Sunday, June 03, 2012

And what kind of lesson is that?

People have funny ideas about manners these days.

For instance, yesterday I went with Shootin' Buddy to see Iron Man 3 again at the local cineplex. In the row ahead of me, two seats to my right, was a woman who spent the entire movie using her smartphone to post Facebook status updates, apparently along the lines of "zomg totally at the movie pissin off everybody around me luv u l8r"

Because I have manners, I resisted the temptation to wash out her little screen with 80 lumens of Fountain Valley's finest and then when she turned around, say "Annoying, isn't it?" I didn't do it mostly because it would be rude, and partially because it could have had unforeseen consequences, like her boyfriend getting all physical and then where do things go from there?

In a similar vein comes a thread at the Indiana Gun Owner's forum where, with name and location omitted to protect the innocent, a poster relates a tale that has such a great possibility for going pear-shaped that the more I think about it, the more mind-boggling it gets.

Allegedly, the way it went down is like this: Some young guy is standing there in his local gun shop, minding his own business, with his hands full of prospective purchases and a pistol openly carried on his hip. The store was apparently moderately crowded with patrons, one of them being an older guy who apparently felt it was his duty to teach this young guy a lesson in the perils of open carry or situational awareness or something.

Anyhow, supposedly the old guy yanks the kid's gun out of his holster, drops the mag, clears the piece, tucks it under his arm and thumbs the rounds out of the mag while delivering some rambling lecture to the stunned kid about "Suppose I wanted to kill you now? Huh? What then?" Then he sets the kid's piece on the counter and stomps out of the shop leaving everybody standing there slack-jawed.

It is at this point that some in the audience are applauding the old guy for teaching the kid a lesson.

I'm thinking it's just a matter of luck that the old guy didn't learn one himself. Suppose the holster had been a retention holster whose appearance he was unfamiliar with, and his little grab turned into a wrestling match on the floor? Suppose the kid had felt the hand on his gun and arm-barred him while pulling out the little fixed-blade knife on his off-side that the old guy didn't see? Suppose the kid carried a pistol openly on his right hip... and another one not so openly in his left pocket?

Suppose... ohmygod ...that an employee had watched the gun snatch happen and, fearing some psycho was about to try and shoot the place up, blew the would-be-teacher out of his shoes with the shotgun behind the counter? Suppose the kid had done what he had every right to do, and called 911 and had the old guy charged with assault? A lot of lessons could have been learned in this incident; fortunately only the cheapest one was.

You know, as fun as it would have been to shine my Surefire flashlight right on that cell phone, I'm feeling really glad that I didn't now. I'll leave the rude teaching to someone else.

45 comments:

Firehand said...

Arm bar my ass; Dad once nearly put an elbow through someone's temple when they made what he interpreted as a grab at his sidearm. If the guy had put the jerk in the hospital, he'd have been justified in doing so.

Al T. said...

The grabber will run into the wrong guy one day and it will not be pretty.

Kristopher said...

I would have pulled my backup and emptied it into him.

What a dumbass.

Joel said...

There's an Iron Man 3?

Tam said...

Joel,

Due to the supporting cast, some people insist on calling it The Avengers.

Anonymous said...

I'm not defending the gun grabber but if you haven't taken a retention /disarm course your selling yourself short. Just hanging a gun on your hip doesn't allow you to snooze.

I'm sort of partial of filleting the guy off your gun myself.

Gerry

El Capitan said...

These days, I'm giving almost all my cinema trade to the Alamo Drafthouse. They run an on-screen pre-movie warning that they will happily frog-march you out of the theater for talking or cellphone use during the show.

They (and their customers) like the policy so much, they posted an irate phone message from an expelled customer as part of the pre-show entertainment.

Perhaps you could recommend the adoption of this policy to your local flickery?

God, Gals, Guns, Grub said...

Daily carrying of a firearm greatly reduces my temptation to antagonize idiots in desperate need of it...

