Sunday, June 17, 2012

Not getting it...

So the Today show was covering the story of the Texas father who put the terminal beatdown on the guy molestering his daughter.

The bubbleheaded newsweasels there in New York were gravely intoning that now the man would have to face a grand jury! Was it justified, or was it murder? (I'll note that they couldn't seem to find a local to interview who did not allow as they'd have helped hold the perp down so the dad could get his licks in better...)

Meanwhile, they also provided a couple of key details that I had not yet heard: Apparently, the man was fetched by his son, who announced that his sister had been taken. And he set off to find her and came across her half-naked and screaming and the baby raper with his trousers around his ankles...

Now, normally I'm a big proponent of "You are not a Caped Avenger. When you stumble across some random random street scene you interpret as a crime in progress, the best thing to do is dial 911 and, at most, yell 'Hey! I just called the cops!' and hope whichever one is the actual bad guy runs off."

Even a seemingly clear-cut scenario like "the man in the grocery store parking lot wrestling with the woman in front of  the screaming kid" may actually be the custodial parent trying to keep his psycho ex- from kidnapping their child, or an off-duty cop getting assaulted by a woman whose babydaddy he just put away for armed robbery. Unless you have all the information, it's not a good idea to rush to judgement.

However, I'm trying to think of an alternate scenario where you could stumble across a screaming toddler being sexually assaulted by a grown man with his trousers at half-mast and not be cleared guns hot. I mean, what could he say that makes this okay and would prevent you from being green-lighted weapons free? "It's alright, I'm her dad?" or "I know what this looks like, but he's really consenting?"

48 comments:

BGMiller said...

Weapons free nothing....
In that scenario shooting to slide lock and then using your heater as an impact weapon until dental records won't help identify the critter would be perfectly acceptable.

Dragging the mutt back into town at the end of a chain tied to the bumper would also be considered proper.

BGM

Robert Fowler said...

In Texas, every homicide must go in front of the Grand Jury. I'm betting this will be the fastest "no bill" in Texas history.

dave said...

In Texas, every homicide must go in front of the Grand Jury. I'm betting this will be the fastest "no bill" in Texas history.

I dunno. I'm betting it takes the grand jury some time to figure out exactly how to word his award citation.

Anonymous said...

The press has been carrying water for perverts' and criminals' rights for the last 20 years, all the while giving flippant disregard for the rights of people to be left the hell alone by perverts and criminals. Hence the surge in CCW's and heaters sales.

Your normal (and proper, IMO) reticence in armed involvement in street theatre doesn't apply here. There's a pervert forcing himself on a small child, in broad daylight. There's no right-minded adult, much less any parent, who, when presented with that set of facts, would not have lent a helping hand. Screw guns. I would want to feel the perp's skull turn to pulp under my fists. This is Old Testament shit, right here. Smith, Wesson, Browning and those guys need not apply.

If ever there were a case where a man could stand up in court and say in a clear, loud voice: "Your Honor, I plead Not Guilty by reason of That Man Needed Killin'" - this is it.

Tam said...

Robert Fowler,

"In Texas, every homicide must go in front of the Grand Jury."

I know that, but it was obvious that Jenna Wolf was clueless about it.

Borepatch said...

I don't now what it is about DAs these days. Actually, I suspect that I do - this wasn't Roman Polanski, it was some redneck from flyover country.

Tam said...

Borepatch,

"I don't now what it is about DAs these days."

Had you read the comments above yours, you would. ;)

Jeff B said...

Ironically, if he HAD been armed and shot the POS, he would *possibly* be in a better legal position. Shoot twice, threat over, wait for the cops.

Instead, being UNARMED, one *could* argue that the threat was stopped when the father pulled the POS off his daughter, and that wailin' on the POS with fists constitutes assault. I am not making that argument, mind, but I suppose the lawyer for the family of the POS probably will.

(Another reason to never leave home without your firearm.)

perlhaqr said...

Wow. Ok, I hadn't heard those details either.

I don't have kids myself, but I have nieces and nephews, and, well, yeah. I just absolutely agree with everything you said.

