Tuesday, May 24, 2011

QotD: It's A Twister, Auntie Em! Edition.

Bobbi on the events in Joplin:
As a practical matter, this kind of event is a reminder that a "Bug-Out Bag" can just as easily become a Bug-In Bag, grabbed as you head to the basement or root cellar. Too, it's a reminder to ensure your emergency supplies are stored in as safe and secure manner as possible -- and that you should be planning what you'd do if you had to do without.
If your idea of preparedness is an SKS, a case of ammo, and a colander to strap on your face, then you're gonna be Sierra Oscar Lima when one of these real-life disasters comes along. After all, you can't shoot a flood. (Well, you can, but like voting Libertarian, while it may make you feel better, it's probably not going to do much good.)

Remember: So far this year over 500 people in the US have been killed by tornadoes, while there hasn't been a single confirmed zombie bite.

81 comments:

Laughingdog said...

Come on Tam. We all read Larry's book. You know the government is just keeping the thousands of zombie bites secret.

DirtCrashr said...

A twister is an airborn Tsunami born from an invisible flying earthquake. I guess the fact that you can see it coming is supposed to make it better than a subterranean, Mole-people event.
I'm gonna get two inline MSR water-filters for the Camelbaks. I have two bug-in bags ready.

Chad Mynhier said...

Why not shoot a flood? There's precedent, of a sort. Xerxes had the Hellespont whipped.

Jenny said...

... but he had to apologize. :p

Anonymous said...

"Well, you can, but like voting Libertarian, while it may make you feel better, it's probably not going to do much good"

That's the best thing I've read all day.

SoupOrMan said...

I always thought "in case of zombies" was code for "in case of natural disasters and peoples' improper behavior in trying to take my stuff after a natural disaster." Maybe that's just me.

wv: fiestse. It's an insect that delivers sleeping sickness, but this time with a south-of-the-border flair! ¡Arriba!

theirritablearchitect said...

Heading to BackWoods after leaving the office for extra water filtration stuffs.

Good on ya for pointing that one out to me, like RFN, Dirt.

wv:moughtfu...without comment

MyGunCulture said...

Oh, there have been lots of Zombie bites. Just not 'confirmed'...

Woodman said...

How much of your life do you spend in your place of work or vehicle?

Even a liter of water and a couple candy bars can make involuntary office time more bearable, even if it's just a couple hours.

In the car I keep the standard car wreck crap plus some dry granola bars (they don't melt) and water.

And always at least one deck of cards, if not two.

Fred said...

"Confirmed" being the primary word. ;)

DirtCrashr said...

It has been confirmed by DNA of Zombie#1 who is now in a NY jail - but it's not exactly a "bite" that does it.

global village idiot said...

Something few people consider is the idea of leaving some things at a friend's/relative's house "just in case."

In the case of the unhappy residents of Joplin, they are without means of any kind. Even had their homes been fully stocked against such an event, they are of no use because the home itself has been destroyed.

I have about a month's worth of goods and supplies at a friend's house next county over. It is unlikely to be affected by any disaster befalling My Fair City, and is within a couple days' easy walk.

Even if I show up at their house starving, shoeless and filthy and in nothing more than my drawers, within 15 minutes of my arrival I will be fed, shod, clothed, bathed and armed, and will have a safe place to sleep for the night.

And because all of the stuff to get me fed, shod, clothed, bathed and armed is my own stuff that was pre-positioned beforehand, I can do all this without putting any financial strain on my friends, or requiring any resource of theirs that that they don't already have in abundance (water, for example).

And since I've worked extensively with them to build up their own preparedness, you might say I've even paid the water bill forward.

gvi

tanksoldier said...

there hasn't been a single confirmed zombie bite.

Then who was voting for Obama?

Seriously, I quite agree. Guns are for keeping what you have, but you have to HAVE stuff in the first place.

Erin Palette said...

I use "zombies" when talking about my preparations and kit for three reasons.

One, it makes a handy catch-all term. If you're ready for the rise of the living dead then any other disaster, natural or manmade, will be a piece of cake.

Two, it's kind of a nifty code if you want to complain about the government etc without getting in trouble. Can't tell you how many times zombies have been stand-ins for the BATFE.

Third, if people find out you're a prepper they often get worried and think you're in a militia, out to overthrow the government, whatever. If you tell them you're prepared for the zombie apocalypse, they'll just think you're an eccentric, if harmless, geek with too much time & money.

atlharp said...