Dann in Ohio

SewerDweller said...

some random person grabs ahold of my keys/wallet/carry pistol/cell phone/random part of my person, first thing I'm doing is dotting them in the eye. if my hands are full, I'll do a 'Caleb'. I'll hit them with whatever is in my hands. It shouldn't be too hard, their hands are full of whatever they are trying to grab. once Captain GrabbyPaws has been removed from my person( probable. most people instinctively cover their faces with their hands when you shove stuff in their eyes. ), I will determine if further beatings are needed.

Ygolonac said...

The only place I open-carry is out at the (isolated) BLM-land shootin' hole, but any unauthourised grabbing at my firearm's location (CCW or no) is likely to be met by varying degrees of LOUD (and probably NWS) output, plus bonus levels of physical response.

It's a graduated response system - not-too-bright buddy who thinks it'd be funny? Moderate-volume discussions on his mental status/cognition level, slap up the back of his head to jar a couple neurons into firing. Whereas a curious six-year-old is *not* going to be elbow-dropped and sewermouthed.

Unknown adult? My, that looks painful. Accompanied by making sure anyone in the vicinity is in witness-mode, either to see the dumbass move, or the results of the dumbass move. (It's a learnin' experience.)

All of this fast-paced judgement does require you to be aware of your surroundings and situation, but hey, you're carrying, that's a given, right?

Right?

[sigh]

BGMiller said...

See, that right there is part of the reason that the first thing I do is grab one of those handy little baskets. Keeps one hand free for any number of uses.

BGM

Ryan said...

The gun grabbing story, if actually true, was monumentally dumb. That is how folks get into fights that somebody doesn't walk away from.

Will said...

There was a similar type incident in a big box store a year or so ago. Supposedly, a security guard grabbed an OC pistol, and ended up in the hospital due to the carrier's training. In the middle of the thread (might have been on ARF.com), the poster was advised by his lawyer to shut up. There were comments about the legitimacy of the tale, toward the end, and I lost track of it.


As far as the phone situation, best to have the theater employees handle it. It's like complaining directly to your neighbor about his barking dog, no good will come of it. Let the city handle it (so your identity remains unknown to them), that's part of their duty.

Paul Clavet said...

I'm a young man who open carries sometimes.

How are you going to my capabilities if you don't know me? I just look like another dumb kid open carrying. Any dumb kid can take a half-day retention course and turn into a lesson into a nasty surprise for the would-be teacher.

I happened to get my retention training during my time as an Only One, but the training isn't hard to find.

The last time someone playfully grabbed for my (concealed) gun from behind, he got an awful bruise right on his sternum, and got himself into a headlock before I realized who he was. He was an off-duty cop, a former cow-orker, and he should have known better. If I'd had an off-hand gun or knife, it might have been very uncomfortable at the next FOP BBQ.

It's not Chutes and Ladders. If you don't take this stuff seriously, it might become Shoot Some Bladders. :-D I kill me.

Divemedic said...

Years ago, when my significant other and I began dating, she found out that I carried, and went and got her permit, and began carrying herself.

We frequently shop in the same store together, but also find ourselves shopping in different areas of the store.

Imagine some self-appointed teacher's surprise when he steals my weapon, and is immediately shot in the back by my girlfriend, who had been elsewhere in the store. Not wise at all.

Robin said...

Now me ... I think that the old guy should stick to straddling speed bags and beating on them with loaded guns.

Silver the Evil Chao said...

...Iron Man 3 isn't out yet.

GreyLocke said...

The lesson teacher is a jerk weed. There is no excuse for his behavior other than he felt like he had to lord over someone. He should have been arrested and charged.

Derfel Cadarn said...

Let me confess that I am no kind of hero but pops would have been being entertained in a hospital or the morgue if he had tried this stunt with me. As a fellow patron at this store I may have had to intervene as concern for my and others safety was at risk. The old fool and that is being generous is lucky to have left with his life.

acairfearann said...