Heh. I heard about the "grand jury" bit, and how "there are other details about the situation which will need to be considered" and I was thinking "ah, hell, maybe it wasn't really clearly molestation, maybe there was a history of bad blood there, maybe something something". Apparently that's not going to be a concern here.

Sabra said...

Deadly force doesn't have to involve a gun. I went & read the statutes and the guideline seems to be what a "reasonable person" would have done under the circumstances.

Which pretty well clears him.

Duwain Whitis said...

Texas law allows the use of deadly force if necessary to stop a sexual assault of a third person, amongst other reasons (another being criminal mischief at night, believe it or not.)

Ruth said...

One of the reporting articles made the point that if dad had just shot the badguy in the head once or twice no one woulda blinked (legally wise), but because he used his fists he could face charges. I don't know squat about TX laws but I can believe it....

hooper said...

So a thought just went through my head: could he sue the dead guy's estate for the trauma and suffering inflicted on the kid?

I don't even pretend to play attorney so I have no clue. I would, however, like to see some way of countering the potential civil suit from that guy's family. Also, I'd love to see the press struggle on their pro-perp narrative vs. the pro-kid narrative.

Anonymous said...

"Shoot twice, threat over, wait for the cops."

Sorry to disagree.

In this case shoot until you have no more ammo, broke the bayonet off and cracked the stock.

Then reassess.

Gerry

Jeff B said...

Gerry: Oh, make no mistake, Sir... if that was one of MY girls, I'd STILL be reloading... after a run to Bass Pro to pick up more ammo.

Stranger said...

Unless things have changed radically since I went to school there the good people of Halletsville would form a ring around the town and let no one in or out without a pass before they convict that man of anything except being slow with his fists.

And, as last week's case out of Yakima demonstrates, there are times when it is reasonable and proper for an armed man to step in and put a stop to violence.

If you are faced with a violent triangle, corral 'em all and let the fuzz sort it out.

Stranger

Mikael said...

I say get Larry Correia in contact with this guy, he deserves an MHI patch.

greg said...

The fact that there are some folks who even Question whether this guy did right or not is just another symptom in our country.

To address your 'don't get involved', we had an incident in Yakima earlier this week where Guy 1 took shots at guy 2 over a cell phone. Guy 3 is in the parking lot, hears the shots, and pulls his gun to respond, telling Guy 1 to drop his piece. Guy 1 runs, while guy 2 keeps bleeding on the ground.

So far, there has been nothing about pressing charges on Guy 3...but, it's a touchy situation. You didn't see what started things...what if Guy 2 had a knife before being shot?

That's one of those situations where I think I make sure me and mine are safe, and call 911...

Josh K. said...

Jeff even if someone tried to get him on assault, there is temporary insanity. He wasn't thinking clearly, do to the perps. own actions. Now the family could try something in civil court, but they would need to move out of the State, to do so.

Divemedic said...

I have been using this case to counter the insanity we have been hearing from the anti-Zimmerman bots here in Florida, who are using that shooting to advocate for getting rid of stand your ground laws. I point out that if stand your ground were eliminated, you would be required by law to retreat in this situation, and leave the critter to molest the child while you wait on the cops.

Joan of Argghh! said...

Allow me to re-state what I said elsewhere about this, and it has nothing to do with guns or law-- although personally I think the visceral and real pain that Dad still feels in his hands today must be satisfying.

However, his daughter will never have to doubt her worth. She watched Daddy put down a rabid dog with his bare hands and rescued her from a monster.

That the world has monsters is a lifetime guarantee. That Heaven provides an avenging hero-Dad is a righteous reflection of what justice should look like.

God, Gals, Guns, Grub said...

Reminds me of one of my favorite movies...

Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That's my policy.

The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?

Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!

Dann in Ohio

Anonymous said...

Getting his pants off with Dad and various other family members within the immediate vicinity--Dad clearly performed a public service, he said, shaking his head. If it hadn't been this, it inevitably would have been someone else, someplace else.

'Poor impulse control' doesn't start to describe this.

Mike James

Atom Smasher said...

Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That's my policy.
The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?
Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!
[walks out of the room]
The Mayor: He's got a point.

Sport Pilot said...

Sound's like a prime example of Darwin's theory doesn't it?

Mattexian said...

So a thought just went through my head: could he sue the dead guy's estate for the trauma and suffering inflicted on the kid?