What if my Colander is "Tactical?"

Just walk away!!

The Lord Humungous said...

Listen, Sheila, don't mock my colander.

Anonymous said...

Man I'd hate to see a zombie outbreak.

There are already tens of millions shambling around bent on destruction and searching for brains to consume.

wv: ables
Zombies they ain't

BobG said...

What caliber of gun for a tornado?

Cargosquid said...

Um....this one?

http://youtu.be/w7H3cfZXoZE

wv: prosest

illiterate hippy sign

Joshkie said...

Maybe we should build smarter, to reduce the likelihood of needing a bug out bag.

Greensburg, Kansas anyone?

Just saying,
Josh

Ed Foster said...

http://emergency.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp

You're ahead of the game as usual Ma'am.

Firehand said...

Unless the 'smarter' includes a storm shelter, when a F4 or F5 comes calling you're either in suitable shelter(generally underground) or no longer concerned with anything.

ALWAYS have the 'get home' stuff in the truck; along with just-in-case, I've been caught at work a few times(twice overnight) due to weather or other emergency, and having some extra stuff available helps a lot.

theirritablearchitect said...

Joshkie,

Not to start some kind of flame war about this, but...

Do you have any idea of what it takes to tornado-proof a building?

Before you answer that, make damned sure you've got the right answer, 'cuz I'm pretty sure you're gonna lose this argument.

DJ said...

My bug-out-bag is four five-gallon buckets with lids, and they live in our storm cellar. The contents are oriented around surviving a tornado and the immediate aftermath.

We used it this evening. A relatively nasty tornado missed us by about three miles. Two neighbors and one wet dog joined us, and we kept track of the storm via internet-savvy cell phones, all while sitting on the buckets and on two lawn chairs.

It's springtime in Oklahoma, y'see, and this shit happens then.

Discobobby said...

@theirritablearchitect - I have the right answer. A bigass excavator, a shitload of concrete and steel, and a shitload^10 of cash. Pretty simple, really. What's the big deal? :)

But you save a bundle with the lack of windows and hippie earthship energy savings!

@Firehand - I'd drop the threshold of "kiss your ass goodbye" to EF3 for a direct hit, at least for most residential construction in the last 30 years. Retrofitting a storm safe room isn't as bad as most people think, but IMO an experienced contractor is almost mandatory. You'd be amazed how many people can fit in a closet when the alternative is death.

Anonymous said...

Voting Libertarian can make a change, if enough folks do it! Whereas voting for either major party will not change a thing! America currently has one ruling party with two wings, Rethuglicans and Democraps! Vote RON PAUL in 2012!!!!

Anonymous said...

So, if a tornado was to hit Switzerland, the houses would go as well. The Nuke proof shelter (with the guns and survival stuff) would still be there. It is part of the building code to include 'a place of refuge' when building a house.

Makes sense (if you can stay above the water table that is) to have a strong room/gun safe/shelter/storage room/wine cellar/SWAT-proof refuge built into your home.

The point is valid. The implementation would be more problematic....

Cheers- Rusty

Tam said...

"Vote RON PAUL in 2012!!!!"

You do know he's a Republican, right?

Joshkie said...

theirritablearchitect -

It's a sliding scale of sq. footage vs. building materials, and what the the cost of the safety of your families worth.

If you build cheaply, because what do I care the Feds will bail me out, then I have no sympathy for you.

If you sacrifice safety for sq. footage, then I have no sympathy for you.

To answer your question you can't storm/tornado proof a house (Mother Natures a Bitch), but you can greatly increase your survivability and reduce the cost of repair.

It's all a mater of prioritizing.

Those that want to rely on having enough warning to get in a shelter, good luck with that.

I won't get into a debate with you over building materials or methodology, not someone else's blog. (I'm trying to turn over a new leaf.)

:-)
Josh

Joshkie said...

Ps. Nothing says you have to live or sleep above ground.

:-)
Josh

Tam said...

Check you local zoning ordinances. If your basement doesn't have more than one exit, it might be illegal to sleep there.

pdxr13 said...

Tornado-resistant structure: high-mass/high-strength shell attached to a strong-heavy foundation. Arched steel grid covered in fiber-filled concrete will survive well. As far as I know, no Titan II missile bunkers have ever been harmed structurally by high winds.

The real trick is to get the design approved by your local "planning commission" who wants high-density car-less (parking absent) and yard-less housing units to maximize tax revenue per area of land.

