Friday, December 19, 2008

Gun myths...

Things that grind me to a halt:

1) "I want one o' them Class 3 guns!"

There is no such thing as a "Class 3" gun. If you want a machine gun, then what you want is a "Title 2" or "NFA" firearm. You would purchase it from a "Class 3 Special Occupational Taxpayer", which is a dealer in NFA weapons, as opposed to a "Class 2 SOT", which is a manufacturer, or a "Class 1 SOT", which is an importer. Saying "Class 3 gun" makes you sound goofy.

2) "If you own a machine gun/have a C&R FFL, the ATF can come in your house whenever they want!"

Wrong. Not without a warrant they can't. And with a warrant, they can come in your house whether you have a buzzgun/03 FFL or not, nicht wahr? If you have a commercial FFL (anything except a Type 03 Curio & Relic collector's license) they can inspect your premises any time during business hours, much like the FDA could inspect you if you were running a meat packing plant or the FCC could inspect your radio station.

If you have a collector's license, on the other hand, they can only request to inspect your books and the guns that are on them, by appointment, and you can do it at your house or go to their office. And I don't know a single cruffler who's ever been audited.

If all you've done is pay the transfer tax on an NFA weapon, the BATFEIEIO can (theoretically) ask you to produce the registration documents (your Form 4 or Form 1 or whatever has the tax stamp on it). They can't come in your house. They can't demand to see the weapon. At least not without a warrant. And if they're going to get a warrant for you, do you think they give two farts in a windstorm whether you have a Form 4?

I was talking to Oleg years back and he was pondering getting his first suppressor at the time, but said he didn't want to be on The List. "Oleg," I said, "if the ATF has a list, you're already number one with a bullet, so go ahead and fill out the Form 4. Buy a can. Live a little."


Weer'd Beard said...

Wow, thanks for that. In all my arrogance I never knew I was "One of those guys".

Thanks for beating my ignorance to death, Tam!

West, By God said...

"I don't know a single cruffler who's ever been audited."

There's a C&R forum I read (I'll find the link later) where a member was audited. He said the agents were very friendly, and since (at the time) he didn't have any C&R guns in his boundbook, he just walked into their office and handed them an empty notebook.

His impression was that it was part of a larger effort to make sure crufflers knew the law, not a fishing expedition or anything.

I've seen other instances of reports of audits mentioned on C&R forums as well, but I've never seen anyone have a problem with the auditors. The biggest problem I've seen is that a lot of BATFE agents don't seem to know the law, and give incorrect information to collectors when they ask questions.

West, By God said...

Here is a link to that forum.

Anonymous said...

Why are silencers (aka, "cans", "suppressors", "moderators", or "hearing protection devices") banned in some states?

Living in the Soviet Socialist State of Minnesnowta I had for years been under the impression that they had been federally outlawed. I was wrong, of course, but since I'd never seen or "heard" of one (ten inpunded) I just guessed wrong.

I would love to get one for my Ruger 22/45 so that my wife and I could actually talk without shouting through both earplugs and noise muffs (belt-and-suspenders for hearing), but that's out of the question in this state. I'm just wondering what the line of reasoning is for banning them here. If in fact it was reasoned at all.

Tam said...

Who can say? A lot of those state restrictions came about back during the Depression era. Indiana can thank Dillinger for getting short-barreled shotguns banned here.

(Doubly weird when you think about it: AOW's are okay; SBS's are a no-go. I could buy a Serbu Super Shorty, but an 870 entry gun would be right out.)

Jay G said...

[raising hand]

I'll plead guilty to talking about "Class III weaponry".

I consider myself corrected, and chastened. Thank'ee, ma'am, it shan't happen again...

(Class III, Class III, Class III!)


Anonymous said...

Up until this year suppressors were banned in Missouri, which most people found ironic because it was perfectly legal to own a Ma Duece. Anyway,the rumor that I always heard was that suppressors were banned because the Department of Conservation was afraid pouchers would use them.

Tam said...

Suppressor regs are often hunting-related rather than violent crime-related.

Anonymous said...

I've heard the same comment as Oleg made when people find out I have a C&R. Sure, there is probably a list, and just about everyone I know is probably on it, C&R or not. So spend the $35 for the C&R and save hundreds of dollars on old "assault weapons" and have them shipped to your door. I chuckle every time the BBT brings we a long box, cause chances here are good the driver would be crapping twinkies if he knew what he was delivering.