I nearly did genuine damage to a good friend's face once because they thought it would be funny to jump me from behind in a dark parking lot. Good reflexes on everybody's part kept it from going beyond some minor scratches. And I wasn't, at that time, especially situationally aware or carrying anything beyond that old classic of a set of sharpened keys.
You don't Do that, especially not to strangers. And to involve a stranger's loaded gun?

RKN said...

Jerk weed? Surely. Monumentally stupid? Absolutely. Teacher? Hardly.

Yet the the response of the "student", intentioned or not, was wise if you ask me. Far too many people mistake prudence for cowardice

Robert Fowler said...

Silver the Evil Chao said...
...Iron Man 3 isn't out yet.

It's filming and will be released 3 May 2013.

toadold said...

I agree, for open carry use a retention holster. The world is full of idiots and evil people. Even with concealed carry I have the little fixed blade in a Kydex in case I get bound up on my strong side or surprised real close. If you don't already know how, learn to sew enough so you can put a pocket in your pocket to conceal and present a knife.

Anonymous said...

"Suppose... ohmygod ...that an employee had watched the gun snatch happen and, fearing some psycho was about to try and shoot the place up, blew the would-be-teacher out of his shoes with the shotgun behind the counter?"

I guess the ancient "If it ain't yours, don't fool with it." was not taught universally, even in the "good ol' days" ..... to bad grampa grabby did not get some unforgettable RTR on that.

-jimbob86

Living in Babylon said...

Recently I've taken to the concept of a hold out knife on your pistol holster that somebody floated in a ZS thread. If somebody stuffs your draw, grabs for your pistol and you stuff his draw, whatever entails a bit of arm wrasslin' you "defang the snake" with the knife.

I like my Kabar Last Ditch TKI (TKD? TKMI? Some high speed acronym) in this roll. Its a push type blade which draws with a similar motion to the pistol itself.

Anonymous said...

Iron Man 3? It wasn't even worth the effort of torrenting the screener.

Marja said...

I could claim this is related to the movie in a sort of roundabout way (books sometimes end up as movies?) but I guess I have to admit this is totally Off Topic: I just read a chick lit (ebook) which had a couple of chapters in the beginning which might have been named 'how I fell totally in love with guns'. Three wealthy suburban California housewives go to a four day self defense course instead of spa. Well, after the course they run into North Korean terrorists and save the day, at which point it got a bit tedious, (four day course and they are suddenly all like Sarah Connor in Terminator 2, but, well, wish fulfillment...?) but those chapters about their first encounters with guns were fun.

So, would anybody happen to know any other chick lit with that type of stuff...okay, I guess not that many here read chick lit, but just in case? (That novel was called 'Suburban Task Force', by the way). I like comedy + thriller chick lit, but it seems more often the heroines of those either wouldn't think of touching a gun (or they start thinking about it only after the murderer is already chasing them in the abandoned office building/some similar location), or if they do they have skipped the training part.

Keads said...

Sitting at a public range with all sorts of things to rent I do run into some of this. Not to mention people wandering in with all sorts of hardware in an indeterminate state.

Our principal was a bit heavy handed IMHO.

Stupid stuff I have observed. Several with a rental .22 were ejected as they tried to do "Photo Op" in the lobby pointing the gun at the cameraman.

I tell people that if they shoot me by accident I will shoot them on purpose. Heavy handed and all of that, but when I tell people that the staff is mostly retired Military, LEO, and well, me, we get to the point where most go along with the plan.

There is of course the stupid that burns every once in a while.

Skip said...

Do not like open carry reason #256.

TheMinuteman said...

Last time I was in the movie theater I confess I did tweet. I tweeted the following:

https://twitter.com/barronbarnett/status/204076266595434498

"Watching the avengers with the wife, contrary to the gun grabbers my firearm is the only reason I don't verbally tell someone to please STFU"

While making sure the screen was blinding in their direction.

As for the teacher... he was no teacher, and the people who cheered him on were fucking stupid.