Cheers from the Soviet of Portlandia

Joshkie said...

Tam -

I wasn't talking about sleeping in a basement, more talking about building bellow ground, subject to the local water table. Good point though about having a secondary escape route and checking local building codes. I guess the use of 'nothing' was a little strong if not out right wrong.

:-)
Josh

theirritablearchitect said...

Joshkie,

You've at least a clue about this;
Building something has consequences in rectangular dollars. The more you build, as well as what you build, the MORE YOU PAY.

What happens when can't build a concrete bunker, because the construction cost is too prohibitive, or, gawd forbid, the fucking Gummint won't let you?

Crucis said...

Many of the buildings and homes in Joplin were wiped out clean down to the ground---including a couple of schools. The modern designed hospital survived somewhat but is now uninhabitable and can't be repaired due to the extent of the damage.

Some of the questions coming to the surface is changing the building codes to make structures more tornado survivable or at least more damage resistant---sorta like the earthquake codes in California.

Also don't forget about Reading, KS. It did have around 250 homes and was wiped off the map. The whole town is gone. They've been overlooked by the MSM.

Crucis said...

Just as I finished typing my last comment, the sirens went off here near KC. Several small tornadoes were seen on the ground plus numerous funnel clouds over the southern and central parts of KC moving north following the state lines.

A funnel cloud/tornado was seen 3 miles to the SW/W of us and we activated our shelter program---grab cats, stuff in cat carriers and store them under the stairs. Gather up all the guns, our fire safes and laptops and stick them in the gun safe. Grab the bucket of batteries, our cell phones, my two 2M/440 handhelds and clear more space under the stairs.

Under the stairs is a sorta storage closet. We emptied it pretty quick!

Now, we have to put all the stuff back.

Better than the alternative though.

Jim said...

The modern designed hospital survived somewhat but is now uninhabitable and can't be repaired due to the extent of the damage.

Which leads to the argument of building it light knowing that building it tornado-tolerant is impractically expensive. I suppose this would apply more to areas that rarely but consistently get hit, while areas that get hit more often would be candidates for building it tornado-tolerant the first time.

Jim

DJ said...

Jim, the Joplin hospital is still standing. The windows were blown out (or in), thus resulting in a thorough trashing of the interior, but the structure held up; it didn't come crashing down on the people inside it. That is "tornado tolerant" construction, but it's not "tornado proof". The goal was to save lives, and it worked. The hospital can be rebuilt, but lives can't. The standard to which the hospital was built makes a lot of sense to me.

Tremaine said...

I don't have a colander. Will a cheese grater work?

hektor said...

It's amazing. I was gifted a colander when I moved to my apartment. I didn't know what to do with it. It seems to be another dish to dirty instead of using my hand. Now it has a purpose. I must spray paint it black.. or or... dark earth.

theirritablearchitect said...

hektor,

Chrome-plated or polished to a bright, reflective shine.

Decidedly un-tactical, but it's keeping with the authentic look.

Oh, and wear black leather.

Larry said...

Not a single confirmed zombie bite...yet! But why take chances?

Joshkie said...

theirritablearchitect -
Question: what's prohibitive? If more contractors used ICF's & other durable building methodologies the costs would come down. Plus in our bloated housing market it was cheeper to build new. I'm not sure what the margin is now I haven't crunched the numbers in a couple of years.

But, we've turned into a 'I want my McMansion and I want it now' Sociaty. My list of books to read:
"The Not So Big House" by Sarah Susanka.
"Creating the Not So Big House" by Sarah Susanka.
"The Concrete House" by Pueter A. VanderWerf.
"prefab modern" by Jill Herbers.
"Great Houses on a Budget" by James Greyson Trulove.
"The Smaller Home" by Dan F. Sater.
"sustainable architecture low tech houses" by Arian Mostaedi.
"Off the Grid" by Lori Ryker.
"Building the Japanese House Today" by Rap Brackett (My Fav.)
Just a little research in just those book can get you the house you want at the price you can afford.

Spending more upfront can usually be recouped or even save you money in the long run.

:-)
Josh

theirritablearchitect said...

Joshie,

I hardly need a dissertation on building technology, from you or anyone else; I do this stuff everyfreakinday, dude. I've either been formally studying this stuff or actively practicing for twenty years. Save it.

Secondly, though you may be correct on one or more points, implementation is something else entirely, and getting ANY contractor to even LOOK at something they've never done before will get you one of two things; a much higher price for the work, regardless of the ease of application, or, half-assed, shoddy work, or possibly both.