List related but not gun:
I've been into radio and electronics since I was a wee lad.
I was maybe 10yrs old when I got my first QSL card from Radio Havana Cuba. For many years after (until I had moved and the forwarding address card expired) I received a Christmas card and a pocket calendar from ol' Fidel. If THAT didn't get me on some list, the next story did.
Continuing my love of things electronic into my teen years, I got involved with phone phreaking. Combining that with my love of shortwave and ham, a friend and I used our "skillz" to call tourist bureaus around the world. We would tell them we were interested in touring their country, and ask if they could send us some maps (which were used to decorate the walls of my bedroom). Well, one day we decided to call Albania. When we finally got someone on the phone who spoke english, we asked to be transferred to their english-speaking tourism bureau. The guy on the phone said they did not have one, because they didn't get many visitors from America. At this time, my friend who was listening on an extension blurted out "That's because you're a bunch of communists!". Well, the guy on the phone took that better then expected, and began to explain they were not communists at all, they were Marxists (Or was it Maoists? It's been 30yrs!) and there was a huge difference. He then said he would send along some info along with the maps I wanted. Well, about 2 months later a CASE of books on Marxism (or Maoism, whatever) showed up at the house. Man, did the crap hit the fan when my dad got home! I dunno what ever happened to that case of books, but I never saw it again. I'm sure that incident thickened that secret file with my name on it though.

Frank W. James said...

Tam: Just for point of clarification, the BATFE CAN request an 'Administrative Warrant' from a judge without showing Probable Cause if you are the registered OWNER of a Title II weapon. THEN they can enter your home or place of business.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Tam said...

True, but I think that if you're that high above the ground clutter on the BATFEIEIO's radar screen, it's kind of a moot point. They'll probably jurisdiction-shop to get their warrant whether you have an NFA weapon or not.

Matt G said...

"[raising hand]

I'll plead guilty to talking about 'Class III weaponry'."

Right there with you, Jay G.

I bow my head in shame.

Anonymous said...

I already sound goofy. Heck, I am goofy. Class III it is!

Having lived with a Cruffler I can tell you from first hand experience that when the BATFE shows up at your door, they wear the ginchiest little polo shirts. No joke.

Anonymous said...

Guilty, ma'am.

(Anyway, Class III, Title 2, NFA, I still can't afford any of that stuff. Well, maybe a 10.5" upper, someday...)

Cybrludite said...

Noah D,

Actually, pistol cans are quite affordable. I'm trying to decide if my big gun purchase for next year will either be a thumpenblitzenboomer boltie or a suppressor for my 1911.

the pawnbroker said...

never did the (licensed) squirtgun thing myself, but i did find it pays to make nice with the sheriff's office armor/rangemaster when he checks out the dept.'s f.a. stash...just as an "observer" of course.

i agree that the atf troops are way too occupied trying to crucify ffl's for missing a dotted i or a license stamp on 4473's to be concerned with things that might, you know, take some effort.

but about this i'm not so sure; ccw's (or cwp's as we call them here), are adminstered by widely divergent government entities from the local police chief, judges, up to as in the case in florida, the state itself...and if the o gang can arrange it, fedgov may end up with blanket issue/deny/revoke oversight. any thoughts on the likelihood of use/abuse of those dossiers?

paranoid? maybe...but then i've never been firmly convinced that all those 4473 a's haven't been maintained along with the c's and n's...


Joat said...

Blackwing1, I think that Joe is right that they were banned for fear of poaching, You can own them if your one of the "only ones", a SOT, and the DNR can have up to 10 for wildlife control. I remember reading that the original reason for including suppressors in the NFA was poaching. I think that going after suppressors would be a good way to use the Heller decision to poke a hole in the NFA, they aren't dangerous more the opposite, and they aren't unusual anywhere where they aren't banned or taxed to death.

Tam said...

Tell me about it!

They arrest you if you don't put a muffler on your car, but make you pay $200 and jump through hoops to put one on your gun.

We should make an OSHA issue out of it; use their own damn weapons against them.

Anonymous said...


Good point...and it'd be fun to have one on my full-size 1911. Pragmatism says that the gun/fun money goes to Surefire first, though.

I'll keep my eyes on those, though.

Rob K said...

So what hoops do you have to go through to get a suppressor? It sure would be nice to have on my daughter's pink stocked Cricket .22 for teaching the kids.

Tam said...

Nothing to it. Most NFA dealers will hold your hand through the process:

1) Fill out Form 4.
2) Get local CLEO to sign off (not a problem in Indiana) and do fingerprints.
3) Send in everything along with check for $200 to BATFEIEIO.
4) Tax stamp arrives back at dealer. Go pick up can.

Rob K said...

Sweet! It won't be soon, but that's definitely in the future.

Robert Langham said...

I did all the paperwork in April and it's late December now. Still waiting for my Yankee Hill Machine works suppressor stamp. The supressor itself has been sitting at the dealer for months.

Anonymous said...

Tam, about 5 posters on (all of whom are behind the Tofu Curtain here in mAssachusetts) recently got audited by the BATFE because they had C&Rs. First time I'd ever heard of it happening, too.

OTOH, a friend of mine in NJ got a visit from a BATFE agent because he APPLIED. Guy wanted to come out and see Mike's apt before it got approved.