Stop fucking touching it idiot. I would have drawn on him for handling a loaded weapon with people around. If it had been be he was trying to teach, he'd be lucky if he survived. I would consider it a fight to the death if someone was trying to take my weapon. His surrender would be him prone on the ground face down and I would accept nothing less. If it meant exposing his blood to the floor, so be it. Yeah what if he did want to kill me, how would I know?

And saying it was just a joke? Nope you can explain that to the cops, at which point I would point out the following to the officers. I don't care, you don't touch other peoples things. As it is even as a by stander I would get involved. He just armed himself with someone else's weapon without permission in a crowded area. Yeah, he needs a good damn lesson of his own.

I will say something about that story screams urban legend though.

og said...

Leave the surefire in your pocket. Follow them out to their car, wait until they park somewhere, and remove the valve stems with side cutters.

Was that out loud? Sorry.

RabidAlien said...

Would need to find some sort of verification on this story, personally...while I can sorta see it happening *somewhere*, the fact that the original story has them standing in the middle of a gun store seems a bit off. Especially with the handful of bystanders who approve of the "no gun carrying" policy. If they don't approve of guns being carried...why in the name of Zeus' butthole are they in a gun store in the first place?

Just curious, is all.

AM said...

If someone is acting like a dick to make a point, maybe the point is that someone is a dick?

Kinda reminds me of that famous speech from the epic movie, "Team America: World Police" about the three types of people....

Tam said...

RabidAlien,

I'm sorry, I phrased that awkwardly. There was no indication that the other customers disapproved of carrying guns that I am aware of.

But yeah, the tale does have a whiff of the "conveniently backs his point" about it. The same poster has allegedly seen a guy OC'ing a dot-sighted Open Gun in a typical open-class rig at the local playground, and when he was climbing on the playground equipment, that muzzle was covering The Chidrennnn!

Uh, yeah.

Anonymous said...

Re Tam@ 6:45 - Remember, Sarah Brady says that those evil rabid guns fire themselves. Hanging in a holster with the safety on just means they can swivel faster to track their prey. I read it on the Internet so it must be true!


LittleRed1 (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)

Anonymous said...

O/T for Marja, Chicks with Guns book recommendation

Princess of Wands by John Ringo. Science fiction, housewife versus demons and bad people

Chas S. Clifton said...

Wait, was there a bear in the theater? Was Cell Phone Woman a "mama grizzly"? See, it all makes sense. You have donned the Trousers of Time on the Other Side.

Trent said...

Just wow that is insane!

I'm not sure "what I woulda done" but just wow.

I'm not sure which descriptor suits that guy more; moron, idiot, jackass or asshole.

Probably all of the above thinking on it.

Or possibly successful troll being successful?

perlhaqr said...

In my more impetuous youth, I have climbed over rows of seats to tell people to hang the fuck up during the movie.

But I would probably just go get an usher, now. Carrying a firearm did wonders to cool my ardor for picking fights.

Ted N said...

Geez. Feel free to be a curmudgeon, but keep your f'n hands to yourself.

Story does smell a little bit like urban legend too.

RabidAlien said...

Checked Snopes, but didn't find anything on it (their search engine isn't very forgiving, though, so that's not a big surprise).

Firehand said...

Ygolonac, I just flashed to that scene from Road House: "Hurts like hell, don't it?"

Stinky Pete said...

Cell phones? Feh. When I went, a gentleman next to me not only chatted on the phone, his daughter was on a laptop for the entire movie. I wish I was making this up.

Seerak said...

I wait until very late in the run to see a movie, if I see it in the theater at all. That way the theater's empty enough to ensure lots of options for relocation.

I just don't see much value add in theaters anymore, in this day of cheap HT equipment, TV's, projectors and screens.

Roadkill said...

I always carry an offhand fixed blade. This sort of thing would have ended badly for everyone. A big scar to look at in the mirror every day would have been a good lesson for the old guy. If this is true, that is.