Look; I'm with you in spirit on this, but you MUST understand that there are forces at work in this market that have pushed toward certain means and methods for construction, and some are so much so as to have become tradition, such as Western framing in the US and Canuckistan, which is good at doing a bunch of things well (assuming the designer and builder know what they are doing), but surviving shear winds at 300+ MPH aint one of them. Come to think of it, I'd seriously doubt that most residential construction, from any corner of the Earth, would stand up to that sort of punishment, save for something that was specifically designed as a "bunker" of some sort, but again, that's something beyond the capabilities or desires of most, I'd think.

That's not to say that it's impossible to build something into a regular house that's both affordable and survivable, and there are services and products out there that can surely do that, but it's not something that's at a commodity level yet. You're not going to pick up your hurricane or tornado-rated shelter at the Home Depot...just yet, and that's a huge part of that "prohibitive" jab the you missed with.

Joshkie said...

theirritablearchitect -

Prohibitive = Hard.

Who the hell said life was suposed to be easy or cheep.

Prohibitive = Excuse.

Oh, the market forces are keeping me from what I want... boo who. I don't have to MUST anything.

When did we becomes such whiners. This is going to be difficult and hard so I better just live with the status-quo.

This is why I shouldn't engage people in conversation. It brings out my tendency to misanthropy.

:-(
Josh

Joshkie said...

Ps. Why would I use a contractor that hasn't work with the building material I want used, and if it not in common use of courses it going to be more expensive time consuming to find some body.

Sigh...
Josh

Joshkie said...

Ps. You might be suprised what's on the prefab steal and concrete markets, if you haven't looked lately.

Most people will settle for what's put out in the housing community market; which is built cheaply and sold at premium prices. Or, it was like that before the bottom fellout. Not sure what it's like now.

Oh well,
Josh

theirritablearchitect said...

Poshie,

"You might be suprised what's on the prefab steal and concrete markets, if you haven't looked lately"

(Yawn)

You might be surprised at this bit, there isn't anything that you think you know that I don't already know about this stuff, by a factor of about 100.

As for the rest, you've deliberately missed the point, which brings to mind another piss-ant from another blog who's been a continual shithead, for years, in this exact same manner.

Joshkie said...

theelitistassarchitect -
(See I can have fun with names to.)

Full of yourself much?

If by deliberately missed the point, you mean not agree with you an kiss you ass then you are correct. I've run across people before who do things poorly for 20 years. I've think you might be another.

You want to say the the current state of construction and building methodology in regards to sever weather structures is prohibitively to expensive for the common man. This is where a good architect would design something that would work and bring down costs. Not just except the satus quo as fact.

But what do I know. I'm just a poor schlub that knows enough to look for answers not excuses.

:-)
Josh

Tam he poked me. I didn't start this one, and yes I know I didn't have to rise to the bate.

DJ said...

"I didn't start this one, and yes I know I didn't have to rise to the bate."

That's "bait", not "bate".

But you did rise to it. "Bate" would have been better; look it up.

"Most people will settle for what's put out in the housing community market ..."

Yes, they will. Why? Because, while the destruction meted out by a tornado is horrific (been there, seen that; my brother and his sister-in-law have both lost houses to tornados), the probability of any particular house being damaged by one is very, very low.

So, a prudent person here gears up for the possibility (meaning put a storm cellar in the back yard), and lets insurance (i.e. share the risk and share the expense) take care of the probability.

It works. Insurance rates here are low, which reflects the low probability of filing a claim, and death rates here are low (surprisingly so), which reflects the preparedness of the population at large and the skill of the forecasters at providing warning.

The proof is in the pudding, as it were. I live squarely on the bullseye, which is the Oklahoma City area. My family, that is, my ancestors and their descendants, have been here since 1910. Out of hundreds of people over a hundred years, only one house has been lost to a tornado.

"Prohibitive = Hard."

and

"Prohibitive = Excuse."

No, prohibitive = the customers are not willing to pay the extra cost.

It does not make economic sense to build each home to withstand a tornado, and that is why it isn't done.

Firehand said...

You'd be amazed how many people can fit in a closet when the alternative is death.
Oh, yeah. During the 05/03/99 tornado in OKC my phone rang:
"Are you ok?"
(me)"Uh, yeah."
"Sorry, think I got the wrong number.(pause)Where are you?"
"Northwest OKC."
"What's it doing there?"
"Little wind, little rain, that's it."
"Well, I'm in Midwest City in a storm shelter with the family, twelve neighbors and three dogs, and it sounds like hell outside."

