agree with this. And, of course, this brings up the whole different matter of "working poor"; I know too many people who tell me that they can't afford that $350 used Glock or, hell, $250 used SW9VE because of bills. You know, the cable bill and the credit card bill and the phone bill made fat with 3G and text messaging and... I guess it's all priorities. But yeah, if you're grinding broke, a Hi-Point is better than nothing and a pissload better than any other zinc gun.

Where I'm interested in this is not whether Justin wins any Steel Challenge matches with it, but rather to see some good, hard documentation on failure rate and type and parts breakage.

It's been a long time since I owned mine, and I didn't know half as much about guns then. I can't remember the exact malf rate (it wouldn't make it through a mag of FMJ without an FTF, but it ran 9mm Starfire JHP okay, from what I can recall.)

I've seen enough Glocks and SIGs and whatnot shoot to tell you what's most likely to break and when, but Hi-Point discussions on teh intertubes are always "They jam every single time!" versus "Mine has shot a million zillion rounds and never jammed!" I'm interested in this because I want data.

Dave said...

Some people have their priorities out of whack, but there are plenty of folks out there who are genuinely in the shit out of luck category. I can't comment on those pistols. I haven't owned one, and haven't really considered it much, but I am interested in the outcome of this scenario. If someone could manufacture a cheap 9mm pistol that actually works that would be a good thing for a lot of people, even if it were limited to running with a specific type of ammo.
Oh by the way, put me down for $20 towards the test gun if there is ever a long term test of the carbine planned.

evan price said...

Thanks, Tam. I am fortunate enough to be able to select from a variety of CCW options including several Sigs, a KT-PF9, a Taurus J-frame 357, and lots of S&W K-frame joy.
I think that some of us gun types tend to graduate beyond entry-level gear so fast that we leave behind the reasons why people need it at all. Fixed incomes and low paying jobs are going to be more and more common I'm afraid.