They could try, but seeing's how the authorities are having enough trouble finding said next-of-kin in Mexico, I kinda doubt anything positive would come of that, except more riling up the populace over immigration reform. (Supposedly the perp had a green card to legally be here, tho now I'm thinkin' not so much.)

Joseph said...

"What would a reasonable man do?"

What he did.

What would have happened afterwards? What usually happens. Kidnapped child report, search, finding of body. Only this time, Dad got there fast, and the body isn't the kid's.

Anonymous said...

Tam, on your side of the river, If you must second guess if you can defend a baby frome a rapeist, you need to (1) get your mind right. (2) Move someplace where killin' a babyraper IN THE ACT is protected by law(like KENTUCKY) And who gives a S*&^ what a New Yorker thinks? Those "people" gave up there rights and freedom long ago. Ray

hooper said...

They could try, but seeing's how the authorities are having enough trouble finding said next-of-kin in Mexico, I kinda doubt anything positive would come of that, except more riling up the populace over immigration reform.

I kinda figured as much. I was more wondering if it'd be an option in the event that some family member did actually try to bring a civil case forward.
Thanks.

Drang said...

I figure the Grand Jury will give the guy a Standing O' and throw him a barbecue. Probably hosted by Rick Perry.

RabidAlien said...

Standing O, Key to the City (State!), helluvabig BBQ, lifetime membership at the range of his choice, a year's supply of ammo (plus a year's supply for his son/daughter, when they come of age to shoot), biggest effin' medal you can find, street/library/highschool/self-defense institute named after him....Grand Jury deliberation should take no more time than it takes for them to text each other and suggest rewards. The dirtbag got what he was asking for. If it had been me, pudgy little wuss that I am, they would still be scraping around for enough DNA to identify the oily stain as "once-humanoid". There's a new level of hell being excavated for this arsewipe. For the father....I hope he never has to buy a drink again. If I ever run across the guy, his next beverage of choice is on me. (and yes...I've got a 3.5 year old daughter, myself. This story strikes a chord.)

Buzz said...

As a father with two daughters, I can say the temper of my runted youth that I've managed to well control as a 97th percentile male would be difficult to extinguish in such a situation.
Hell, I'd be lucky if the police weren't forcibly dragging me away from using shredded perp parts as spice worm thumpers while STILL weaving a tapestry of profanities that would put someone's eye out.

Broken Andy said...

If I was on that Grand Jury I'd have a lot of questions for the father. Like, "Why didn't you set his corpse on fire?" And, "You had a pocket knife, did it not occur to you to gut him alive?" You know, things like that.

Ken O said...

New York: Hear a woman's cries for help and turn up the radio to drown them out. Texas: Your baby cries for help and you beat the sumbitch to death with your bare hands. Why do we give a rat's ass what the idiots who elected Bloomturd think?

Greg Tag said...

Tam and friends:

Never fear. Texas Penal Code Sec 9.32 and 9.33 allow the use of force, including deadly force, to prevent the imminent commission of the crime of rape or aggravated rape.

The father was legally justified in "defending another" in this case, its just that the weapon used was fists.

The District Attorney of Lavaca County will present the case to the Grand Jury sitting at the County seat of Shiner; the Grand Jury will let her finish her presentation and then vote to no-bill the guy. They will also perhaps treat him to a six pack of excellent.

The baby-rapist will never do it again; how many other little girls has he violated in the past? This is a little justice for them, too.

If someone does NOT understand the absolute justice of a father defending his daughter, and is instead worried that this human garbage was treated " unfairly ", then I just say go back to whatever insane asylum you left, this is Texas , and nobody here gives a damn how you bleeding hearts do it in Joisey or Noo Yawk City or San Fran.

My ancestors came here to be free of that kind of thinking.

Regards

GKT
Plano, Texas

docjim505 said...

Regarding the predicted attitude of Texans toward the father (i.e. medals, honors, and BBQ):

It strikes me that this is an indicator of how our country has changed over the years, and not for the better. Maybe I'm a romantic, but it seems to me that men who rid us of violent criminals used to be celebrated on a regular basis. Now, they are second-guessed and likely subject to some serious criminal proceedings.