Joshkie said...

DJ -

So, Your excuses are:
1. Low probability of it happening to you, so you're willing to gamble with your families life.
2. Insurance is low so if I do lose my house I want have to pay the full cost to recover it. I'll just pushh the cost onto the larger group thats paying in for the same chance. More gambling. (Where's the Personal Responsibility.)

"No, prohibitive = the customers are not willing to pay the extra cost." = an Excuse. Yes, I know the definition if the word. Thank you.

Everyone (all of two People) keeps giving me excuses. No ones given me a reason why it "can't" be done.

:-)
Josh

Joshkie said...

Before anyone feels the need to point it out I misused the word except. I should of used accept in this sentance, "Not just except the satus quo as fact."

I most humbly ask forgiveness for my ignorance.

:-)
Josh

DJ said...

Well, Joshkie, let's take this one piece at a time, shall we?

"So, Your excuses are:"

Excuses FOR WHAT? Read on.

"1. Low probability of it happening to you, so you're willing to gamble with your families life."

Read my earlier post above, dated 05/24/11.

Your (ahem) analysis of my situation, and my mind, is precisely backwards. The truth is that I long ago analyzed the probability of needing protection from tornados at my house, found it to be quite low, and so put in place what was needed to insure my family's safety without spending more than was needed to do so.

My family has much experience with the aftermath of tornados. Lives are important, stuff is not. This is America, where you can always get more stuff. So, our plans are oriented around saving lives, and our experience is that this works quite well.

Live storm and tornado tracking in the Oklahoma City area is state-of-the-art, and it is astoundingly good. We have live doppler radar and airborne observers such that everyone can know, in real time, where tornados are and where they are headed. So, we KNEW that a tornado was on the ground, growing larger, and was headed STRAIGHT FOR US. The ETA from that warning was about 25 minutes. Our bug-out kit was already in our storm cellar where it belongs, we had already gathered up our computers (the notebooks are replaceable, the contents are not, and we would need them if a storm hit), checkbooks, files, cameras, and so on, and we were in the storm cellar in a few minutes.

We were safe long before the heavy rains and hail hit. By prearranged invitations, our neighbors on both sides joined us. There was plenty of room, and all but two had seats. We watched the tornado's progress via the live streaming output of the local TV stations on cell phones. The storm veered to the east and missed us by three miles, but had it hit us head-on, we would have been safe, as were those who did likewise but didn't escape the tornado.

So, your statement that I am "willing to gamble with [my] families life" is belied by the facts, and you should have known better than to say so from my previous comment. Jumping to conclusions is not a virtue.

"Insurance is low so if I do lose my house I want have to pay the full cost to recover it. I'll just pushh the cost onto the larger group thats paying in for the same chance. More gambling."

That's what insurance is for. It is a business, and it is indeed gambling. Selling an insurance policy is placing a bet, with an expected return that is positive. Buying it is also VOLUNTARY (we own our home, free and clear), and it works well.

"Everyone (all of two People) keeps giving me excuses. No ones given me a reason why it "can't" be done."

I have done NOTHING that I have to apologize for, and so I have no reason to give excuses for anything.

I'll grant you, houses COULD be constructed such that an EF-5 tornado would leave them intact. But, the simple fact that something CAN BE DONE is not sufficient reason to do it. I have explained why this is not done, and the reasons I have given are very good reasons, well borne out by observable reality. If YOU think it should be done, then it's up to YOU to tell us why.

"This is why I shouldn't engage people in conversation. It brings out my tendency to misanthropy."

You're right.

Joshkie said...

DJ -

I never asked you to apoligize for anything.

An excuse is any stated reason for not doing some thing justifed or not.

You are gambling that everything will go your way, and hope for you and your families sake it does. In the last month it didn't work out so well for around 300 people, and thats not counting serious mdical injuries. I did read your previous post, and my point is I don't think its enough.

Some questions about insurance and the cost of losing your stuff i.e., your house. Do you have an emergency fund for food an living expenses? Do you know how long the adverage pay out takes? Are you planning on staying with the red cross or with family and friends. Even if you stay with family and friends it will be a burden on them. Do you know how much the state or Fed will pay to clean up the mess? Do you worry about putting the rescue workers in danger if the have to pull you out of you shelter/basement? (all come from tax dollares that could be going to pay down dept)
If you lost your house would I see you on the news crying about the tragedy of losing your house, and that I need to give to the red cross to help all though effected.

Yes, I'm a cold hearted basterd. I don't have a problem helping someone if I think they did all they could for themselves.

Your and others actions and in actions have consequences and costs, and sometimes they don't just effect you. I do hope you don't have face them.

As to my not giving 'whys.'

The first thing I post was this, "Maybe we should build smarter, to reduce the likelihood of needing a bug out bag." There's an implied 'why' in that.

Then later I said this, "Spending more upfront can usually be recouped or even save you money in the long run."

I even gave a book list so you and other could look into it for yourselves.

If you need more 'whys' here some more.

1. Murphy an O'Tool Laws. Why do people put so much faith in a system working as advertised. God forbid anything does happen it's an added layer of protection.
2. I feel that the money spent on clean up and recover could be better spent on paying down aour national and state depts.
3. The wasted resources to replace and rebuild your house and stuff is unnesessary. (The only people I see not backing this one are those in the building traids looking for job security.)
4. The cost is realy not that prohibitive the last time I crunched the nubers it only raised the cost around 15 to 30 dollars a sq. foot. (This is for rough finished: foundation, walls, electric and plumbing.) You can reduce the over all cost of the house by looking at low cost alteratives. Do you realy need granite counter tops and hard would trim all over?
5. Reduced cost of genral maintenance and repair over the life of the house.
6. If done right the house will be energy efficient for a reduced cost in your utilaty bills.

I rest my case,
Josh

Ps. Sorry I didn't mean the last post to come off as a personal atack on you or your family. that was a big fail on my part, so sorry again.
:-(

Joshkie said...

Ps. Missed a question.

Do you know how long it will take to rebuild your house after pay out?

Bloger at my first draft.

:-)
Josh

Bill in NC said...

What I found interesting is how much more of the structure remained intact if the siding was masonry instead of vinyl.

If my best option to ride out a EF4/5 tornado was a closet under the stairs I would prefer to be in a house sided with brick, not vinyl (the latter often look like a bomb was detonated within)

DJ said...

"If my best option to ride out a EF4/5 tornado was a closet under the stairs I would prefer to be in a house sided with brick, not vinyl (the latter often look like a bomb was detonated within)"

Bill, it depends on the strength of the tornado. For F3 tornados and higher, it would make no difference.

See if you can find photos of the obliterated houses near Piedmont, OK, in the storm that happened two days ago here. Their typical construction is wood frame with brick veneer clear to the eaves, and they look like they were filled with natural gas and detonated. They were hit by an F3 tornado.

Go here and see the descriptions of how the strength of a tornado is deduced from the damage it causes:

http://www.tornadoproject.com/fscale/fscale.htm

Note the description of an F5:

"Strong frame houses lifted off foundations and carried considerable distances to disintegrate; automobile sized missiles fly through the air in excess of 100 meters; trees debarked; steel re-inforced concrete structures badly damaged."

Back on May 3, 1999, winds were clocked by doppler radar at 318 mph about a half mile down the path of the F5 that ate my brother's house. I've seen videos where tornados have stripped the asphalt off the surface of a road.

If you are seriously considering the matter, I suggest a prefab concrete storm cellar. A crew of three people installed one in our back yard in two hours flat, timed from their arrival to driving away with my check. It cost me $2,055.00, complete. These things have been saving people's lives here for over a hundred years.

DJ said...

Tam, if I've double posted my latest comments (they didn't appear the first time), then I apologize. It's late, and I'm tired, and I forgot that Blogger sometimes does that.

Mea culpa.

Kristopher said...

Discobobbie: You are overthinking it. Dig a hole with a backhoe. Drop an old small shipping container in it. Build a staircase down with cinderblocks and bury it.


Tam: We don't sleep in that basement ... we just have sex there. That is a rumpusroom, not a bedroom. Prove that we sleep there.

Tam said...

Kristopher,

:D

theirritablearchitect said...

Gee, I step away to, ya know, work, and look what happens.

Joshie is still sticking his fingers in his ears on this, I see.

Oh well, no one so blind as someone who refuses to see, I suppose. I'd write something to completed refute just about ALL of what he's trying to prove, but it's a lost cause.

Oh, and DJ, nice form.

Joshkie said...

No one so blind as thinks they see but doesn't.

Joshkie said...