When did we stop thanking and start locking up men who do the rough work for us???

Josh K. said...

Doc I'm going to say about the time we, the general public, turned over the responsibility of keeping us safe to the police.

Didn't you get the memo?
;-)

Tam said...

Ray,

"Tam, on your side of the river, If you must second guess if you can defend a baby frome a rapeist, you need to (1) get your mind right."

1) If you read that post and thought I was "second guessing" anything, it says less about Indiana's judicial system than it does about Kentucky's educational system. ;)

2) I only moved to IN from TN four years ago, you Border Yankee, you. :p

fast richard said...

I spent yesterday with my daughter. I'm glad to see the overwhelming support for the father in this case. If there are places where this guy would be in big legal trouble, those places have bad laws. I think he is in the clear in Texas.

docjim505 said...

Josh K,

Pretty sure it went into File 13.

Cargosquid said...

If it had been me...killing him would have been a mercy....my wife would have been angry that I didn't save him for her...and a dull spoon.

Never fall into the hands of the women.

Goober said...

However, his daughter will never have to doubt her worth. She watched Daddy put down a rabid dog with his bare hands and rescued her from a monster.

YOu know, I was thinking about this, too. What about the daughter? I've known two rape victims in my life, both of whom had more or less "gotten over" their pain from the incident, and both of them confessed to me that the one thing - the ONLY thing - about the rape that left them feeling the heeby-jeebies occasionally was that the guys that did this to them were still alive, and were probablystill getting their proverbial jollies from the memory of what they did to those women.

What better way could this father show his daughter what she meant to him and that she is important to him than to risk everything he is and could possibly be to make sure that the man who hurt her doesn't ever get to relive what he did to her with a smile on his face?

That the world has monsters is a lifetime guarantee. That Heaven provides an avenging hero-Dad is a righteous reflection of what justice should look like.

The father of a sexually assaulted child should be an avenging hero, and whatever he does to enact his vengeance should recieve full legal immunity. And no, I am not speaking in hyperbole, because if anyone ever hurt my Evie I'd need all the immunity I could get my hands on.

Anonymous said...

I think SSS, would have worked well in this situation. Shoot, Shovel and Shut-up! Why involve the authorities.

sobriant74 said...

"If I was on that Grand Jury I'd have a lot of questions for the father. Like, "Why didn't you set his corpse on fire?" And, "You had a pocket knife, did it not occur to you to gut him alive?" You know, things like that."

This comment made me laugh so hard I spewed.
That being said, if you point at me and ask either of me kids what my job is they will both answer without hesitation "to keep me safe". I've been telling them that since birth and I mean it. The only thing I would have done differently is to have buried the guy out behind the barn. Of course I was raised in SC by a Texan, YMMV.

Windy Wilson said...

I don't think there's much of a case for aggravated assault. The father was unarmed and so had no force advantage to threaten the man to stop HIS assault/rape, so the only alternative was to keep applying force with the fists until the threat no longer existed. Unfortunately (for the rapist, that is), the threat did not cease to exist until the rapist did, too.
There's the duty to stop a fleeing felon, too, in the case where one had already begun to restrain him, and it would have been a breach of duty to stop until the felon could no longer flee.
This instance of homicide certainly falls into the category of what Colonel Cooper referred to as "praiseworthy".

Mr. Fixit said...

Update in case folks didn't hear, Grand Jury returned a finding of No True Bill.

I've played armchair quarterback many times and joined in with the chorus of "shoot and reload and shoot some more".

But let's remember that a father had to step across a line and will be forever changed. No matter how righteous it was, no matter how correct, no matter how necessary, A man was forced to take a human life. He will carry that with him for life.

I have heard that the father was in tears when he talked to the police, as much for the daughter as the killing.

He was right to do what he did. That it was right doesn't make it easy. I hope I am man enough to respond in a similar fashion if called upon. I hope and pray that he finds peace with what he was forced to do.

Mr Fixit

Josh K. said...

Thanks Mr Fixit for the reminder.

Shepherd K said...

That little girl is going to hero worship her daddy right up until she tries to find a prom date. What teenage boy in his right mind is going to ask her to the dance knowing her dad gave someone a well deserved, terminal beat down?