Ya, I win by default. Which is a good thing cause he say he was just about to refutiate "just about ALL what I was trying to prove."

Mostly what I did was state my opinion, ask why it can't be done my way. The only thing he's come up with is , It's to expensive which is a road block. Not an insurmountable obstacle.

He typed all in caps so obviously I was going to be in big trouble, so I guess I escaped by the skin of my teeth.

:-)
Josh

Joshkie said...

Tam -

I know I said I wasn't going to do what did anyways. Sometimes the monkey dance is just to damn fun. Even when the shit starts to fly.

Sigh...
Josh

DJ said...

Part 2

"Yes, I'm a cold hearted basterd. I don't have a problem helping someone if I think they did all they could for themselves."

Yes, you are a cold-hearted bastard. Apparently you wouldn't help someone who saved his family but didn't do so in your preferred manner. I had no idea you were so special.

Here, we help each other. We're like that.

"Your and others actions and in actions have consequences and costs, and sometimes they don't just effect you. I do hope you don't have face them."

Of course they do. Everything about living involves a tradeoff. I believe I have made a very good tradeoff in this matter, and I can face anyone who thinks otherwise. Even you.

"The first thing I post was this, "Maybe we should build smarter, to reduce the likelihood of needing a bug out bag." There's an implied 'why' in that."

There is an implied tradeoff in that. Before you suggest making houses stronger to resist tornado damage, perhaps you should come and see in person, up close and personal, just what tornados can do. You might form a different opinion about what it would take to make a house safe in a tornado. I have no such illusions.

"Then later I said this, "Spending more upfront can usually be recouped or even save you money in the long run."

"I even gave a book list so you and other could look into it for yourselves."


I looked into it long ago. It was part of deciding whether to build or buy. Buying and adding a storm cellar was the result.

"Murphy an O'Tool Laws. Why do people put so much faith in a system working as advertised."

My system worked as designed. I'm an engineer, and what I do generally does.

"I feel that the money spent on clean up and recover could be better spent on paying down aour national and state depts."

Natural disasters happen. Are you suggesting the mess they cause should not be cleaned up?

"The wasted resources to replace and rebuild your house and stuff is unnesessary."

Yup, you really are suggesting that. Dude, "cold-hearted bastard" doesn't even come close, and you pinned the label on yourself. Stay away; we don't need you here.

"The cost is realy not that prohibitive ..."

Ah, the magic numbers out the arse method. I know it well.

Again, come and see in person, up close and personal, just what tornados can do, even to very strongly built buildings, and tell me the cost is small to make it work.

Have you ever seen a tornado throw a bulldozer through the air? I haven't, but I've seen the result. I have no desire to pay for, or live in, a building which can withstand such a tornado.

"Do you know how long it will take to rebuild your house after pay out?"

Here, it takes about three to four months to build a fine house. You should have seen how fast THOUSANDS of houses were rebuilt after the May 3, 1999 outbreak.

"I rest my case"

You've made no case, in my unhumble opinion. Yet again, come and see in person, up close and personal, just what tornados can do, even to very strongly built buildings, and you'll understand why I state that.

theirritablearchitect said...

Sometimes the monkey dance is just TOO damn fun.

Get it the fuck right, you knuckle-dragger! Learn the fucking language.

Oh, and Joshie, you've not won anything, simply by proclaiming such.

Piss off, shithead.

DJ said...

Joshke, have patience, please. I've posted a two part response three times, and only the second part appears. I'll keep trying.

theirritablearchitect said...

Too = As well, also or Many/Much

To = preposition

Is that clear enough for you, Joshie?

DJ said...

Part 1 a

"I never asked you to apoligize for anything."

No, you didn't. Read on.

"An excuse is any stated reason for not doing some thing justifed or not."

I'll quote from The Free Dictionary online, which is whose definition I used:

ex·cuse

tr.v.

1.
a. To explain (a fault or an offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood

b. To apologize for (oneself) for an act that could cause offense

n.

1. An explanation offered to justify or obtain forgiveness.

Now, apply that to your statement:

"So, Your excuses are:
1. Low probability of it happening to you, so you're willing to gamble with your families life."


Hence the notion of me apologizing for putting my family at risk. I haven't done so, and so I have no need to apologize for it. Now do you get it?

"Do you have an emergency fund for food an living expenses?"

I have been retired for ten years. I live on the income my investment portfolio produces. A tornado would not affect that.

"Do you know how long the adverage pay out takes?"

It depends on the insurance company. Members of my extended family have experienced two house fires, one flood, and two tornados. In each case, the initial payout was a considerable sum to survive the initial aftermath, and it required less than 24 hours. Other payouts came later, when an initial assessment was made of the loss, which takes a few weeks. The final payout came when long, detailed lists of personal property that was lost were compiled and filed. The policies covered actual replacement costs for such, and a year was allowed to compile such a list.

I used a digital camera to compile a CD full of thousands of detailed photos of EVERYTHING I own, organized in folders by rooms, so that I can compile such a list easily. A copy is in my safe, which I believe will withstand a tornado hit, and another is in my brother's safe, which is four miles away.

DJ said...

Part 1 b

"Are you planning on staying with the red cross or with family and friends."

With my extended family, who all live in this area.

"Even if you stay with family and friends it will be a burden on them."

It is a burden that is cheerfully born. We're like that here. My extended family has BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

This is Oklahoma, not New York, not Chicago, and not L.A. If you don't live here, then I doubt you'll understand.

"Do you know how much the state or Fed will pay to clean up the mess?"

Whatever it costs. Been there, seen that. It is what FEMA is for. They did a fabulous job here in 1999.

"Do you worry about putting the rescue workers in danger if the have to pull you out of you shelter/basement? (all come from tax dollares that could be going to pay down dept)"

No. I don't expect to be injured, just as people who took shelter as I did and were hit by the tornado a few days ago were not injured. I am fully prepared to stay put in my cellar for days if needed. Further, local rescue organizations such as fire departments have lists of where storm cellars are, and so they know where to look. Point is, we would not be in a hurry, therefore there is no need for danger to rescuers.

"If you lost your house would I see you on the news crying about the tragedy of losing your house, and that I need to give to the red cross to help all though effected."

No, I would decline to be interviewed. I am a very private person.

DJ said...

Hah! That finally did it.

DJ said...

"Ya, I win by default."

No, Joshkie, you don't win by default. We have responded; we have not defaulted.

"Mostly what I did was state my opinion, ask why it can't be done my way."

I responded that it could, but it won't, and I explained why it won't.

Your thesis is that it should, and when I stated:

"If YOU think it should be done, then it's up to YOU to tell us why."

... you declined to do so. You stated:

"As to my not giving 'whys.'" [emphasis added]

... and then stated:

"I rest my case"

And you claim a win by default?

Damn, dude, you ought to run for Congress. You'd fit right in.

Joshkie said...

DJ - yes well reasoned.

:-)

Their is an assumption in all that that I don't live in tornado alley, I'm assuming it's because I don't agree with you. I grew up in West Texas and have seen a few my self.

On to excuse, what you gave is one valid definition of the word, it also means to justify an action. To give a reason why you did or did not do something. It doesn't have to mean an omission of guilt, and that was where the confusion came in. Sorry again.

http://m.dictionary.com/d/?q=Excuse&submit-result-SEARCHD=Search

theirritable(as in bowels? Are you having tummy problems?)architect -

Name calling, really. Ok, you're just a big dummy dumb poo poo head. Ok, I guess we're in the second grade now? Sorry if my englash is not to good. I've been studying it and practicing it for 20 some years. You think I would be better at it.

:-)
Josh

Joshkie said...

Sorry, DJ - my declared win was sarcasm directed at mr. Architect.
Not you.

Josh

theirritablearchitect said...

Mr.Babysitter (seriously, that's what you consider yourself?),

I'll take you seriously when you show some evidence that you know what you are talking about.

Joshkie said...

Mr. Architect -

The same goes for you.

Josh

theirritablearchitect said...

Joshie,

Here's the difference; I know what I'm talking about and you don't, and probably never will.

Joshkie said...

So sayes theirritablearchitect, I bow down before him and ask his humble forgiveness.

Sorry one last jab.

My actual reply is on your blog.

Josh (No more post on this bog on this subject.)

theirritablearchitect said...

You were talking about running calculations and square footage costs earlier (I started laughing)...where are these?

How do you know your are making correct assumptions?

Did you vet any of your answers or conclusions?

Do you have any training on this subject, formally or informally?

I'm sitting here, looking at you with an overwhelming amount of suspicion, Joshie, and just about everything you've spouted has done nothing more than dig your hole deeper.

theirritablearchitect said...

Hey MisterSecurityGuard,

It just dawned on me that I need to ask you one last question; What brought down the World Trade Center towers?